Posted by ykloh > 2014-11-18 19:53 | Report Abuse

One of the reasons for the large discount is that local investors like to see return periodically in the form of dividend. If Icap can pay dividend twice a year to provide a yield close to fd interest rate the share price should improve and the gap narrowed.

Posted by fong7 > 2014-11-19 03:16 | Report Abuse

yes, i agree fully. We should take care of the share price too (aka taking care of shareholders), not just handling the fund. Just like any other companies. Not just handling their business well, but also it's important to have a good IR department to take care of shareholders. It is just not fair to shareholders if the share price depress for years (icap case, at least 4 years). What if a shareholder needs to cash out for unpredictable case?
Paying moderate dividend is one of the best way to handle share price issue. If ICAP pays 3% yield according to its NAV, I am very sure the share price will not as depressing as today. I'm looking at a discount of less than 5% from NAV actually. A 3% yield for NAV will be about 9 sens, then at today's price, the yield will be 3.75%, which is higher than FD.

Posted by fong7 > 2014-11-19 03:19 | Report Abuse

If ICAP adds one more force on top of paying dividend, that is share buyback, then I am 100% sure the share price will shoot up to closely tracking its NAV. Since by buyback, the yield will definitely increase, and by the ability of TTB, I believe NAV will not decrease much even if market is bad.

Posted by fong7 > 2014-11-19 03:20 | Report Abuse

Waiting 4 years for market to crash is not a genius move. I never see Buffett do this, definitely not as long as 4 damn years!

Posted by Alex Chong > 2014-11-19 09:59 | Report Abuse

There are many restrictions for closed fund. Things are not as simple as you think, fong7.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-19 10:55 | Report Abuse

As a shareholders of closed fund, I don't think we have the duty to think so much, what we expect the fund to grow in value as well as increase in share price.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-19 10:57 | Report Abuse

If not either we let go the shares or the fund being wind up and fund manager got fired.

Posted by samer > 2014-11-19 10:57 | Report Abuse

Holding 60% - 65% in cash while waiting for market to crash is not the solution too ! i.e. no guts

Posted by samer > 2014-11-19 11:00 | Report Abuse

certainly no way to justify to demonstrate your expertise in investing !

Posted by ykloh > 2014-11-19 11:03 | Report Abuse

Some of the restrictions are self imposed and they can be amended. TTB did say that the fund's focus was on capital appreciation as practised in the more advanced markets. But this is Malaysia and the Malaysian mentality must be taken into account. fong7 has made a good point and that's investors' relations; paying dividend is in a way good investors relation practice!

Posted by Green Tea > 2014-11-20 11:14 | Report Abuse

I think there has been plenty of support as well as criticism towards the fund and fund manager. However, some comments need some re thinking..eg: "Mr.Tan, ignore all the 'noise' we will support you all the way!" I don't think this is smart. You mean you will support even if he is wrong? However, asking a growth fund to distribute regular dividend is also not right, since it clearly indicated in its prospectus that it is not a income fund so paying dividend is not in its plan.

Personal attacks on the fund manager is also not warranted, if you think he is a lousy manager then just move on. Although, sometimes the attitude and comments does seem to attract attacks..

In the end, only time will tell.

Posted by Green Tea > 2014-11-20 11:15 | Report Abuse

Some info on the dual listing for those who did not attend the road shows:
http://gmmoneytree.blogspot.com/2014/11/icapbiz-dual-listing-update.html

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-20 15:23 | Report Abuse

Green Tea,you said this infront of him he gets annoyed and he will bombard you with all sorts of petty issues with the support of his loyal supporers.
In future, if any supporters yell at you while you questions him regarding cash conservation, please tell his supporters back "if treated TTB as god, must well make a "Patong of TTB" and bring back home to pray"

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-20 15:33 | Report Abuse

Hahaha,Dual Listing? he talk cocks for number of years already.
How to increase the NAV as well as Share price is the Prime matter.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-20 15:42 | Report Abuse

Dual Listing is to be his excuse to Amend the current M&A of ICAP so that any institution shareholders are not allowed to hold more than 5% of shareholdings of Icap,so nobody can question his performance such as like currently holding so much cash in hand and do nothing except asking his shareholders to be patient since 2010.
If this so called fund manager can still " cari Makan" , I think any tom tick and harry also can be the fund manager.
Keep cash for shareholders since 2010 means shareholders has lost a lot of Opportunity while year in and year out , he is happily collecting his fees without doing anything.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-20 15:53 | Report Abuse

In Fact city of London fund as well as Laxey fund has give him a lot of headache, he is rather worry that if the 2 funds has managed to appoint directors of their choice, pressure will be exerted on him to either find ways to close up the gap of ICAP between NAV and its share price or the worse scenario, he may be kick out by the Board of directors for his failed performance.

Posted by fong7 > 2014-11-20 15:58 | Report Abuse

to be fair, TTB did mention couples of times the O&G valuation is sky high, but nobody care at that time as those stocks are flying high along with IBs non-stop increasing valuation aka TP. But look at it today, they had dropped 30%-50%.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-20 15:59 | Report Abuse

For the benefit and interest of current Icap shareholders, the M&A can be amended to include constant declaration of Dividend and share buy back. But Does TTB care about it? If any shareholders confronted him with this matter his reply always like" You don't know that ICAP prospectus where dividend and share buy back is alloewed.
Rules always can be amended by human, isn't it?

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-20 16:00 | Report Abuse

Further more, fees are based on the percentage of the fund size, if dividend is declared, the fund size getting smaller,so are the TTB"s fees

Posted by fong7 > 2014-11-20 16:03 | Report Abuse

Green Tea, thanks for the dual listing info. I was just about to ask if anyone can share the info as I didn't attend the meeting. However, about the fund's prospectus, as we all used to say, rules are dead and human are alive. We can always make changes to them when required. Look at Apple today. Business is great, and Cook is awarding shareholders by dividend and buyback, which Jobs said he'll not do that. The environment changes, so need adaptation. When ICAP has nothing to invest with huge cash for 4 years, the management should change a little to reward the long term shareholders. Just same case as Apple. With its huge cash, it hardly find any large investment opportunity, and share price valuation has been depressing. So Cook took the step.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-20 16:04 | Report Abuse

So, ulterior motives of TTB as far as I know should be condemned but he always think that his loyal supporters treat him like god, but please be remember support him is one thing, Money in the hand is another matter.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-20 16:08 | Report Abuse

I appeal to Icap shareholders in the even of any amendment of M&A arise, Please Ask TTB to amend the clause of declaration of dividend if company makes money as well as clause of Share buy back

Posted by fong7 > 2014-11-20 16:11 | Report Abuse

Ya, agree. TTB is too proud of himself, this is not good. On the other hand, Buffet seldom gives the impression of such high self-esteem. Buffet does share buyback when he thinks the stock is undervalued. TTB's stubbornness is not a good thing.

Posted by bcllct > 2014-11-20 16:33 | Report Abuse

From how TTB responded to my questions during the recent road show it was clear that he is planning to use ICAP cash to subscribe the Dual listed fund.

However since ICAP explicitly stated only to invest in KLSE, it can not force ICAP share owners to subscribe to the new Dual listed fund which will invest globally.

Therefore the appropriate way is to call for an EGM to vote for a capital repayment which will either be in cash( for those who opt not to subsribe to the new dual listed fund) or in new shares of Dual listed fund( for those who want to subsribe to it)

To see how this might help reduce ICAP discount, assume that the capital repayment is RM1.65 or 1 new dual listed share ( US$ 0.5 say equivalent to RM1.65) for each ICAP share.

This will reduce the NAV of ICAP by RM1.65. Given latest NAV of ICAP @ RM3.03 and cash of ~1.72 and share price of say 2.40 the NAV will be RM1.38( 3.03-1.65) and if share price will also drop 1.65, the ex share price will be RM0.75(2.4-1.65) i.e. the discount will widen to 45.6%! (1-0.75/1.38) from 20.8% (1- 2.4/3.03) currently. Such a huge discount will presumably attract more buyers to come in couple with less seller who want to sell, the net effect is clearly a narrowing of the discount to may be close to 25% say. This mean the price will rise to around RM1.04( 75% of 1.38) or increase of RM0.29!

In summary if you buy 1 share of ICAP @ RM2.40 now and if ( and please take note of IF) what i described above happen you will get a RM1.65 cash back( in about 8 mths time) leaving you a net cash outlay of RM0.75 for one ICAP share of around RM1.04 or upside of ~35%.

For those who opted to receive the new share the result should be similar as the new share plus fraction of free warrant should trade higher than cost since everyone who own the new share can only obtain it at the same cost price hence nobody will sell it for less, at least for the initial period.

Please take note that the capital repayment of RM1.65 is most likely on the high side and if such capital repayment happen it is more likely to be lower than RM1.65. I use 1.65 simply for ease of illustration.

I like to stress that I am not recommending buy ICAP at current price. I am simply sharing what I thought TTB is hinting at when he say the new Dual Listed fund will indirectly help to reduce the ICAP discount.

Posted by 1901 > 2014-11-20 17:20 | Report Abuse

enough la giving him a chance before n it turns out he sit on it... come on Laxey, do something now

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-20 17:34 | Report Abuse

Bcllct, dual listing is not good for Icap Bhd,
1. It involve foreign Exchange, Cost of purhasing shares in other countries normally is extremely high. Just check around with any brokers, to buy Hongkong shares from Malaysia for e.g, each purcase involve 2 brokers(local N foreign) + exchage of currency , so is about 1 plus percentage.and selling also invlove 1 plus percentage.

2.More brokers invlove, imagine if you buy localicap and transfer the share to foreign country, who is going to assist you? you have to open another account in another broker and fees invloved

3.For small fly like us, it sounds great to buy and sell in foreign countries, but cost is not worth it.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-20 17:39 | Report Abuse

1901, I agree precisely what you said, As far as money is concerned,any fund or company needs independent directors to safeguard the interest of the co/fund.
Look at Icap,TTB only interested to appoint pupppet and he is the only one dictate the terms and could not care for those reired shareholders who need regular money for surviving.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-20 17:43 | Report Abuse

I once support Laxey to have other directors of TTB's choice in previous EGM but not succeeded.
See what is the consequences now, cash sit in the company but doing nothing and ask you to wait.
He happily drawing his yearly fees but share price not perfoming.
So what did shareholders get?

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-20 17:46 | Report Abuse

I apppeal to those shareholders who are attending the Coming Adjourned AGM to "Vote Against" Abdul Aziz Bin Tuanku Ibrahim as director of the company who are puppet of TTB.

Posted by kcchongnz > 2014-11-20 18:22 | Report Abuse

Posted by MG9231 > Nov 20, 2014 05:46 PM | Report Abuse
I apppeal to those shareholders who are attending the Coming Adjourned AGM to "Vote Against" Abdul Aziz Bin Tuanku Ibrahim as director of the company who are puppet of TTB.

As a shareholder of icap, I am only concern about what is my return against what the broad market as a whole can provide. Luckily I just become a shareholder again recently and my aim is also to make extra-ordinary return from the market.

To be a shareholder of icap, it is not my wish to have a board of directors paid by us, dong nothing but act as puppets listening to the fund manager, the one who is paid by us too as shareholders. It is not my wish to see my fellow shareholders ridiculed asking relevant questions.

Good value investors do hold huge amount of cash, if the market is dizzy high. But holding huge amount of cash since 5 years ago and not doing anything (I wonder the fund manager spent any time on the fund or not)? The market was too high 5 years ago? I know this is on hindsight, but does anyone really think the market was too high 5 years ago? I don't know what you think, but I remembered vividly 5 years ago all my friends were saying that was the once in a life time investing opportunity.

Granted, the market may be getting too high now. But a value fund manager couldn't find anything to invest 2 years ago, because everything is too high? Come on!

City London and Lexey are other shareholders like me. They just want to have good return of their investment. But why should they be treated badly, by the fund manager? Did icap spent huge amount of icap money in its campaign to get them out of the door?

If you care about your own well being as an investor of icap, your decision in the AGM should be very clear.

Posted by calvintaneng > 2014-11-20 18:27 | Report Abuse

Calvin's Suggestion,

Better Vote Out TTB!

Either MG9231 or KCChongNz can then take over I CapBitz.

Either one also better than this Turn Turn BOO!

Posted by bsngpg > 2014-11-20 18:53 | Report Abuse

Easier said than done. With your logic, I can suggest to vote out Obama and let Republican to lead the country in a much better way.

Luckily, the fact is that majority do not think and agree with you.

Posted by murali > 2014-11-20 20:03 | Report Abuse

bsngpg, u fell in love with TTB ah? Despite his lousy performace for the last few years u still worship him like god.....

Posted by murali > 2014-11-20 20:05 | Report Abuse

Seriously, how's your own investment performance for these few years? Of course if it's worse than ICap then you have your reason to keep on supporting TTB....

Posted by murali > 2014-11-20 20:10 | Report Abuse

To be frank, TTB did a good job during the first few years, after that just sitting there doing nothing much except shouting "Wolf is coming" for years...

Posted by murali > 2014-11-20 20:13 | Report Abuse

I see that you like to believe in those rich and famous like koon yew yin and TTB....I think this could lead u to noway...learn to think independently and use yr brain to analyse...dun simply believe in VIPs..

Posted by murali > 2014-11-20 20:21 | Report Abuse

Mr.Koon is one good example...why u never leant?

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-20 20:29 | Report Abuse

Murali , I totally agree what you said, shareholders must safeguard their own interest by thinking independently. Don't be mislead end by TTB who owns a few shares yet drawing around $7m fees in total, $700,000 advertising fees, $91,000 accounts fee( fee pieces of contract notes).
All the above figures can be obtained from 2014 Annual report.
For advertising fees in 2013 Annual Report, it was merely $20,000

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-20 20:34 | Report Abuse

For a fund house like icap, what sort of advertising required? Looking for employees?
No, he said he runs the firm hisself and outsource the clerical work to others
What objective does he gain to spent such huge advertising fees?

Posted by murali > 2014-11-20 21:15 | Report Abuse

Obviously we have a dictator in iCap....if he is doing a good job then I will just shut up....but is ttb doing a good job till now?if not just ask ttb to fuck off n get the co liquidated...I invest to make money not to love ttb blindly

Posted by murali > 2014-11-20 21:18 | Report Abuse

Bsngpg,I browse thru yr records I believe yr investment result should outperform icap a lot in the last few years....why still support ttb blindly??

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-20 21:43 | Report Abuse

Any tom dick n Harry who hold value stock in last couple of years are easily outperform icap, yet the one who manage icap think that he is the greatest in fund management.

Posted by murali > 2014-11-20 21:48 | Report Abuse

Ttb became a monster n yet still have many retarted die hard fans......you reap what you sow....mg9231 made a good point here.....I believe 90% of us here made better return than icap in the last few years...of course somebody will say long term Investment blah blah blah

Posted by 1901 > 2014-11-21 09:35 | Report Abuse

ttb acted like saving money, icap annual report is the cheapest I've seen but I wonder how they spent like hell writing to shareholders, advertisement in defending themselves. everytime at meeting only untie/uncles la support, we give him a chance, do nothing again.

Let see if untie/uncles still can defend him this time.

I agree that some of you here makes much more cagr return than icap.

Posted by murali > 2014-11-22 07:32 | Report Abuse

Seriously do u think ttb has done a great job since day 1 till now?

Posted by murali > 2014-11-22 08:38 | Report Abuse

发表于 2014-11-21 03:22 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 pierk 于 2014-11-21 03:24 编辑


很简单。如果ICAP能有WB的fund那么强，那不必派息，我宁愿所有现金让你玩。但现在是四年那么长不见业绩。我体谅你市场难以预测，你也不想。但你也得体谅我身为平民百姓小股东，并没有能力长期持有一个不会生蛋的母鸡。我们不是那么富裕的人啊。如果你有宽容心，除了爱自己，也懂得爱别人，那你应该自动派点股息，大家加油一番。然而，我们只见到你从不手软领取基金经理费，而完全忽略股东利益。

将心比心啊，TTB先生。

Posted by murali > 2014-11-22 08:42 | Report Abuse

While TTB happily received his millions RM gaji every year without fail, his loyal supporters received nothing (except the RM0.09 special div last year) while at the meantime has to keep on believing this is long term investment this is long term investment this is long term investment......

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-22 09:54 | Report Abuse

He is shameless fund manager, not doing his job properly ,yet want to dominate the board of directors.
I once heard his ex- staff complaint about him, he makes the investment decision alone.
Currently, he is managing icap bhd, capital dynamic global fund and capital international fund, which according to him, the later 2 funds cover about 40 countries. Do you think he can take care of Icap Bhd wholeheartedly?
What he is interested is to collect his fees and tour around the world and shareholders foot his traveling bills.
That is the reason why he is so worry his puppet director Abdul Hajis will not be elected in this coming adjourned AGM, he even go to the extend of conducting so called road show to appeal to his royalists to come all out to help him.

Posted by moven00 > 2014-11-22 10:07 | Report Abuse

Guys the fact is there. The performance and return is there for you to judge this Icap fund manager performance.
If I'm share holder of Icap, I will vote his crony all out.
I will instead vote in people like Laxey representative in.
We need check and balance.

This TTB is so cocky and even at one point have no shame to claim he's the Warren Buffet of Malaysia. Puiiii.....

Posted by ykloh > 2014-11-22 11:40 | Report Abuse

If a fund manager says that there is no stock worth investing in, then the only logical thing to do is the dissolve the fund the return the money to the shareholders.