Posted by mahorse > 2014-11-25 13:15 | Report Abuse

Please, please....if one continues to have a bear view or bull view or any view for so many years, eventually you will be right.

Posted by wwwcomment > 2014-11-25 13:57 | Report Abuse

7 mils yearly with no kpi to answer? How very nice.

Posted by murali > 2014-11-25 14:38 | Report Abuse

Chanky50, U support TTB for love? As long as Ang Moh (or Pek Moh..who cares) could help me in making money, why not? What's yr objective in investment? To epxress your love and support to TTB blindly? Despite his lousy performnace for the past few years?

Posted by murali > 2014-11-25 14:41 | Report Abuse

Ask yourself a very basic question....what do you invest for? Do you invest for Icap so that TTB can have a good pay and nice car, even though you received nothing much in return? Dude, that's charity not investment....besides, TTB is very much richier than most of us here...

Posted by chanky50 > 2014-11-25 15:14 | Report Abuse

If you think I-Cap is no good and the management is lousy, don't invest in i-cap. This apply to any other stocks, buy something else that you think is better. Frankly speaking I have never bought i-cap before and I will never touch I-cap in the future. The capital return is not expected to be good. There are many other solid stocks such as KSL with projected earning of 70 sens but is selling at 4.61. Farlim selling at 59 sens but has cash backing of 82 sens a share, zero borrowing and has other properties and 243 acres of land. 208 acres is at Kemaman valued at only 15 sens psf. And many others. I may not like i-cap but I do have my respect for TTB.

Posted by murali > 2014-11-25 15:25 | Report Abuse

We are after the cash too...we do not share your "family sentiment" with TTB....After seeing what TTB's behavior like, I certainly do not have any respect for him

Posted by chanky50 > 2014-11-25 15:36 | Report Abuse

Sorry to have mislead you. I have no 'family sentiment' with TTB. The 'family' I wrote is only a figurative comparison for illustration purpose.

Posted by murali > 2014-11-25 15:38 | Report Abuse

Somebody said TTB owns ard 1% ICAP (or 1.4m shares), that comes to ard RM3.36M in terms market value. By holding such a small sum, it could guarantee him RM6M+ every year...at the meantime he can screw major shareholders as and when he likes....sounds fantastic...

Posted by murali > 2014-11-25 15:39 | Report Abuse

You respect TTB but you never support his ICAP...smart....

Posted by murali > 2014-11-25 15:39 | Report Abuse

I have not much respect for him but I support his ICAP...not so smart...

Posted by chanky50 > 2014-11-25 16:00 | Report Abuse

Hahaha, as you have said, buy stocks is to make money, if I can see clearly I cannot make much out of i-cap, why should I touch it. Similarly I never touch unit-trust. I don't know TTB in person. But in the last 35 years of swimming in the stock markets, I came across lots of share analysts and economists. I find that TTB is quite honest and accurate and at least he is not a paid writer (A writer paid by someone to come out with an article for certain purpose). This is only my perception and of course I can be wrong.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-25 16:03 | Report Abuse

Icap fund manager, TTB painted as if the world economy is going to collapse since 2011.
Did he forecast it correctly or not after almost 4 years,While i-3 investors respected contributor KC CHONG happens to be a value investor has made at least 50% returns during the period TTB keep shouting bear market is coming. What does this tells us, Kc Chong is working so hard while icap fund manager drawing 7 million fees but is sleeping on his job.
As a icap shareholder, I am interested my investment returns , nothing more.
Obviously, he underperform, chances should be given to those who can make money for me regardless whether he is a Chinese or Englishman.

Posted by kcchongnz > 2014-11-25 16:24 | Report Abuse

Posted by MG9231 > Nov 25, 2014 04:03 PM | Report Abuse

Icap fund manager, TTB painted as if the world economy is going to collapse since 2011.
Did he forecast it correctly or not after almost 4 years,While i-3 investors respected contributor KC CHONG happens to be a value investor has made at least 50% returns during the period TTB keep shouting bear market is coming. What does this tells us, Kc Chong is working so hard while icap fund manager drawing 7 million fees but is sleeping on his job.
As a icap shareholder, I am interested my investment returns , nothing more.
Obviously, he underperform, chances should be given to those who can make money for me regardless whether he is a Chinese or Englishman.


MG9231, thanks for looking me so up to compare with the Oracle of Bursa. I am no way near his fame. Pai seh pai seh.

But I want to correct one perception of yours. The last 5 years, I think my CAGR is about 25%-30%. That would be more than 300%, not 50% total return as compared to 44% of icap. But mine is a small capital. I use it just to illustrate those aplenty low hanging fruits 5 years ago until even 1 and a half year ago. As you are aware, many people in i3investors here made much more than me.

No, I am not motivated to organize all the transaction notes to show anyone.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-25 16:56 | Report Abuse

Wow, a total of 300% from Kc chong's return in last 5 years. Isn't it fantastic?
I wrote my previous thread based on my memory and what I have read in this forum no other intention.
I also want to higlight to other icap shareholders that TTB is wrong in his forecast, sleeping on his 7million fees job as icap fund manager for past 4 years yet shamelessly ask icap shareholders to support him for the appointment of Tunku Abdul Aziz bin Tunku Ibrahim in this coming adjourned AGM on 30-11-14 at Wisma MCA.9am sharp.

Posted by tonytonychopper > 2014-11-25 17:21 | Report Abuse

Imagine if Kcchong apply fund manager job at ICAP. Yeah~

How many five years you have in your life? 44% gain after a super bull run? When bear comes then breakeven already..


Please, please....if one continues to have a bear view or bull view or any view for so many years, eventually you will be right. +1

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-25 18:46 | Report Abuse

Tony, precisely how many 5 years do an investor have?
But do you think icap shameless fund manager care?
If icap managed by KC Chong I, as shareholder will be 300 % more wealthy now.
Unfortunely, in contrast a total of 24 millions have to paid to the sleepy yet shameless icap fund manager TTB for nothing.

Posted by kcchongnz > 2014-11-25 19:00 | Report Abuse

Managing a fund of a few hundred million is different from managing of my own small amount of fund. No definitely I can't get that kind of return with that kind of money. It is a different ball game.

But my friend in Phillip Capital would have done that with a CAGR of about 22% for 5 years. That would be a total return of 270%. It is still way above 44%.

Posted by samteoh > 2014-11-26 17:52 | Report Abuse

kcchongnz, wahhhh your track record so good. can we propose to nominate you as fund manager to replace ttb ?

Posted by nhy6 > 2014-11-26 17:56 | Report Abuse

chanky50, in total agreement wif u. ur comments r objective n fair. not like some of them here.

Posted by nhy6 > 2014-11-26 21:56 | Report Abuse

MG9231, can propose kcchongnz as successor to buffet ?

Posted by chanky50 > 2014-11-27 10:05 | Report Abuse

Never compare the performance and the investment strategy between small investor and big fund manager. It is a different ball games. Small investor can play until the last minute and still can get out when the bubble burst but big fund has to get out when he sensed danger and time is still good with many buyers around. If i-cap is 100% invested now, it may make another 10% by next year but if the assets bubble burst in 2015, i-cap is going to lose 50%.
Based on a report on 20/8/2014, in US individual investor holding of cash is at 14-year low however Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway cash holding id US$55 billion, an all time high. Warren Buffett has never hold so much cash before, why ? Click http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/20/us-saft-on-wealth-idUSKBN0GK29A20140820 to read the report.

Posted by chanky50 > 2014-11-27 10:14 | Report Abuse

Even between small individual investors, the investment strategy for those having Rm100,000 or less and the investment strategy for those having Rm 1 million or more should be different.

Posted by kcchongnz > 2014-11-27 10:27 | Report Abuse

Posted by nhy6 > Nov 26, 2014 09:56 PM | Report Abuse

MG9231, can propose kcchongnz as successor to buffet


Thank you thank you so much nhy6. So when can I start work?

We stopped somewhere our debate on icap more than two years ago on the same saga. So what is the return of icap since the last time we debate on the same subject of you were so cosk sure that TTB would provide you with fantastic return then? Or do you want me to give you some figures on return of icap two years ago and with the broad index or some other managed funds? Your choice.

Shall we continue to debate intelligently instead of talking nonsense like you just did?

By the way, both of us are shareholders of icap. What is your opinion on my article below:

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/64846.jsp

Am I talking about the interest of the shareholders, you and me, or am I emphasizing on the interest of agent?

Posted by kcchongnz > 2014-11-27 10:30 | Report Abuse

Posted by chanky50 > Nov 27, 2014 10:05 AM | Report Abuse

"Never compare the performance and the investment strategy between small investor and big fund manager. It is a different ball games."


Of course, I am in total agreement with you. In fact I said it first:

Posted by kcchongnz > Nov 25, 2014 07:00 PM | Report Abuse X

"Managing a fund of a few hundred million is different from managing of my own small amount of fund. No definitely I can't get that kind of return with that kind of money. It is a different ball game.

But my friend in Phillip Capital would have done that with a CAGR of about 22% for 5 years. That would be a total return of 270%. It is still way above 44%."

So what about my last statement above about other fund managers?

Posted by kcchongnz > 2014-11-27 10:50 | Report Abuse

nhy6,

Please refer to the price chart of icap and KLCI in my thread,

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/64846.jsp

Two years ago when we were arguing in i3investor, the cumulative total return of icap was about the same as it is now, ie about 35% since 24/11/2009. Whereas KLCI, with dividends, the total return is 49% now. This means icap underperformed the broad index by 14% since two years ago.

So did you get your "fantastic" return you envisaged? Or was it a total appointment?

What about comparing with the unit trust funds? How about this?

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/45121.jsp

So what happen to your hero?

Posted by murali > 2014-11-27 10:54 | Report Abuse

Hero's personal return is very good... rm6m+ over 1% of shareholdings...somemore can screw bosses 99

Posted by kcchongnz > 2014-11-27 10:59 | Report Abuse

Actually KLCI's cumulative return since two years ago is about 19% from 30% to 49%. whereas icap's cumulative return is flat.

Hence the under-performance is a staggering number of 19%.

Posted by murali > 2014-11-27 11:00 | Report Abuse

His personal return in icap is more than 100% everyyear....he is one of the best investor....but not a good fund manager

Posted by kcchongnz > 2014-11-27 11:03 | Report Abuse

Posted by MG9231 > Nov 25, 2014 06:46 PM | Report Abuse

Tony, precisely how many 5 years do an investor have?
But do you think icap shameless fund manager care?
If icap managed by KC Chong I, as shareholder will be 300 % more wealthy now.
Unfortunely, in contrast a total of 24 millions have to paid to the sleepy yet shameless icap fund manager TTB for nothing.

My friend MG9231, this statement of KC Chong managing icap is unproductive discussion. Let get into the real issue with what is wrong with icap fund.

Posted by Jonathan Keung > 2014-11-27 11:12 | Report Abuse

Icap was launch when the market KLCI were down at the low end( if i remember correctly ) At that point of time anybody who have invested will make his money.

Icap (TTB) strategy was ride on the upside when the market recover 2-3 years down the road. Nothing wrong but when the market was see-saw between 2008-2009, 2012-2013

Icap was sitting pretty on the cash instead of investing. you can call it conservative but more like playing safe by TTB . Nonetheless, if you like TTb style of investing than go ahead . If you dont like just dont buy Icap. quite straight forward

Posted by chanky50 > 2014-11-27 11:16 | Report Abuse

In my last 35 years of involvement with stocks, I have seen many stars at the market peaks but I have also seen many dead bodies at the market bottoms. I expect to see more dead bodies at the next bottom. It is good to be cautious. The wolf will finally come.

Posted by Jonathan Keung > 2014-11-27 11:38 | Report Abuse

Yes. bull market everybody can be a hero. but in a market down turn only a few can survived. nonetheless, always play within your means. never borrow or play on margin.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-27 11:47 | Report Abuse

Posted by kcchongnz > Nov 27, 2014 11:03 AM | Report Abuse

Posted by MG9231 > Nov 25, 2014 06:46 PM | Report Abuse

Tony, precisely how many 5 years do an investor have?
But do you think icap shameless fund manager care?
If icap managed by KC Chong I, as shareholder will be 300 % more wealthy now.
Unfortunely, in contrast a total of 24 millions have to paid to the sleepy yet shameless icap fund manager TTB for nothing.

My friend MG9231, this statement of KC Chong managing icap is unproductive discussion. Let get into the real issue with what is wrong with icap fund.

Ok , noted
My intention was to emphasize to other icap existing shareholders a very important point where you can achieve 300% cumulative returns since 2010 but icap was much underperform in the same period.
I am not like others idolize who ever outperform .

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-27 12:10 | Report Abuse

Posted by Jonathan Keung > Nov 27, 2014 11:12 AM | Report Abuse

Icap was launch when the market KLCI were down at the low end( if i remember correctly ) At that point of time anybody who have invested will make his money.

Icap (TTB) strategy was ride on the upside when the market recover 2-3 years down the road. Nothing wrong but when the market was see-saw between 2008-2009, 2012-2013

Icap was sitting pretty on the cash instead of investing. you can call it conservative but more like playing safe by TTB . Nonetheless, if you like TTb style of investing than go ahead . If you dont like just dont buy Icap. quite straight forward

Mr.Jonathan,
Since 2010, he started to liquidated equity and keep cash ,may I ask you how do you know he has changed his style of investment from 2005 to 2009, During AGM, did he discussed or hinted to you that he intent to cash out up to today?
How many existing investors of the company aware of his style changed from 2010 to 2014? Or even from now on?
As a value investing company, other same categories of fund managers can still find valued company in Bursa from 2010 to 2014,, TTB can't, it was either others worked much harder while he was sleeping on his job.
My concerned as an investors is my investment returns compare with similar type of company/fund houses in the same period.
Similarly, if you are a boss, your workers not perform to an agreed bench mark, you just close shop. Switch to other business.

Posted by kcchongnz > 2014-11-27 12:17 | Report Abuse

This Sunday AGM proposes to renominate an existing director to the board. The question asked is should you or should you not?

Then a shareholder must think, has this director been doing something good for the shareholder? He should be nominated again if he has, that is for sure. But has he?

Let us go back say five years ago when the market was severely beaten down.

1)Did icap take the golden opportunity to invest fully in the market?
Why not?
2)If it was not a good time to invest then, when will be a good time?
3)Had the portfolio of stocks icap changed much at all? Why not?
4)If it hasn't changed, has it been performing well?
5)Has anything, anything at all, done with the intention of shareholder value maximizing? Any evidence at all?
6)If I think a board member has not done his job he is paid for, can I vote for not to re-elect him to the board? Mind you I am not talking about kicking him out half way in his tenure.
7) As a fellow shareholder, can I also suggest other fellow shareholder to think deep about this and act accordingly to his owe interest too? In a selfish way, that will take care of my interest too.
8)Who doesn't think of his own interest when investing in a stock?

I also think the market is no more cheap now and it may be prudent to keep more cash. However, I am sure there are many ways shareholder value still can be enhanced, if we have the right people to take care of our interest. Don't you think so?

But do you think the same people will change and care about your interest?

No, I have nothing against anybody. There is no one to pay me to write about this either. i am voicing my opinion as a shareholder.

I really hope shareholders knows what is their main purpose in investing in a stock, if not for his own benefit.

Posted by lching > 2014-11-27 12:27 | Report Abuse

well said.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-27 12:28 | Report Abuse

Posted by chanky50 > Nov 27, 2014 11:16 AM | Report Abuse

In my last 35 years of involvement with stocks, I have seen many stars at the market peaks but I have also seen many dead bodies at the market bottoms. I expect to see more dead bodies at the next bottom. It is good to be cautious. The wolf will finally come.

Mr Chanky50,
Please bear in mind icap supposed to be managed by a professional who has a duty to continuously looking for any under valued stocks in Bursa Malaysia for investment.
He is also paid a total of 24million since 2011 to 2014.
If you are running a trading company , your staff is highly paid for certain interval yet each time you question him his sales result, he come back with zero sales, you just tell him never mind , market is bad , be cautious of bad debt.

Posted by Jonathan Keung > 2014-11-27 12:34 | Report Abuse

just attend the sunday AGm asked the BOard their plans ?

Posted by limko1 > 2014-11-27 12:51 | Report Abuse

Can someone answer 'Why is this director so important that TTB has to go all out to support him retaining his directorship'? What has been his contributions to ICAP? And is he not replaceable?

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-27 13:13 | Report Abuse

Mr. Kc Chong,
I would like to add another question
When he was appointed by icap biz Bhd in 2005 the fees structure were :-
management fees0.75% of NAV
Investment fees0.75% NAV

But in 2007 he formed icap Global opened fund and in 2009 he formed icap international fund,
That means he is paying for 1/3 attention on the icap biz Bhd but fees structure remain the same.

Mr.Kc Chong, your effort for hunting valued company in bursa Malaysia to me, must be is a full time job in order to achieve a satisfactory returns. Is my guessing correct?

Posted by kcchongnz > 2014-11-27 14:03 | Report Abuse

Investing in Bursa is not necessary to be a full time job. It is a fun job, like what Warren Buffett said, he taps dancing to work. He spends a lot of time, reading and thinking.

However, even though fund management is a fun job, you are answerable to the performance of the fund and its shareholders. You are paid by the fund, although Warren just pays himself $100000 a year, despite earning hundreds of million for shareholders.

Few or none investors question Warren because his results shows, not only in good time, but also in bad time. Even that he tells his mistakes and apologizes at his own free will to shareholders of Berkshire Hathaway, every year.

Warren Buffett was ridiculed by many people during the tech bubble time when he didn't invest in any of those fads. But he eventually proven to have done the right thing when the bubble burst. He, however, invested big time in 2009 after the US sublime crisis in 2008/2009. Berkshire Hathaway share price has risen from less than $100000 to $222411 a piece now, or a gain of 122.4%.

Yet he still apologizes his mistakes in his bad investment, year in year out.

Who doesn't make mistakes? Only if you don't do anything then you won't make mistake. But is that the right way to manage a fund, especially all value investors saw the low hanging fruits everywhere at that time. What more of a managed fund, a value fund supposedly to be.

Opportunities missed were gone. There are many low hanging fruits around any more. What more the farmer has to go around the whole world to look for some for other people in waiting, but not for you?

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-27 15:25 | Report Abuse

But the fee supposed to meant for full time job. must ask the board of directors. Isn't it

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-27 17:08 | Report Abuse

Somebody questioning TTB ' s integrity...

http://ck5354.blogspot.com/2014/11/icap-tunku-aziz-oh-icap-tunku-aziz.html

Posted by ykloh > 2014-11-27 21:28 | Report Abuse

TTB, being the paid fund manager, should not sit on the board of Icap. The board should supervise him, check and question his performance. Now he seems to be in control of the board and that's totally wrong. This is a situation where interests are in conflict. Icap should have the freedom to change fund manager if he has not performed well enough, regardless how loud he shouts. He should also not behave like the Icap owes him a living. As a last resort, the shareholders should dissolve the fund and distribute its assets since it is worth more dead than alive.

Posted by benghooi > 2014-11-28 15:50 | Report Abuse

TTB is not on the board of ICAP

Posted by murali > 2014-11-28 15:50 | Report Abuse

TTB appointed the board of ICAP

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-28 16:32 | Report Abuse

TTB to control Icap and in order to treat it as his grandfather's company, he picks directors of his choice.
suka-saka, he speak as fund manager,
suka-suka, he speaks on behlf of board of directors
suka-suka, he speaks as shareholders.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-28 16:40 | Report Abuse

Laxcey Partners and city of Londons who owned 12% shares in the company, wants to appoint a director of his choice to protect they interest in icap, shameless TTB who only owns 1% said, Laxcey partners has an ulterior motives.
Infact, who actually has an ulterior motives? he himself, he draws abt 7million fees in 2014

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-28 16:43 | Report Abuse

What about shareholders interest,Icap share price stagnant around $2.25 to $2.4 in 2013 to 2014

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-28 16:46 | Report Abuse

shameless fund manager got big pay cheques, shareholders(TTB called shareholders as shareowners) get What?????, share price stagnant.