Posted by stockraider > 2020-08-09 15:53 | Report Abuse

But can't u see Icap is dead duck risk leh ??

The TTB has lost his touch on investment for the past 5 years...& put almost all the investment funds monies in fixed deposits earnings 2% to 3% pa, while TTB management exceed Rm 8m pa...despite putting ALMOST everything in bank deposits loh...!!

Surely cost of TTB management fees as a blood sucking dracula will kill ICAP mah....!!

Posted by JohnDough > Aug 9, 2020 2:06 PM | Report Abuse

“In good times, far too many people can be overheard saying, “Riskier investments provide higher returns. If you want to make more money, the answer is to take more risk.”

But riskier investments absolutely cannot be counted on to deliver higher returns. Why not? It’s simple: if riskier investments reliably produced higher returns, they wouldn’t be riskier!

No, I’m sure “risk” is – first and foremost – the likelihood of losing money.

The intelligent acceptance of recognized risk for profit underlies some of the wisest, most profitable investments. When you boil it down, it’s the investor’s job to intelligently bear risk for profit.

That’s it: the intelligent bearing of risk for profit, the best test for which is a record of repeated success over a long period of time.”


Oaktree Capital January 2006 Memo – by Howard Marks

Posted by i3gambler > 2020-08-09 16:46 | Report Abuse

JohnDough,

In general, high risk high return, provided you estimate/calculate the risk correctly.

I give an example:

Two house owners wanted to renovate their house, they call contractors to quote.

Let assume all the contractors are experienced, good in cost estimation.

1) House A:
The renovation is indoor, 100% confirm the cost will be 200K.

2) House B:
The renovation is at outdoor, depending on weather condition, the cost could be 50% chance at 150K and 50% chance at 250K, the average is 200K.

I can tell you, that most contractors will quote lower price for House A, say 240K, and higher price for House B, say 260K.

The same apply to stock investment, but as I said the problem is most people calculate the risk wrongly.

Posted by i3gambler > 2020-08-09 19:25 | Report Abuse

https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2020/08/09/print-more-money-rather-than-borrow-putrajaya-urged/

Print more money rather than borrow, Putrajaya urged.


As at 31st May 2020,

Stocks = 35%
Cash = 65%

If the printing is so much that cause 30% inflation,

Stocks will go up 35%*30%=10.5%,
Cash remain the same,

NAV will go up 10.5% only,

But the KLCI will go up 30%.

No fund should keep so much cash.

Posted by Nepo > 2020-08-13 18:52 | Report Abuse

Too conservative Ttb
Why not buy in Texcycle but recommended buy in in your newsletter..too bad RM 0.25 not buy in

Posted by Nepo > 2020-08-13 18:53 | Report Abuse

Talk too much no use, must ACTION

Posted by Nepo > 2020-08-16 08:32 | Report Abuse

Could u figure out what is happening to this share?

Cash per value is around RM 2.1, NTA is RM 2.85 but share price is RM 1.95

I was wondering who the hell is the seller sold at this price.

Posted by stockraider > 2020-08-16 12:43 | Report Abuse

Thats why TTB should could consider a share buyback like Buffet mah..!!

Very malu mah...as a fund manager putting all into FD loh...!


Posted by Nepo > Aug 16, 2020 8:32 AM | Report Abuse

Could u figure out what is happening to this share?

Cash per value is around RM 2.1, NTA is RM 2.85 but share price is RM 1.95

I was wondering who the hell is the seller sold at this price.

Posted by i3gambler > 2020-08-16 16:11 | Report Abuse

Get the following latest info from the website:
Date: 14th August
Price=1.95
NAV=2.84
KLCI=1564.59

Therefore the CAGR:
For Price = (1.95*1.048/1.03)^(1/14.82)-1= 4.73%
For NAV = (2.84*1.048/0.99)^(1/14.82)-1= 7.71%
For KLCI = (1564.59/911.69)^(1/14.82)-1= 3.71%
For KLCI+3.5%DY=3.71+3.50=7.21%

Let say there were two men wanted to invest 100K on 20th October 2005.
Mr. A bought ICAP and Mr.B bought big blue chips of KLCI.

Now today these two men meet again:
Mr.A investment is now worth 100000*(1+0.0473)^14.82 = RM198,360
Mr.B investment is now worth 100000*(1+0.0721)^14.82 = RM280,600

Mr.B is better off with RM82,000.

But,
Mr.A argue:
I am for for long term investment, I look at the NAV instead of market price, my NAV is 100000*(1+0.0771)^14.82 = RM300,631

Mr.B sarcastically reply:
OK, tomorrow I will sell off all my blue chips and buy ICAP, my NAV will be 280600*300631/198360 = RM425,273.

Hello, NAV is nothing if it can be bought / owned by paying at a much lower price.

Posted by stockraider > 2020-08-16 16:14 | Report Abuse

VERY TRUE MAH...!!

U NEED TO OUTPERFORM CANNOT EVERYTIME PUT IN FD FOR 5 LONG YEARS LOH...!!



Posted by i3gambler > Aug 16, 2020 4:11 PM | Report Abuse

Get the following latest info from the website:
Date: 14th August
Price=1.95
NAV=2.84
KLCI=1564.59

Therefore the CAGR:
For Price = (1.95*1.048/1.03)^(1/14.82)-1= 4.73%
For NAV = (2.84*1.048/0.99)^(1/14.82)-1= 7.71%
For KLCI = (1564.59/911.69)^(1/14.82)-1= 3.71%
For KLCI+3.5%DY=3.71+3.50=7.21%

Let say there were two men wanted to invest 100K on 20th October 2005.
Mr. A bought ICAP and Mr.B bought big blue chips of KLCI.

Now today these two men meet again:
Mr.A investment is now worth 100000*(1+0.0473)^14.82 = RM198,360
Mr.B investment is now worth 100000*(1+0.0721)^14.82 = RM280,600

Mr.B is better off with RM82,000.

But,
Mr.A argue:
I am for for long term investment, I look at the NAV instead of market price, my NAV is 100000*(1+0.0771)^14.82 = RM300,631

Mr.B sarcastically reply:
OK, tomorrow I will sell off all my blue chips and buy ICAP, my NAV will be 280600*300631/198360 = RM425,273.

Hello, NAV is nothing if it can be bought / owned by paying at a much lower price.

Posted by stockraider > 2020-08-16 16:18 | Report Abuse

HOW U KNOW THAT TOPGLOVES WEE WOULD NOT TURN OUT TO BE A PONDAN, JUST LIKE TTB OF ICAP LEH ?

Posted by Vc Looi > Aug 16, 2020 1:57 PM | Report Abuse

stockraider ? are you first day in investment ? 20 billions real cash investment can create Grab which whole valuations of 500 billions..icap is real kiasu fund manager which miss out all bull and bear, that why kept in FD.

Posted by JohnDough > 2020-08-16 17:50 | Report Abuse

“At all times, you have to be asking yourself the question “What is the business worth?” and “What is the intrinsic value of the business?”

Charlie Munger expressed it really well when he said that they made most of their money going long on a few great businesses.

Buffett has ventured into all kinds of derivatives or pair trades, or shorting etc. but clearly he has made most of his money by being long on great businesses.

It is so much easier temperamentally to go long on a business. I generally don’t look at the market until several hours of the trading day have passed.

The temperament or patience comes in part from the way we are wired or the way we can learn, or not learn, from Ben Graham, Warren Buffett, etc.

Warren Buffett has said many times that people either get value investing in five minutes or they won’t get it in five years.

There is something in the human wiring of our brain that, for some of us, makes all the difference in the world right away and the patience that it requires is part of that wiring process.

For others, they may buy into the concept completely, but they temperamentally just don’t have the patience.”


Columbia Business School, Graham and Doddsville Investment Newsletter, Volume II, Issue 2, Summer/Fall 2008 – Mohnish Pabrai

Posted by ahteck85 > 2020-08-18 17:32 | Report Abuse

There is only one party with that much shares to manage the buy/sell. no prize for guessing the right answer.

Posted by Nepo > Aug 16, 2020 8:32 AM | Report Abuse

Could u figure out what is happening to this share?

Cash per value is around RM 2.1, NTA is RM 2.85 but share price is RM 1.95

I was wondering who the hell is the seller sold at this price.

Posted by JohnDough > 2020-08-23 13:31 | Report Abuse

“I never want to pay above intrinsic value for stock – with very rare exceptions where someone like Warren Buffett is in charge.

There are people – very few – worth paying up a bit to get in with for a long-term advantage.

The investment game always involves considering both quality and price, and the trick is to get more quality than you pay for in price. It's just that simple.”


Damn Right! Behind the Scenes with Berkshire Hathaway Billionaire Charlie Munger – by Janet Lowe

Posted by fong7 > 2020-08-28 00:50 | Report Abuse

“I never want to pay above intrinsic value for stock ”。。。buffett.

Ok, let me calculate ICAP's intrinsic value......++--//**......results: RM1. Ok, i'll wait ICAP price to go below RM1 to buy.

Posted by enigmatic [control your emotions, discipline your mind] > 2020-08-29 17:10 | Report Abuse

"Wealth isn't just about filling your treasure chest.
It's also about having peace of mind, security and sleeping soundly at night.
Our funds are designed with this in mind."

Posted by JohnDough > 2020-08-30 12:29 | Report Abuse

“It is unquestionably true that the investment companies have their money more conventionally invested than we do. To many people conventionality is indistinguishable from conservatism. In my view, this represents erroneous thinking. Neither a conventional nor an unconventional approach, per se, is conservative.

Truly conservative actions arise from intelligent hypotheses, correct facts and sound reasoning. These qualities may lead to conventional acts, but there have been many times when they have led to unorthodoxy. In some corner of the world they are probably still holding regular meetings of the Flat Earth Society.

We derive no comfort because important people, vocal people, or great numbers of people agree with us. Nor do we derive comfort if they don’t. A public opinion poll is not substitute for thought.

When we really sit back with a smile on our face is when we run into a situation we can understand, where the facts are ascertainable and clear, and the course of action obvious. In that case – whether conventional or unconventional – whether others agree or disagree – we feel – we are progressing in a conservative manner.”


Buffett Partnership 1965 Letter – Warren E. Buffett

Posted by stockraider > 2020-08-30 12:53 | Report Abuse

Not conventional invested like almost all in FD for few years more than 5 years mah..!!

Posted by JohnDough > Aug 30, 2020 12:29 PM | Report Abuse

“It is unquestionably true that the investment companies have their money more conventionally invested than we do. To many people conventionality is indistinguishable from conservatism. In my view, this represents erroneous thinking. Neither a conventional nor an unconventional approach, per se, is conservative.

Truly conservative actions arise from intelligent hypotheses, correct facts and sound reasoning. These qualities may lead to conventional acts, but there have been many times when they have led to unorthodoxy. In some corner of the world they are probably still holding regular meetings of the Flat Earth Society.

We derive no comfort because important people, vocal people, or great numbers of people agree with us. Nor do we derive comfort if they don’t. A public opinion poll is not substitute for thought.

When we really sit back with a smile on our face is when we run into a situation we can understand, where the facts are ascertainable and clear, and the course of action obvious. In that case – whether conventional or unconventional – whether others agree or disagree – we feel – we are progressing in a conservative manner.”

Posted by JohnDough > 2020-09-06 13:53 | Report Abuse

“Outstanding investors, in my opinion, are distinguished at least as much for their ability to control risk as they are for generating return.

High absolute return is much more recognizable and titillating than superior risk adjusted performance. That’s why it’s high-returning investors who get their pictures in the papers.

Since it’s hard to gauge risk and risk-adjusted performance (even after the fact), and since the importance of managing risk is widely underappreciated, investors rarely gain recognition for having done a great job in this regard.

That’s especially true in good times.

But in my opinion, great investors are those who take risks that are less than commensurate with the returns they earn. They may produce moderate returns with low risk, or high returns with moderate risk.

But achieving high returns with high risk means very little – unless you can do it for many years, in which case that perceived “high risk” either wasn’t really high or was exceptionally well managed.

Consider the investors who are recognized for doing a great job, people such as Warren Buffett, Peter Lynch, Bill Miller and Julian Robertson.

In general their records are remarkable because of their decades of consistency and absence of disasters, not just their high returns. Each may have had a bad year or two, but in general they dealt as well with risk as with return.”


The Most Important Thing Illuminated: Uncommon Sense for the Thoughtful Investor – by Howard Marks

Posted by dumbMoney > 2020-09-06 23:37 | Report Abuse

Years ago, there were 4 closed end funds in Singapore, each managed by one of the Big 4 banks. Even though not much can be said about the managers' performance, they all suffered from persistent price discount to NAV, and were regularly questioned by shareholders on how to narrow the discounts. Unable to correct this, DBS and OCBC threw in the towel and liquidated their funds and returned the money to shareholders without the discount. Overseas Union Securities, managed by OUB, merged with United International Securities, managed by UOB, when the two banks merged. Laxey Partners then came in and pursued the discount question doggedly over a number of years until finally, UOB also gave up the fight and also liquidated. Since then, there are no more CEFs in Singapore. CEF is an endangered specie here.

Posted by cheoky > 2020-09-06 23:54 | Report Abuse

this is fucking performance. even my grandmum can do better than sorchai tan. manager? puii...

how many 10years an investor have? hold until age 70, then tell you hold till 100 years? you shall see light at the end of tunnel.

This is kind of long term investing. no wonder you - mr tan deliver such mediocre to unitholders. those who subcribe to such long term thinking.... i felt sorry for you.

but you can rectify it by sacking your money manager. liquidate it.
your money manager long term performance had been spoken by himself.
ignore the rhetoric. see the performance.

money at age 70 means nothing.
money at age 40 means enjoyment.
this is true.

the dunkin donuts rhetoric is salesmanship only.

Posted by enigmatic [control your emotions, discipline your mind] > 2020-09-07 00:10 | Report Abuse

'Cause we're living in a world of fools
Breaking us down when they all should let us be

Posted by ahhuat56 > 2020-09-08 10:52 | Report Abuse

If you can consistently beat the performance of a professional fund manger, you don't have to engage one. Do it yourself, set up a fund to help others. Then shut up.

Posted by ahhuat56 > 2020-09-08 10:55 | Report Abuse

ICAP has set out its investment objectives and philosophy clearly in its prospectus. Investors should know what they are getting into.

Posted by ahbah > 2020-09-08 12:25 | Report Abuse

"money at age 70 means nothing."

Moni at age 7o still means a lot when we got Lam Bot He Ni to enjoy life !

Posted by dumbMoney > 2020-09-08 22:41 | Report Abuse

Take a look at the historical performance of this fund, 1000+% gains since inception https://www.eastspring.com/mydocs/fs/rtf_e001_fst_en.pdf

Posted by dumbMoney > 2020-09-08 22:45 | Report Abuse

You don't need to be a good fund manager yourself, only need to choose a good one, failing which, just go indexing.

Posted by ahbah > 2020-09-10 18:10 | Report Abuse

ICAP has set out its investment objectives and philosophy clearly in its prospectus. Investors should know what they are getting into.

ICAP got said its investment objective is to put tons of moni in FD n be paid big fat gaji for doing so ?

Posted by fong7 > 2020-09-11 06:40 | Report Abuse

ICAP is the best brain wash machine targeted at dump and ignorant malaysian retail "investors". Surprisingly, more than you can ever imagine, there are so many such people.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2020-09-11 20:24 | Report Abuse

As one foreign fund manager commented, the 'share owners' are like cult followers.

Posted by fong7 > 2020-09-12 06:07 | Report Abuse

dumbMoney, it really is. Just take a look at how this JohnDough react in this thread, his (or her) actions were horrifying, giving me the feel of serial killer. Very scary. Real cult, it is.

Posted by Thinkcarefully > 2020-09-12 07:18 | Report Abuse

Only idiots invest in this counter.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2020-09-12 15:23 | Report Abuse

@Think carefully, yes, those who can't tell the difference when comparing the stock's historical performance against the KLCI, without taking into account the dividend yield of the latter. For marketing purpose, yes, but when pointed out, no answer. In terms of trust deficit, it is not the gross price discount to NAV that tells the true picture. Analysts would take out the cash portion, as cash can always be liquidated at par, and look at the discount to the share portfolio. Cash backing per share is around $1.82, share portfolio is (2.83 NAV-1.82 cash)=$1.01. Market valuation of the share portfolio is ($1.95 share price-$1.82 cash backing)=$0.13/$1.01=0.13 price/book value of portfolio.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2020-09-12 16:36 | Report Abuse

The cash portion, until deployed or liquidated, is an idle asset on the balance sheet, not earning any returns to investors at the current low interest rate, after paying the 1.5% management fee and taxation on the interest. This is the latest quarterly results:
Interest income 1760
Management fees & expenses (1738)
Taxation (357)
So shareholders get zero net returns on the cash portion of the portfolio. It is only assets for the manager's fee income, not shareholders. Nice to look at, that's all for the time being.

Posted by stockraider > 2020-09-12 19:34 | Report Abuse

U r wasting your time arguing with TTB when u have no interest mah..!!

Don be dumb...even u call yourself dumbmoney loh...!!

Posted by dumbMoney > Sep 12, 2020 7:24 PM | Report Abuse

Disclaimer: I have no interest in iCapial.biz other than as a former 'share owner', but TTB made it personal when in one of his investors conference, he claimed that one need not go and study at University of Chicago in order to be a successful fund manager like him. I am from Chicago. Why of all the universities/business schools in the world, he picked on Chicago? That he is better? Take a look https://www.chicagobooth.edu/faculty/nobel

Posted by dumbMoney > 2020-09-12 19:50 | Report Abuse

Stockraider, I agree with you, it is a lost cause trying to unconvince the already convinced. But along the way, maybe a few may be saved, haha. Twenty years ago, people think indexing is for dumb investors, now index fund growth is faster than active funds.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2020-09-12 20:14 | Report Abuse

A better analogy would be how WB would feel if he found out who he has been spoken in the same breath with?

Posted by JohnDough > 2020-09-13 22:55 | Report Abuse

“The primary investment objective of icapital.biz is long-term capital appreciation of its investments.

icapital.biz will select companies where there is a disparity between the company’s market price (in the case of listed securities) and selling price (in the case of unlisted securities) and underlying business values over the medium to long-term.

icapital.biz may also invest in cash deposits and/or in short-term obligations in order to have funds available for general corporate purposes. It may also maintain such cash deposits for defensive purposes or to enable it to take advantage of buying opportunities.

The primary asset that icapital.biz will be investing in will be equities listed on Bursa Securities. Theoretically, the asset allocation can range from 0% equities to 100% equities.

The actual asset allocation of icapital.biz’s investments is a function of its value investment philosophy that is based on two (2) factors, the valuation of the company and its share price.

When the market is undervalued and there are many investment opportunities whereby companies are trading below their valuation, icapital.biz may invest as much as 95% of its assets in equities with the balance in cash and/or near cash assets.

Likewise, if the market is overvalued and there are minimal investment opportunities, icapital.biz’s asset allocation would have a lesser bias towards equities and can go as low as 10-20% for example. The balance 80-90% will be in cash and/or near cash assets.

However, it should be highlighted that certain levels of cash and/or near cash assets will be maintained in order for icapital.biz to have funds available for general corporate purposes, defensive purposes and/or to enable it to take advantage of buying opportunities”


icapital.biz Berhad Prospectus

Posted by TheContrarian > 2020-09-13 23:56 | Report Abuse

Hi JohnDough, are you TTB in disguise? Haha.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2020-09-14 00:02 | Report Abuse

JohnDough sounds like John Doe, the generic name given to unidentified dead bodies by the police departments

Posted by Serra20 > 2020-09-19 00:34 | Report Abuse

It's much more interesting reading the comment than the fund details of this icap. Haha Hi JohnDough should rename yourself as Mr. T. Or maybe u are paid to defense we totally understand lol

Posted by ThePowerOfGlove > 2020-09-19 00:37 | Report Abuse

No movement at all

Posted by ThePowerOfGlove > 2020-09-19 00:37 | Report Abuse

Lagi tidor juga kah

Posted by ThePowerOfGlove > 2020-09-19 00:38 | Report Abuse

Still hibernating juga kah

Posted by ThePowerOfGlove > 2020-09-19 00:38 | Report Abuse

What la

Posted by ThePowerOfGlove > 2020-09-19 00:38 | Report Abuse

Apa daah

Posted by ThePowerOfGlove > 2020-09-19 00:39 | Report Abuse

Don't know when going to move

Posted by ThePowerOfGlove > 2020-09-19 00:39 | Report Abuse

No idea

Posted by ThePowerOfGlove > 2020-09-19 00:39 | Report Abuse

No clue at all

Posted by JohnDough > 2020-09-20 11:57 | Report Abuse

“The flexibility of institutional investors is frequently limited by a self-imposed requirement to be fully invested at all times.

Remaining fully invested at all times certainly simplifies the investment task. The investor simply chooses the best available investments. Relative attractiveness becomes the only investment yardstick; no absolute standard is to be met.

Unfortunately the important criterion of investment merit is obscured or lost when substandard investments are acquired solely to remain fully invested.

Such investments will at best generate mediocre returns; at worst they entail both a high opportunity cost – foregoing the next good opportunity to invest – and the risk of appreciable loss.

Remaining fully invested at all times is consistent with a relative-performance orientation. If one’s goal is to beat the market (particularly on a short-term basis) without falling significantly behind, it makes sense to remain 100 percent invested.

Funds that would otherwise be idle must be invested in the market in order not to underperform the market. Absolute performance oriented investors, by contrast, will buy only when investments meet absolute standards of value.

They will choose to be fully invested only when available opportunities are both sufficient in number and compelling in attractiveness, preferring to remain less than fully invested when both conditions are not met”


Margin of Safety: Risk-averse Value Investing Strategies for the Thoughtful Investor – by Seth Klarman

Posted by stockraider > 2020-09-20 13:44 | Report Abuse

Talk cock so much no use mah....!!

The fact is for the past 5 years icap is underperforming every yr loh..!!

This under performance is obvious when u put 70% of your investable monies into fd loh...!!

Posted by JohnDough > Sep 20, 2020 11:57 AM | Report Abuse

“The flexibility of institutional investors is frequently limited by a self-imposed requirement to be fully invested at all times.

Remaining fully invested at all times certainly simplifies the investment task. The investor simply chooses the best available investments. Relative attractiveness becomes the only investment yardstick; no absolute standard is to be met.

Unfortunately the important criterion of investment merit is obscured or lost when substandard investments are acquired solely to remain fully invested.

Such investments will at best generate mediocre returns; at worst they entail both a high opportunity cost – foregoing the next good opportunity to invest – and the risk of appreciable loss.

Remaining fully invested at all times is consistent with a relative-performance orientation. If one’s goal is to beat the market (particularly on a short-term basis) without falling significantly behind, it makes sense to remain 100 percent invested.

Funds that would otherwise be idle must be invested in the market in order not to underperform the market. Absolute performance oriented investors, by contrast, will buy only when investments meet absolute standards of value.

They will choose to be fully invested only when available opportunities are both sufficient in number and compelling in attractiveness, preferring to remain less than fully invested when both conditions are not met”


Margin of Safety: Risk-averse Value Investing Strategies for the Thoughtful Investor – by Seth Klarman