Adagold | Joined since 2023-09-05

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15 hours ago | Report Abuse

German guy bought at high price earlier. Now he got 2 choice - either keep fighting or cabut. Looks like he want to cabut because he knows he can't fight. No royal family to baack him up, no police or MACC backing very hard to fight. So, looks like he choose to take loss and cabut. If continue to fight he will lose even more.


1 week ago | Report Abuse

Yes, it's okay to do dollar cost averaging for Maybank,maybe not for some other counters. Can buy slowly for long term, especially if it becomes cheaper buy more. We all can make money from Maybank dividends.


2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

Yes, usually the best thing to do for dividend stocks like this is to sit still and quietly watch the show.


2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

A lot of people think that Padu is a waste of time but what to do? PM and his best sidekick wan to do it.


2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

Tengku Kamariah and Malaysians have to support Palestine to avoid atrocities there. Stay away from German Andreas Heeschen because he is supplying arms there.


1 month ago | Report Abuse

German camp is doomed.

Today the war in Gaza is very high profile. As a Muslim country we are fully aligned with Palestinans and calls for ceasefire. Everyday lots of innocent children and women are being killed in Gaza/Palestine. Our German guy keeps manufacturing and selling firearms to the IDF. Thus they will be barred and stopped from doing business in Malaysia involving Malaysian companies like KNM. Voters and shareholders, especially Muslims, will be discouraged from supporting them.

So, despite all the past and future efforts and maneuvres, they will keep failing. Too bad. They have no choice but to try other countries. Malaysia is too tough for them.


1 month ago | Report Abuse

It would be better if a police report is lodged. As shareholders we can't be sure exactly what happened; who did what, whether there is actual wrongdoing. There are many questions and speculation involved. How many shares are involved? Did it affect the outcome materially? Who did it, when and how it was done? I hope the authorities can investigate and clear Tunku's name if someone else did it instead of him. It would be fair, right?


2023-12-15 10:05 | Report Abuse

I thought if they don't disturb the team they can carry out their work to solve KNM problems. Adoi everytime kacau2 how to work?


2023-11-04 12:17 | Report Abuse

At the end of the day, creditors will just ask themselves one question, Is the current management competent and can we trust them to pay us back? Do they have confidence in the management team?

They will ignore whatever other people say, including court drama. Because it is their money and they to collect it back, with or without RO.

If they are confident they will not sue, even without RO. Let's just watch and see. Whether they have the confidence in Tunku's team, especially with Mr Ho and his professionals on board now.

The show actually starts now. Let's see how Tunku perform. Only Mc D and German Team in a hurry to get rid of Tunku and his team. The rest of the shareholders just want to see KNM rise from the ashes.


2023-11-04 12:01 | Report Abuse

Even the boss of a company cannot do as he pleases. He has to see what the other guy is doing. If his competitor works 5 or 6 days a week, he cannot work 4-day week. It would be suicide; his competitors will eat him up. Good luck to America and UAW. At this rate their car industry will masuk longkang.

Solving KNM's external problems is a mammoth task. Now we have former directors who were fleecing and stealing money from the company helping to put the company down for selfish (Borsig) purposes. KNM is being attacked by outsiders and former insiders. What do you expect Tunku to do? He has to put together a powerful professional team to take care of both internal and external problems.

The first step towards solving problems is to be aware of them. Then we can take the necessary steps to solving them. Luckily Tunku has put together a team for that, including that Mr Ho guy that McD for some reason doesn't seem to like. But Mr Ho seemed to have jumped back on board again, much to the chagrin of Flavio and Tan.

It will not be smooth-sailing but Tunku has got back his complete team members to try to move ahead. They have tons of work to do, so much so they don't even have time to sue Flavio and Tan. If they are innocent just let them have the balls to answer in court. Don't run away, the court will go after them if they do.


2023-11-04 11:52 | Report Abuse

Today we see America's auto workers securing their request for 4-day work, with a hundred reasons to justify, legally or otherwise. And they even have a President thrown into the fray to support them. Most embarrassing but they don't realize it.

KNM's situation is the same. What most people don't realize is that we are talking about doing business. And what is the greatest enemy of business? Any idea? Yes, it's called COMPETITION.


2023-11-03 21:38 | Report Abuse

OK, what did I miss? 😁

Yes, there is some drama about Tunku's team regarding the Mr Ho. Now the suspence is over and he is back tohelp Tunku fulfill hispromises. No big deal. Just a lot of hard work ahead. OtisKL is right - talk is easy, when it comes to doing it can be very difficult. But no matter how Tunku has to do what he said. Otherwise his credibility will take a blow. He will have to get his professional team together to execute.

So I believe that is good news for shareholders and myself the small investor for hanging on and not selling yet. Have to wait a longer time, maybe for Borsig to get listed finally.


2023-10-31 16:58 | Report Abuse

Maybe we can say Team Malaysia did their best to save KNM, barring a small misstep or negligence on Tunku's part. Sometimes in life a small misstep can be fatal. I had a young friend who died recently at age 37. He stepped on a rusty nail and delayed consulting a doctor. He just applied some cream and the wound became septic and fatal for him.

I hope KNM can survive this. Tunku's team worked very hard and deserve a break.


2023-10-31 15:26 | Report Abuse

Earlier one member mentioned that if we buy Team Malaysia or Team German also will die. At first I thought his comment sounds funny. Right now, it seems he could be right. We voted for Team Malaysia and they won. Unfortunately, they may still suffer from creditors' wrath and trip themselves on the RO.


2023-10-30 22:28 | Report Abuse


Although Flavio and Terrence Tan kantoi, Tunku side also not completely without casualties. As it is, with the exit of one of Tunku's team mates Mr Ho, the whole project is now endangered. It's understandable bcos when you fight a war you need to expect some casualties. It turns out that Tunku's casualties also quite high...


2023-10-26 10:07 | Report Abuse


Allow me to poke some holes in your statement, "Fossil fuel will be a bygone hot popular thing in the next few years or more." I hope you don't mind. Just for the fun of it. Part of research...

I read an article two days ago. They interviewed all the people owning electric cars, mixed brands from different countries. Now, half of these car owners say they wish to revert back to petrol cars. Adoi... But when they asked Tesla owners all of them say they will not revert back. They are happy with their EVs.


2023-10-26 10:06 | Report Abuse

Now that EGM storm is over the market is quiet. Let's see how they perform first.


2023-10-25 08:40 | Report Abuse

The world is a very messy place now. Not only the wars, but on our financial side things are looking pretty bad at the moment.

We read bad news everyday. It's like preparing us for a big global crash. People are not buying US bonds anymore. Interest shot up to 5% and will directly affect us in Malaysia too. China keep dumping. Oil prices stayed above 80 or 90 for many months now, causing severe inflation worldwide.

America's time-tested printing money strategy seems not working anymore. For some people the situation now seems scary. In Medusa's favourite term - Runnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.......... Hehe...


2023-10-25 07:41 | Report Abuse

As a shareholder I don't know whether it's too much to ask for. Besides doing what they mentioned, is it possible for them to do something more? Like finding another Borsig 2.0 that can make a lot of money? To me, that would be a good vision and mission. In life we must dream big, right?


2023-10-25 07:38 | Report Abuse

Yes, THE ROCK, I try not to do insider trading. It's illegal. But I found out from close sources that KNM management is not doing pump and dump. It's hard for some people to believe, but they actually want to do the business. Otherwise I also won't buy this share.

So let's hang around and give them a chance to perform. Now the dust is settling and we observe there is buying pressure. Some big players are buying. Maybe syndicate, who knows?

The roadmap and timeline are there. We don't need to micro-manage and ask everyday - hey directors, what are you doing today? We only know from their SOA they want to sell off loss-making businesses and list Borsig. Maybe we do a quick check every week or every month to see the progress? My two cents...


2023-10-14 10:24 | Report Abuse

OK, one last piece to help us understand Heeschen guy better.

This article is a fresh coverage of his press event yesterday morning. He says he's going to raise 110 million euros, or RM550 million. If that is for paying RM1.1 billion debt it's going to be haircut. Smaller and unsecured creditors will kantoi.

And another statement in the article accidentally revealed that he's lying. He said he tried to buy Borsig in early 2022 but withdrew in April 2022 because the asking price was not justifiable. Eh... strange, isn't it? He know the asking price from the beginning ma, if expensive then why he still want to buy? After start the tender process, few months later he say expensive lah, don't want to buy.

Also, our Tengku girl is mentioned as leading the German team together with Andreas Heeschen. She left the press conference early due to health reasons.,control%20among%20two%20warring%20factions.


2023-10-14 10:02 | Report Abuse

I hope sharing news from various local and international media is not considered fake news or trolling. Here's more, for your indulgence.

Some of us are concerned; what kind of guy are these two European jokers Flavio and Heeschen. Some shareholders are not worried at all; whoever wins. They think maybe it's better if German win? Give him a chance; Europeans are cleverer than Malaysians. These shareholders don't realize it's not up to us to give them chance; it's up to the creditors. If they don't like these two guys or their plans, the creditors will dapao the company. Kena delisted then. I hope I'm not frightening German fans but it's a fact even though some think that the creditors will also think the same way - give German a chance. KNM is under PN17 with RO to be renewed.

OK, let's take a look at German guy. He is boss of Heckler & Koch gunmaker in Germany. This article will give us some idea how he is going to raise funds for KNM to settle debts. He says he got good jalan to do that, but this article says he can only get interest rate above 8% for his own Heckler & Koch company.

Reminder: Heckler & Koch is gunmaker helping to fan the fire for war.


2023-10-14 09:27 | Report Abuse

Going into the final stretch (EGM on Monday 16/10) we expect the battle to heat up. Team Malaysia given their plan in detail how to lift KNM out of PN17 and set it back on track. Team German last minute still not chet officially state their plans, but gave some hints like obtaining a haircut on loans.

There are some questions most of us are having at the back of our mind. We covered one of two of them earlier. Here's an article that mentions most of the things shareholders are puzzled about.

(1) Why Tengku girl say Mahmud is on her side?
(2) Why German bought only 13.6 million shares whereas Tunku bought 74 million shares?
(3) German say he will borrow more money to settle the RM1.2 billion. At what interest rate will the new loan be, considering the fact that interest rates all over the world is current so high as America is trying to rein in inflation?
(4) German say he will obtain haircut from creditors to benefit KNM? Why does he think that the creditors will like his plan more than Tunku's plan which does not request for any haircut?
(5) Borsig CEO Mr Juergen and Mahmud Taib stated clearly they fully support Team Malaysia. How are they going to work with German Team?

If you are already having overload of news on KNM, you may give this a miss. For me, this is the Battle of the Year in Bursa Malaysia. Probably Battle of the Decade. These stories from both sides are too juicy to miss.

Here you go. Enjoy...


2023-10-13 17:04 | Report Abuse


Exactly my thoughts. That's the logic.

I have sources that tell me the foreign guys earlier oredi tried to obtain funding from Europe but failed. It seems that nobody wants to lend to KNM. We are not exactly a household name in Europe, unlike Borsig.

But I cannot prove what I say. It would be like spreading fake news. So, please ignore what I said. Use your own logic. Do you think Flavio/Heeschen can raise any funds? And, even if they can, what's the point? They would be using those funds to repay existing creditors. And their ultimate wonder strike would be to ask for a steep haircut from the creditors. It's normal for any distressed borrower to ask for haircut. It doesn't take much skill to do that. Only thing is that it will damage the borrower's credibility and honor badly.


2023-10-13 16:29 | Report Abuse

Weekend Fun

It seems that a last ditch attempt was made by German guy to salvage whatever little hopes left in the attempted takeover. Tengku Kamariah invited their fans and reporters to a free breakfast and sumptuous lunch at a leading hotel to tell them about their plans to save KNM. (The other two guys probably malu to spearhead this attempt.)

Too little, too late, right? The EGM is just around the corner. Say so earlier ma, what plans you have. Their best plan earlier is to follow Tunku's plan, plus raise loans from Europe at higher interest to repay current creditors with lower interest. And some hot air on how to take KNM to the peak again.

The joke is that he is challenging Anwar who is delivering his budget today. Hmm... still got reporters so free to do his story meh. 😂


2023-10-13 15:59 | Report Abuse

What happened to the SOA?

The scheme of arrangement (SOA) was ordered by the court and supposed to be held on 12/10/2023. It was subsequently postponed by the court to a later date to be fixed. We thought that was the end of the story for now.

Well, it seems that the management and the creditors went ahead with the SOA despite court adjournment. They did it on an informal, unofficial basis.

This shows that (1) the current KNM management is transparent and have nothing to hide, (2) they are confident their plans to repay all creditors in full without haircut is credible, doable and will be welcomed by all creditors.

According to this article, sufficient majority of creditors support their plans. And, this same plan would receive the same approval when it is tabled officially.

OK, does this give confidence to investors? I bet it sure does. Unlike some people who stated that their plans will not be approved by creditors. This proves that such a statement earlier was mere speculation.

You can read for yourself the details here,,cash%2Dstrapped%20KNM%20Group%20Bhd.


2023-10-13 11:06 | Report Abuse

I think dompeilee gave a fair comment. The performance of KNM for the past ten years is anything but inspiring.

His comment of guilty until proven innocent is tongue in cheek and frustration of an investor. His investing skill is very good with such a good winning record. Clap hand.

To be fair the current management took over less than a year ago. They already hit the ground running but there is lot of shit to clear first before they get back on track.

We can't sack the manager after losing a few games.

Better let Tunku do his work, don't disturb him for a while. Maybe he sell off the loss making businesses then list Borsig see how. If he can't do this as promised then we review again loh. What do you think?


2023-10-11 12:32 | Report Abuse

Fact: German guy is illegal firearms manufacturer and his company Heckler & Koch are now in court in Stuttgard for corruption case.

Fact: Italian guy Flavio is under investigation for fraud and CBT. Got police report lodged against him.

Conclusion: With these two foreign taikohs out of the picture, we are left with Tengku Kamariah to head the business at KNM. And she doesn't hold any shares? Hmm...


2023-10-11 12:28 | Report Abuse

Stunning revelation.

Tengku Kamariah does not hold any shares in KNM! What does that tell us?

I'm not sure how her supporters and people like MacDee34 would feel if they know this. They are expecting Tengku Kamariah to helm the KNM business.


2023-10-08 00:51 | Report Abuse

Besides the German guy dealing with firearms (illegally), we have Flavio who is actually the guy behind this whole exercise. A police report has just been lodged against him. There is a possibility that he will be hauled up to assist in investigations into his alleged CBT crime.

There are some details of that crime which was updated in the same blog that highlighted the police report earlier.

It has an interesting title, "Is Flavio fit to run KNM?" Enjoy...


2023-10-05 18:15 | Report Abuse


Yes, lot of info. But it's good news for us. Price keep going up up up...


2023-10-05 16:03 | Report Abuse

Share price is good. And will continue to go up. Provided the current management continues to be in charge. See, with this confidence level going into the EGM we will continue to make money. Big and small investors, including bilis...


2023-10-03 23:44 | Report Abuse

I hate it when I see comments that the current management is ineffective and we should let someone else try. These guys don't know how much sweat and tears Tunku and his gang have sacrificed to improve things that have been going badly for many years. But I can't blame some of these people because they don't know the actual situation.

All this because of Flavio and previous management gang created a mess that the current management have to clean. And some investors are asking why, if the current management is so good how come it became a PN17 company? These investors don't know that the mess was created by the previous management. This current management didn't create it; they are cleaning it up.

Just talk about money. Tunku and his team have to raise RM20 million just to pay six months of salaries in arrears. And EPF. And back taxes to the Income Tax Dept.

In order to structure the RO and structure the upcoming SOA, they had to pay almost RM3 million to consultants and advisers.

These are the financial challenges that the management have to overcome and they will tell us about it if we ask. If not for all this hard work, KNM would have gone to Holland long ago.

And the sickening part is that we still have to entertain crooks and opportunists who call themselves requisitionists. People who expect them to lead KNM out of trouble are actually knowingly or unknowingly helping them to sabotage the current management's plans. And also our plans to celebrate when KNM share price reach 40 or 50 sen.


2023-10-03 17:00 | Report Abuse


The current board already explained in detail their plans for KNM success and to pay off bankers/creditors. It's mentioned in the blog earlier which can be confirmed with the company. Anyway they will table it officially on 12/10 during their SOA meeting with the creditors.

I'm just curious. What is foreigner new guys plans? Are their plans secret, cannot tell us?


2023-10-03 15:25 | Report Abuse

KNM's plans to repay creditors, protect shareholders and take KNM to new heights especially listing Borsig on SGX will be presented and announced by the management during their upcoming SOA meeting on 12/10/2023.

As outlined in this recent blog post,

What is Flavio/Andreas plan? Are they going to announce it at the EGM? Do they have any plans yet?


2023-09-23 17:55 | Report Abuse

Adoi... no worries, later can buy back some. Still cheap.


2023-09-23 17:09 | Report Abuse

Way to go, Woods... you really do your homework instead of investing blindly. If so this come through investors can make a lot of money.


2023-09-23 16:22 | Report Abuse

I think not so easy for foreign guys to take over. Tunku has very substantial shareholding. Even the syndicates under control, you can imagine. But they not underestimating foreign guys. Now they strengthening their contingency plans.

I believe 16/10 will be uneventful and we will be on track to remove PN17 plus successfully Borsig listing. Just need to hang in there for a while watch the show and see Tunku gang perform.


2023-09-23 11:15 | Report Abuse

Maybe share price go up due to investors having more confidence? After the news of Flavio/Andreas we hope Tunku and his team can continue good performance. They just renewed their RO. Investors look forward to him lifting KNM out of PN17. Then we have big profit when share price big jump. Yee haw......

Actually now we placing our bet on 16/10 EGM. We hope more people will support Tunku prevent foreign takeover. Then they can uplift PN17. And list Borsig on SGX. More profits for us.

This Flavio guy not only making trouble now. He was the guy who deposed the Lee family.

He tried to sell Borsig earlier also, at a low price. And do you know who he was selling to? And that guy can't even pay for it, after numerous extensions and sweet talking. He was trying to sell it to Andreas Heeschen. Haha... what a joke. We can call the company to confirm. It's true. And Flavio is now under investigation for fraud in KNM. That deal is one incident.


2023-09-21 16:38 | Report Abuse

I also curious why online egm. So I call up to enquire.

It seems knm shareholders really too many. It will take a mini stadium for the event. Summore German guy want fast egm so that can quickly remove all directors. So not enough time arrange normal one. No choice online egm loh.


2023-09-20 00:16 | Report Abuse

The news is out. Now we know who is the main culprit behind this fiasco. That German shareholder is just his partner-in-crime. Flavio Porro is the man and he is an ex-director of KNM.

The journalists are efficient...


2023-09-19 20:56 | Report Abuse


Saya copy and paste saja. Mana saya tau tulis? Saya pon tak sekolah banyak. Hehe...

Tapi itu journalist cakap semua betul. Tada fake news. Itu Flavio Porro mmg jahat. Skrang kena investigate. Nanti kantoi kena lokap kita clap hand. Hahaha :)


2023-09-19 13:19 | Report Abuse

In contrast, the current management has a real plan, formulated in collaboration with the bankers. A plan to rescue KNM and place it back on a firm footing for future expansion. The plan is a comprehensive one covering all critical aspects of marketing, production and capitalization.

Shareholders and investors can look forward to a debt-free KNM outfit which will still control Borsig and list it on the SGX. The likely scenario is that PN17 will be lifted within six months by Q2 2024. Share price will then revert to 40 of 50 sen. It will be a windfall for all shareholders and investors who place their faith on the current management's capabilities.

The worst scenario for everyone including the hostile guys, would be receivership and continued PN17, with zero value. Shareholders can kiss goodbye to their stake.
Turning to the creditors side, they have indicated that the German corporate raider is an undesirable shareholder because of fines and sanctions put in place by Western countries for illegal arms dealing. The creditors have done their homework and due diligence while keeping a close tab on the developments at KNM. Local syndicates are riding on the coattails of the corporate raider just to take profits.

The short story is that Flavio screwed KNM and now he is asking his backer Andreas Heeschen to screw it one more round. The current management led by Tunku is ready to take the matter to the courts to prevent this from happening to a Malaysian company.


2023-09-19 13:19 | Report Abuse

It's actually like you're trying to sell your house and you pay for all the legal fees, including for the buyer. And when the buyer is not able to get his bank loan, you pay him more to compensate him for his trouble trying to buy your house. It's a scam, right?

This kind of thing has happened many times before in Malaysia. They call it "Malaysia Boleh" because it's tantamount to fraud. Sometimes it's blatant and involves politicians and the matter is forgotten just like that.

This ex-director Flavio guy now wants to make a comeback into KNM. Good luck to all investors if he can manage to pull that off. It will be nothing less than throwing a mouse into the rice sack.

When the proposed Borsig sale fell through, it caused the cash situation in the company to become so severe that Tunku and his friends had to pay back-salaries, EPF and income tax for staff which Flavio and his supposed buyer failed to pay. And now it seems he has got more plans. We smell a sweet-talking rat. That German Heeschen guy who is his backer actually has got no money, or shall we say no cash, despite being known as a billionaire tycoon. But this is not surprising considering the cash tight situation many rich people and companies are facing around the world right now. The ongoing Ukraine war, high oil prices and inflation are taking a toll on a lot of people. All told, they are not able to mobilize cash right now.

It is easy to see that Flavio's real plan (he calls it long-term plan) is to throw a spanner into the current rescue works so that KNM will fall into the hands of receivers. He then plans to take over from there, within half to one year at the most. That will ease the cash position of his backer, Mr Andreas.


2023-09-19 13:18 | Report Abuse

Nice piece, first hand from journalist...


There is a coup going on at KNM. But few people know that he moment the pirates enter KNM the banks will immediately pull the plug and initiate proceedings to put KNM under receivership. Share price will plunge to zero and investors will lose money. You can bet these so-called new business experts have no long term plans for Borsig, the gem of KNM. They just want to acquire it from the receivers and flip it, hopefully for a big profit.

The guy behind this attempted coup is Flavio Porro. He is an ex-director and he was the one who got the company into this current mess. Think about it. Who is going to pay off that RM1.1 billion debt? Arms dealer Andreas is going around town trying to borrow money. But so far nobody wants to lend to him because he doesn't have a plan to turn around KNM. He just wants to flip Borsig for quick profits.

Flavio is under investigation right now for wrongdoings related to a recent deal to sell off Borsig. Now he is pretending to be a good guy and saviour. His dealing is nothing less than criminal. He signed a one-sided agreement whereby the seller (Borsig) paid for all due diligence expenses. The situation deteriorated when the buyer failed to comply with conditions precedent clauses ie. proof of funds. Despite numerous extensions, that buyer still could not pay up. It ended up with Borsig having to pay a break-up fee of a million euros. Now, how ridiculous is that? That was not the end. All in, the buyers failed to perform and Borsig ended up having to pay 3.5 million euros to call off the deal!


2023-09-18 18:29 | Report Abuse

KNM chairman Tunku very confident. He not scared German tycoon. There must be good reason why he confident. He hold a lot of shares and his performance so far so good.


2023-09-18 10:47 | Report Abuse

Looks like mafia scammer in trouble. Instead of buy low sell high, now they buy high sell low. Like tat lose money lor. Hehehe


2023-09-18 08:39 | Report Abuse

Right. It's difficult to be sure whether rebound or falling knife. If we go by valuation it's about 21 sen, so if it goes below 10 sen can consider buy. But have to take a longer term view and tahan that falling knife. Careful...


2023-09-17 18:05 | Report Abuse

You're right on all counts. But there's a catch. If the creditors get worried they might just take over. Then both sides will lose this wonderful asset. KNM will likely kantoi go down. Then everybody lose.


2023-09-17 14:59 | Report Abuse

We all want to make money. The most popular strategy is buy low sell high, buy on tips and sell on rumours.

But this favourite strategy has some flaws. I'm sure if you are a seasoned investor you would know. Sometimes tips are fake. The most famous one which happened long ago was UEM where the directors gave fake tips to pump up the market. They quickly dumped their shares and lots of investors got hurt. This thing is still happening today to many counters.

A better strategy would be to pick companies with good future potential and prospects. This way, even if they do pump-and-dump, we can still hold on for later profits.

It's logical to think that if a foreigner takes over the company will be in a better shape. Immediately the share price will jump based on this news. So it makes sense to buy. But some investors will second-guess. Is it really true that foreigners can perform better than our Tunku? (It's our "foreign things are better" mentality.)

But looking at Tunku's track record people may not be convinced a foreigner can perform better, or will be more honest. So, our buy-low-sell-high strategy may backfire instead.

It makes more sense to stick to our Tunku and his team and hold on for longer term profits. If the share price jumps once the situation seems stable and investors feel more confident we can still take a lot of profit from there. Don't you think this is a win-win strategy?