"在董事局的心目中，科恩马应该是如马赛地级数的名车，可是目前虎落平阳，股东不但可以用普腾的价钱买到，却还不肯相信它有前者的本钱和素质。

Wonderful statement. Hard to find great jokes in investment nowadays.

Posted by ks55 > Dec 23, 2014 11:43 AM | Report Abuse

Buy Lonbis based on the following:-
1. Bonus warrant 1 for 5. If warrant worth 15 to 30 sen, it work out to be 3 to 6 sen value added to present Lonbis price.
2. Private placement and ESOS at 1.00, effectively provide good cushion for further downside.
3. If start buying at 60 sen, then prepare to buy at 55 sen, then 50 sen, 45 sen etc.
4. Lonbis still making money (provided account is genuine) and paying dividend.
5. Ability to pay dividend means that there is not much cash flow problem.
6. Share price near record low. Less downside risk, high upside potential.

1) Won't the mother share adjust downwards?
2) Really? Why is it now at 60 sen?
3) This is a dangerous thing to do for a lemon
4) Making money? Where is the cash? How has been the cash been used? Why need to keep on asking money from shareholders? Why borrowings keep on going up?
5) How much is the dividend? Where did the money for dividends come from all this while. from free cash flow?
6) Share price has nothing to do with the underlying business. When the intrinsic value of the business is a few sen, even 60 sen is too expensive.

SS661M,

I never strayed from my principle that saving and investing is for retirement and other long term objectives. That is why I agreed with ks55 that

1) "Most important thing is when you want to buy, you must have money...money.....money...

2) and be ready to buy more if price still going south. Have money to buy more... more..... and more........... "

For (1), it doesn't mean investing is for the rich, but for people who has money to invest, and not borrow to invest. One can invest very small with his regular savings. This is my very first principle of investing. Take for example Mr Lee here:

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/61822.jsp

He definitely experienced the numerous margin calls and many of his shares would have been sold at heavy losses during the steep correction recently. The market has recovered substantially since then. but he doesn't enjoy the recovery because of the margin calls. This is a real case.

Number (2) is also the essence of value investing. If you buy something it is because you thought it was cheap. If it goes down a lot, it must be extremely cheap then and why wouldn't you buy more? But this of course you must know what you are doing.

"then you should tell ppl something about fund allocation, but not 100% invested."

Well this topic like many things on investing, is subjective. I know a lot about asset allocation or fund allocation, but this is just a concept, a theoretical concept. You can have that, but you won't learn from me, simply because to me it is more of a marketing tool by financial advisers, not much use in real life, at least for me.

Actually for me to pick winners is not an easy task. I could very well be lucky when my portfolios did so well. I have to acknowledge that.

But one thing I am very sure of is how to pick losers. >90% cf the time correct. If anyone cares to follow me and avoid losers, he will be doing very well in Bursa.

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/45373.jsp

Below are the return of losers in the link above, on real time basis. 95% spot on. The portfolio of losers made a negative median return of 50% while KLSE made 3.3% during the same period.

It will be very good if those do not know anything about investing learn this thingy from me. Yes, like OTB said, I teach and collect a fee. As a matter of fact, i love to teach. The true reward is most (>90%?) appreciates. What more can earn something for the 10-12 hours time I spend a day on it.

No. Company Ref Price 22/12/2014 Gain
1 GCB 1.800 1.040 -42%
2 Ivory 0.550 0.410 -25%
3 LonBisc 0.680 0.595 -13%
4 KNM 0.455 0.510 12%
5 MPCorp 0.550 0.215 -61%
6 CSL 0.750 0.080 -89%
7 Smartag 0.180 0.090 -50%
8 Amedia 0.135 0.055 -59%
9 Hibiscus 1.900 0.880 -54%

Mean xxx xxx -42%
Median xxx xxx -50%
KLCI 1685 1740 3.3%

Posted by ks55 > Dec 21, 2014 08:25 PM | Report Abuse
kcchongnz gave a good, simple and precise FA. When to buy will depend on you acute TA.

Posted by ks55 > Dec 21, 2014 07:42 PM | Report Abuse
Shortlist counters use FA, buying use TA. This is the basic rule.
Most important thing is when you want to buy, you must have money...money.....money...
and be ready to buy more if price still going south. Have money to buy more... more..... and more...........

This ks55 is really a "Lau jiow" or well experienced investor/trader. Look at his second comment here. Good to follow him seriously. Same principle as me, invest must have money money money.

錢 錢 錢 No money no talk, no money no talk. Got money when down buy more, and more and more!

Posted by ccs999 > Dec 21, 2014 06:39 PM | Report Abuse
pintaras, scientex, MFCB, if you follow those, is win stock


ccs999, thank you very much for counting those stocks. I hope you have bought them the first time i wrote about them, not as recommendations or "calls" to buy, but for learning and information purpose. Can I also remind you of the following stocks in my first two portfolios which are published in i3 since two years ago? I give to you anyway.

1) Pintaras +155%
2) Jobstreet +159%
3)SKPRes +100%
4) Prestariang +169%
5) Homeritz +105%
6) Datasonic +250%
etc etc

Actually no meaning just name those top performers. Just to summarize here. 1st portfolio average up 75% compared to KLSE 11.5% less than 2 years. Second portfolio average up 48% in less than 1 and a half year compared to KLSE of +2.1% as now, real time.

Not too bad isn't it?

Date 21/01/2013 22/12/2014
Stock Name Ref Price Price now Dividend Gain % gain
Kfima 2.02 1.86 0.16 0.000 0.0%
Pintaras 1.56 3.80 0.185 2.425 155%
ECS 1.06 1.15 0.13 0.220 20.8%
Plenitude 1.85 2.15 0.12 0.420 22.7%
Jobstreest 1.20 0.32 2.787 1.907 159%
Pantech 0.78 0.76 0.13 0.110 14.1%
SKPRes 0.34 0.630 0.05 0.340 100.0%
NTPM 0.47 0.645 0.07 0.245 52.1%
Kimlun 0.93 1.31 0.1 0.480 51.6%
Prestariang 0.605 1.47 0.16 1.025 169%

Average xxx xxx xxx xxx 74.5%
FTSE Mid70 12294 12687 615 1008 8.2%
KLSE 1632 1738 82 188 11.5%



New 1/08/2013 22/12/2014 Dividend xxxx xxxx
Pintaras 2.495 3.800 0.135 1.440 57.7%
Kfima 2.060 1.860 0.160 -0.040 -1.9%
MFCB 1.700 2.150 0.105 0.555 32.6%
Haio 2.670 2.190 0.220 -0.260 -9.7%
Fibon 0.330 0.370 0.0125 0.053 15.9%
CBIP 2.830 4.087 0.100 1.357 47.9%
Tien Wah 2.510 1.900 0.148 -0.462 -18.4%
Homeritz 0.430 0.825 0.058 0.453 105.2%
Willow 0.530 0.695 0.040 0.205 38.7%
Daiman 2.530 2.680 0.120 0.270 10.7%
Datasonic 0.335 1.150 0.025 0.840 250.7%

Average xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx 48.1%
Median xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx 32.6%
KLSE 1773 1738 72.69 37.7 2.1%
Alpha xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx 46.0%

Posted by truthseeker1 > Dec 21, 2014 05:21 PM | Report Abuse
Got few of KC Chong recommendations now 40% capital loss.
What I know is Prk Corp, BIMB-W, MRCB-W, what else.

Yeah, those stocks above are in my latest portfolio of 14 stocks posted in i3investor. Yeah Perak Corp lost close to 40%, the other two about 35%. Not good. But the portfolio of the stocks has an average loss of 4.3%. However it is better than the broad market of a loss of -5.9% now. See the summary below.

So the portfolio is better than the broad market. Not good but not so bad lah. How I hope my portfolio always make huge amount of gain like my last two. But things cannot be always rosy one.

Yeah what else ah?

By the way how much have you made in your portfolio? Can show lah, before and after?

Stock Ref Price Dividend Price now Total return
Kuchai 1.20 0.00 1.23 2.5%
Prestariang 1.25 0.05 1.47 21.6%
Perak corp 3.69 0.085 2.14 -39.7%
Magni 2.63 0.05 2.56 -0.8%
Latitude 2.57 0.00 3.62 40.9%
MFCB 2.24 0.045 2.15 -2.0%
Padini 1.75 0.055 1.55 -8.3%
Pintaras 2.95 0.05 3.76 29.2%
Scientex 5.74 0.08 7.02 23.7%
Tasco 3.15 0.05 2.62 -15.2%
MRCB Wa 0.275 0 0.180 -34.5%
BIMB W 0.660 0 0.420 -36.4%
Plenitude 3.15 0.06 2.21 -27.9%
Tong Her 2.35 0.06 1.97 -13.6%

Av Portfolio Return xxxx xxxx xxxx -4.3%
KLSE 1844 xxxx 1735 -5.9%
30/11/2013 22/12/2014

Hi truthseeker1, what a coincidence you made a comment shortly after that apaini ravi fellow in this thread despite that both of you seldom made any comments in i3. Have you found your divine truth; the truth nothing but the truth?

Actually regarding your comment on Maybank call warrant, you had made in some time ago and I had responded to you. Just that after that you disappeared. Well here it is:


Posted by kcchongnz > Oct 19, 2014 04:39 AM | Report Abuse X

Posted by truthseeker1 > Oct 18, 2014 08:53 PM | Report Abuse
Maybank C6. Recommendation time 10.5sen. Now 4.5sen Loss 6sen. If follow KCChong advise to invest 960,000shares at 10.5sen, Maybank C6 value will drop to RM43,200 a loss of RM57,600 in less than 2 months. Stock market is not a place for fun(last paragraph), genting casino or gambling is. KC why so quiet on this blog?


Truthseeker? Another new name? I think Troll suits you the most as mentioned by someone before. Take this identity.

How to seek truth when you have been lying and throwing wild accusations instead of contributing something useful in i3investor?

How to seek truth when you have anger and hatred in your head?

How to seek truth when you can't even understand simple English as written in the post?

How to seek truth when you can't grasp the right message in the article which anybody who reads English would be able to? Although of course I don't expect you to understand what a derivative is, and how it works.

How to seek truth when you can't differentiate "Recommendation" and "Discussion of issues"?

How to seek truth when you can't differentiate "Recommendations" and sharing and discussions?

By the way where did you find the word "Recommendation" to buy that call warrant?

Where did you find the phrase "KCChong advise to invest 960,000shares at 10.5sen"?


Finally you did cite something from my article as below:

"Stock market is not a place for fun(last paragraph), genting casino or gambling is"

But why didn't you cite the complete paragraph of mine as below?

"Punters are reminded that this is not an even playground for most people, including you and me. However there may be some fun here as long as you take the financial risk management approach as described above."

What are the true messages behind the complete paragraph? Punters, "not an even playground", "fun". "risk management approach".

Why you so stupid, couldn't understand a thing what i wrote and "invest 960,000shares at 10.5sen on Maybank C6" and lost RM43200, and rant here for some stupid actions of yourself?

Hey, is that the best you can do to try to put me down again? I have written 77 posts in i3investor and posted 4030 comments. Still can't find something, instead of showing your stupidity here?

Posted by ravichung > Dec 21, 2014 03:49 PM | Report Abuse
His other recommedations like KFima, Padini and Cenbond have stagnant as well. I advise others to ignore his calls.

Stagnant? What do you mean by "Stagnant"? Business goes no where? I guess you must be talking about their share prices? You won't understand business. I doubt so. You 100% must be belonging to the following group of people.

“The stock market is filled with individuals who know the price of everything, but the value of nothing.”
- Philip Fisher

Because in all my posting (for fun), I only talk about business, seldom on share prices. I only talk about share price in relation to the intrinsic value of the business, and the margin of safety to buy the share. Like to discuss with me about this stuff, instead of share price? You know, I can't predict future share price, unlike you.

So I don't make "recommendations" or "calls", but share my view on the business. But frankly take a look at Kfima, and maybe Padini too. They are great business, and best of all, selling at cheap price, if you consider the earnings of the whole firm, and the enterprise value of the business.

Guess you won't know what enterprise value or all those stuff are. They are good knowledge. I do agree that knowing those stuff may not make you rich but they are useful and interesting stuff. May be you can join my online course. I can teach you all these stuff.

Posted by ravichung > Dec 21, 2014 03:10 PM | Report Abuse
I bought Homeriz as recommended by KC Chong. But i was totally dissapointed to see it stagnant while other furniture stocks not favored by him gone up doubling in value. I will never again believe him

Hi Ravi, or Chung? Which is which? Long time no see your posting already.

So you bought Homeritz a year ago when I wrote about it and made >40% while the market dropped 5%, and you are disappointed?

Can you elaborate more about your "disappointment"? I guess few here can understand what your "disappointment" is. Investing is so mystifying.

Posted by ravichung > Dec 21, 2014 05:16 PM | Report Abuse

Got few of KC Chong recommendations now 40% capital loss.

Posted by truthseeker1 > Dec 21, 2014 05:21 PM | Report Abuse

Got few of KC Chong recommendations now 40% capital loss.
What I know is Prk Corp, BIMB-W, MRCB-W, what else.

Posted by truthseeker1 > Dec 21, 2014 05:23 PM | Report Abuse

Maybank C6. Please refer to his blog.

Posted by ravichung > Dec 21, 2014 05:24 PM | Report Abuse

See.. i am not the only one who know

Posted by truthseeker1 > Dec 21, 2014 05:21 PM | Report Abuse

Got few of KC Chong recommendations now 40% capital loss.
What I know is Prk Corp, BIMB-W, MRCB-W, what else.

Posted by ravichung > Dec 21, 2014 03:10 PM | Report Abuse

I bought Homeriz as recommended by KC Chong. But i was totally dissapointed to see it stagnant while other furniture stocks not favored by him gone up doubling in value. I will never again believe him

Posted by ravichung > Dec 21, 2014 03:49 PM | Report Abuse

His other recommedations like KFima, Padini and Cenbond have stagnant as well. I advise others to ignore his calls.

Posted by ravichung > Dec 21, 2014 04:43 PM | Report Abuse

Name his outperforming counter then.

Think about it, may be Beta has some use in stock investing. When the market is expecting to go up, buy stocks with high beta. When the pendulum is higher up, change to lower beta stocks.

One can use JeevS's adjusted beta, may be.

Posted by walau2u > Dec 16, 2014 10:07 PM | Report Abuse
Dear KC,from ur portfolio, we can c that the total loss near 20% within short period of time, can we say that your portfolio is less defensive and lack of capital preservation? how do u address this? Just my 2 cents, thanks.

Yeah walua2u, the portfolio I put up about a year ago had heavy loss during the recent sell down. Compared to three months ago, the average loss is close to 30% (not 20%), from a gain of 17.5% to a loss of 11.5%. Compared to the loss of KLSE of 9.2%, the portfolio now suffered a negative alpha of 2.3% (11.5%-9.2%).

The heavy losses are in the two company warrants, MRCB and BIMB. The rest are generally good companies with either good earnings or good balance sheet. So I am not sure why you said is less defensive and lack of capital preservation, and how would you achieve more defensive and better capital preservation, unless you don't invest.

How I wish that I had a crystal ball three months ago that I knew the plunge was coming. Anyone can lend me one?

In a bull market good lower capitalized stock will do much better than the broad index and vice verse.

But at least I am relieved that I am not in margin finance, and having a maximum margin finance three months ago when the market was bullish. Otherwise the leveraged portfolio would have lost maybe 65% since three months ago. I don't know what would the hassle like with the margin finance. But of course i would be perfectly alright if I had sold all of them just before the plunge. Again no crystal ball.

But at least I did not own another favorite portfolio of mine below which has lost a total of 50% now, compared to my 11.5%.

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/62293.jsp

Anyone not losing money the last three months?

Posted by Seek > Dec 14, 2014 10:06 PM | Report Abuse
Thanks KC, got burnt badly long long time ago with margin financing! In a down market, almost every other day got morning call from my banker. Top up n top up until tak boleh tahan! Got irritated , finally sold everything it was a long long time ago! When uncle advocate getting margin financing not too long ago, I mentioned it is not for newbies! N I remember u wrote an article not in favor of margin financing. Lot of things in life we learned from experiences n those days we got no one to advise newbies.
Good to have people like u around here to teach n advise. God bless u.

Seek, I think what you wrote about your own experience above should be used as an example for newbies. Nothing is more real than your actual experience.

However, I doubt many people listen to boring story like yours or mine about the article I wrote. They like to hear success stories, how one borrows and invests with 50% margin finance and made amplified return of 100% in a few months. Those are great stories.

I actually wrote another article here to show how risky investing/speculating with margin finance can do to someone here:

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/61822.jsp

It was another unexciting article about one shouldn’t use margin financing. But with market like this since exactly two months ago, seriously I doubt few who used margin financing like what “Mr Lee” has done would not have experienced the margin calls you have experienced before. He would have been under margin calls numerous times.

I think that is the main reason why the market has been dropping relentlessly.

Posted by Seek > Dec 14, 2014 07:02 PM | Report Abuse

Reno, thanks. What uncle recommend? Just out of curiosity!


Seek, hope you are not looking at the recommendation of margin financing for your share investment. Then that will totally contradict what your accountant son has learned.

Hi Seek, just kidding, just to say hello to you here.

Posted by NOBY > Dec 10, 2014 03:25 PM | Report Abuse

When you say you dont average down your counters, do you put a cap on the maximum exposure of your portfolio to a certain stock ? I m sure that in practice, you are not equally weighted in all the stocks above ?

I once had a stock with 25% weightage. But that was averaging up, not down, and I was very confident with that stock at that time.

But I think it is good to cap it at 20% for a portfolio of 10-15 stocks.

Posted by walau2u > Dec 10, 2014 02:32 PM | Report Abuse

Hi KC, will u consider CIMB or Pchem at the moment, both blue chip look attractive at current price?

First you got to tell me why do you think their prices are attractive as I never follow these two stocks. What valuation metrics do you use?

Even if one had bought a basket of high dividend stocks, he will still get a higher total return than the broad market. And if he can filter off some lemons there, the return will be much better as shown in the following link and its conclusions followed.

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/62033.jsp

"Hence if you had bought a basket of high dividend stocks 5 years ago using the farmer’s method, you are likely to have made a small alpha now as you have seen from the median total return of 12.2%, 1.4% higher than KLCI. However, if you had done a thorough financial statement analysis and valuation to hunt for those high dividend stocks then, you would most probably have chosen the right stocks such as Pintaras Jaya, Wellcall, Dayang, TDM, Willoglen. With those analysis, you would also most probably have avoided investing in the other high DY stocks such as Maybulk, CNI and Eurospan which have negative CAR for the last 5 years. As a result, you would have obtained handsome extra-ordinary return 5 years later which is now."

"Just quote the latest examples where few blue chips such as CIMB, GENT, GENM, MBB were held for many years( ha long term), the return is not rewarding at all. You can work out the % return by yourself if you want to."

When you buy the Blue chips in Bursa, your return will be about the market return. But when you buy value stocks, and generally value stocks are small market capitalization stocks selling at certain value.

Take for example this article below and its conclusions after holding for five years.

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/62822.jsp

"The broad KLCI index has increased from 1260 to 1819 at the close on 24/10/2014. The total return (with the assumption of 3% dividend every year) is 51%, or a compounded annual return (CAR) of the market is 10.6% as shown in Table 1 in the Appendix. The total return of the portfolio of 104 stocks is an average of 181%, or a CAR of 17.6% with a very high standard deviation of 17%. The cumulative average return of the portfolio is hence 3.5 times that of KLCI of 51% and the CAR 70% more than the market return of 10.6%."

The above return is based on a basket of low PE ratio stocks. What if one can do further filtering as described in the above article? The return will be even higher.

So buying blue chip stocks can only give you market return because every funds will try to hold those stocks and hence you can't buy it cheap and hence get higher return.

Posted by wwwcomment > Dec 9, 2014 10:54 AM | Report Abuse

I feel disappointed with the performance of mfcb. Should i average down?

Posted by sbg3106 > Dec 9, 2014 10:59 AM | Report Abuse

KC, how do you determine amount to avg down and frequency?


I practice diversification as I think I can never be like Buffett. So I seldom average down as I could be wrong in my assessment.

If I don't own any of those shares, and I have amply cash which I don't need to use for the next few years, I may consider to buy some.

Mr Lee's portfolio would have been under forced selling due to margin calls. I hope he has followed my advice and have done away with his heavy leverage when I gave him my comment. Otherwise the consequence is no good, no good at all.

Mind you this present correction is nothing, like "a small woe seeing a big woe", compared to the 1998, 2001 and 2009 sagas.

There are many pitfalls in investing. Some of the top pitfalls are over-confidence due to past success thinking that one is so smart, which could most probably due to the right time and at the right place, and then greed in thinking that margin and leverage investing can only amplify returns, and not the other way.

Posted by bsngpg > Dec 9, 2014 09:41 AM | Report Abuse

Systemic risk. When bear stampedes, all counters will be affected with those relatively better managed counters drop in lesser magnitude than those not so properly managed counters.

In relation to this micro perspective on systemic risk, should we time the market in share investment to maximize return?


Of course it is good to time the market that way; buy when it is near the bottom, sell near the high. That is provided you have a Holy Grail investing strategy.

I for sure am unable to do that.

Posted by walau2u > Dec 8, 2014 11:24 PM | Report Abuse

Thanks for sharing, will u sell ur Perak Corp? Thanks.


I have nothing to sell. But at this price I am contemplating to buy. I like to invest in a way where there is little downside but plenty of upside potential.

Yeah, TTB has 73% support. There is no way anybody can go against him for maximising shareholder value. The majority shareholders themselves are happy that their investment in icap way underperformed the market for the last five years. So as a minority, you just have to accept that. It is a democratic country. Minority just have to shut up.

That explains why TTB is so confident that there is no way anybody can remove him as a fund manager, even though he has done nothing for years and earning fat fees. Whatever he says is enshrined in stones. You try to raise any dissent views, you will be booed in the meeting, asked to shout up and get lost. He simply doesn’t have to answer nothing. That is why he becomes so arrogant. You are the minority, and you just have to accept it.

That is why TTB is so confident that even he does nothing and collecting fat fees every year, the majority shareholders will be laughing too. So why not concentrate on his global funds which he can earn higher fees, plus the high fees in icap, and having to do nothing?

Wolves are coming. Yes, definitely, he was right for the last 5 years. The wolves will come one day and he will be right. Meanwhile just relax and earn more fees. No worry, nobody dares to question me.

This is a poison pill. You can’t do anything. Accept your fate, if you choose to. Well, the majority is happy about it, why not you?

Posted by Kevin Wong > Dec 7, 2014 10:58 AM | Report Abuse

Many 'eclectic' investors adopt many of Livermore's methods in stock picking/selling - as much of his market principles are still relevant even today. Nowadays, almost all billionaire mart players, are investors, and most of 'em practices the value investing.


Well said Kevin

The puzzle of deep discount of icap’s share price to its NAV is solved. Human behaviour is strange. Hero worshipping is so deeply entrenched even in investment in the stock market despite all the clear evidences to the contrary.

Yeah, no point to hope for the closing of the gap of share price of icap and its NAV. It may be better to move on.

Investing in Bursa is not necessary to be a full time job. It is a fun job, like what Warren Buffett said, he taps dancing to work. He spends a lot of time, reading and thinking.

However, even though fund management is a fun job, you are answerable to the performance of the fund and its shareholders. You are paid by the fund, although Warren just pays himself $100000 a year, despite earning hundreds of million for shareholders.

Few or none investors question Warren because his results shows, not only in good time, but also in bad time. Even that he tells his mistakes and apologizes at his own free will to shareholders of Berkshire Hathaway, every year.

Warren Buffett was ridiculed by many people during the tech bubble time when he didn't invest in any of those fads. But he eventually proven to have done the right thing when the bubble burst. He, however, invested big time in 2009 after the US sublime crisis in 2008/2009. Berkshire Hathaway share price has risen from less than $100000 to $222411 a piece now, or a gain of 122.4%.

Yet he still apologizes his mistakes in his bad investment, year in year out.

Who doesn't make mistakes? Only if you don't do anything then you won't make mistake. But is that the right way to manage a fund, especially all value investors saw the low hanging fruits everywhere at that time. What more of a managed fund, a value fund supposedly to be.

Opportunities missed were gone. There are many low hanging fruits around any more. What more the farmer has to go around the whole world to look for some for other people in waiting, but not for you?

Posted by kcchongnz > Nov 27, 2014 12:17 PM | Report Abuse X

This Sunday AGM proposes to renominate an existing director to the board. The question asked is should you or should you not?

Then a shareholder must think, has this director been doing something good for the shareholder? He should be nominated again if he has, that is for sure. But has he?

Let us go back say five years ago when the market was severely beaten down.

1)Did icap take the golden opportunity to invest fully in the market?
Why not?
2)If it was not a good time to invest then, when will be a good time?
3)Had the portfolio of stocks icap changed much at all? Why not?
4)If it hasn't changed, has it been performing well?
5)Has anything, anything at all, done with the intention of shareholder value maximizing? Any evidence at all?
6)If I think a board member has not done his job he is paid for, can I vote for not to re-elect him to the board? Mind you I am not talking about kicking him out half way in his tenure.
7) As a fellow shareholder, can I also suggest other fellow shareholder to think deep about this and act accordingly to his owe interest too? In a selfish way, that will take care of my interest too.
8)Who doesn't think of his own interest when investing in a stock?

Fund manager has the prerogative to invest or not to invest in which stock, for sure. But is there any role for the board of icap? If not what is the function of the board?

I also think the market is no more cheap now and it may be prudent to keep more cash. However, I am sure there are many ways shareholder value still can be enhanced, if we have the right people to take care of our interest. Don't you think so?

But do you think the same people will change and care about your interest?

No, I have nothing against anybody. There is no one to pay me to write about this either. i am voicing my opinion as a shareholder.

I really hope shareholders knows what is their main purpose in investing in a stock, if not for his own benefit.

This Sunday AGM proposes to renominate an existing director to the board. The question asked is should you or should you not?

Then a shareholder must think, has this director been doing something good for the shareholder? He should be nominated again if he has, that is for sure. But has he?

Let us go back say five years ago when the market was severely beaten down.

1)Did icap take the golden opportunity to invest fully in the market?
Why not?
2)If it was not a good time to invest then, when will be a good time?
3)Had the portfolio of stocks icap changed much at all? Why not?
4)If it hasn't changed, has it been performing well?
5)Has anything, anything at all, done with the intention of shareholder value maximizing? Any evidence at all?
6)If I think a board member has not done his job he is paid for, can I vote for not to re-elect him to the board? Mind you I am not talking about kicking him out half way in his tenure.
7) As a fellow shareholder, can I also suggest other fellow shareholder to think deep about this and act accordingly to his owe interest too? In a selfish way, that will take care of my interest too.
8)Who doesn't think of his own interest when investing in a stock?

I also think the market is no more cheap now and it may be prudent to keep more cash. However, I am sure there are many ways shareholder value still can be enhanced, if we have the right people to take care of our interest. Don't you think so?

But do you think the same people will change and care about your interest?

No, I have nothing against anybody. There is no one to pay me to write about this either. i am voicing my opinion as a shareholder.

I really hope shareholders knows what is their main purpose in investing in a stock, if not for his own benefit.

Posted by MG9231 > Nov 25, 2014 06:46 PM | Report Abuse

Tony, precisely how many 5 years do an investor have?
But do you think icap shameless fund manager care?
If icap managed by KC Chong I, as shareholder will be 300 % more wealthy now.
Unfortunely, in contrast a total of 24 millions have to paid to the sleepy yet shameless icap fund manager TTB for nothing.

My friend MG9231, this statement of KC Chong managing icap is unproductive discussion. Let get into the real issue with what is wrong with icap fund.

Actually KLCI's cumulative return since two years ago is about 19% from 30% to 49%. whereas icap's cumulative return is flat.

Hence the under-performance is a staggering number of 19%.

nhy6,

Please refer to the price chart of icap and KLCI in my thread,

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/64846.jsp

Two years ago when we were arguing in i3investor, the cumulative total return of icap was about the same as it is now, ie about 35% since 24/11/2009. Whereas KLCI, with dividends, the total return is 49% now. This means icap underperformed the broad index by 14% since two years ago.

So did you get your "fantastic" return you envisaged? Or was it a total appointment?

What about comparing with the unit trust funds? How about this?

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/45121.jsp

So what happen to your hero?

Posted by chanky50 > Nov 27, 2014 10:05 AM | Report Abuse

"Never compare the performance and the investment strategy between small investor and big fund manager. It is a different ball games."


Of course, I am in total agreement with you. In fact I said it first:

Posted by kcchongnz > Nov 25, 2014 07:00 PM | Report Abuse X

"Managing a fund of a few hundred million is different from managing of my own small amount of fund. No definitely I can't get that kind of return with that kind of money. It is a different ball game.

But my friend in Phillip Capital would have done that with a CAGR of about 22% for 5 years. That would be a total return of 270%. It is still way above 44%."

So what about my last statement above about other fund managers?

Posted by nhy6 > Nov 26, 2014 09:56 PM | Report Abuse

MG9231, can propose kcchongnz as successor to buffet


Thank you thank you so much nhy6. So when can I start work?

We stopped somewhere our debate on icap more than two years ago on the same saga. So what is the return of icap since the last time we debate on the same subject of you were so cosk sure that TTB would provide you with fantastic return then? Or do you want me to give you some figures on return of icap two years ago and with the broad index or some other managed funds? Your choice.

Shall we continue to debate intelligently instead of talking nonsense like you just did?

By the way, both of us are shareholders of icap. What is your opinion on my article below:

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/64846.jsp

Am I talking about the interest of the shareholders, you and me, or am I emphasizing on the interest of agent?

Posted by vinext > Nov 26, 2014 06:37 PM | Report Abuse
KC which of the philip capital fund is the 1 excelling?
btw the 100yr period, buffett said the return is abt 5.x to 9.x since inception of djia
even for a shorter period it is 10-11%, may i know where u get this data of 13%? tq

The article says Philip Capital Master Growth Fund

The article mentioned is Jeremy Siegel's book "Stock For the Long Run" gives the 13% from 1871-2001.

Buffett's cited a shorter period of 100 years according to your question. I am not sure if he talked about the real return, or the nominal return.

Posted by Kian Leong Lim > Nov 26, 2014 03:01 PM | Report Abuse

Investor kcchongnz:
I will show you why you are not the value investor you think you are: I can only give you two examples because I am not paid to do it.

Ok I agree with your disagreement that I am no value investor. Yeah I should pay to learn learn from you. When to start?

This person below doesn't talk sense. Yeah better learn from you.

Posted by NOBY > Nov 26, 2014 03:08 PM | Report Abuse
Kian Leong, do you realize that earnings based valuation is not the only approach to valuation ? Furthermore, an asset based valuation for a close ended fund is appropriate as the assets are highly liquid... I ve never seen someone value a close ended fund based on PE...

But please lah let me call myself to be a value investor can or not? Also cannot?

"Lastly, you copy Warren Buffett investing principles but you don't understand how he implements it. Please do not call yourself a value investor because you are not practicing what you preach yourself. There is another English word called "imposter with a loud speaker". "

"imposter with a loud speaker"? Has this got anything to do with "rudeness"? but have you found any rudeness in my post yet?

I think we all here should respect opposite opinions. We don't want to be in the same situation like what happen in icap general meeting, when shareholders are shouted down when offering different opinions. We should debate it constructively.

Posted by Kian Leong Lim > Nov 26, 2014 01:57 PM | Report Abuse
Investor kcchongnz:
This is getting late for me. But if you really want to know your mistakes there are actually plenty of them　ｉｎｃｌｕｄｉｎｇ　ｙｏｕｒ　ａｒｔｉｃｌｅｓ　ｏｎ　ｖａｌｕｅ　ｉｎｖｅｓｔｉｎｇ. But I　ｎｅｅｄ　ｔｏ　ｅａｔ　ａｌｓｏ，　ｐｌｅａｓｅ　ｌｅｔ　ｍｅ　ｋｎｏｗ　ｈｏｗ　ｍｕｃｈ　ｍｏｎｅｙ　ａｒｅ　ｙｏｕ　ｇｏｉｎｇ　ｔｏ　ｇｉｖｅ　ｍｅ　ｆｏｒ　ｔｅｌｌｉｎｇ　ｙｏｕ　ｙｏｕｒ　ｍｉｓｔａｋｅｓ．

But again you are deviating from the very issue that you have raised, that I was rude etc. This sounds very familiar. When issues were raised in icap general meeting, they were diverted and instead shareholders who asked were abused.

By seriously, when I wrote article in i3investor to share, i love constructive feedback. Point out my mistakes. Sure there will be plenty. You know I am just a small time retail investor and like to share what I think. I am not a fund manager. You know I am still learning. Plenty to learn.

Posted by Kian Leong Lim > Nov 26, 2014 01:57 PM | Report Abuse
Investor kcchongnz:
This is getting late for me. But if you really want to know your mistakes there are actually plenty of them　ｉｎｃｌｕｄｉｎｇ　ｙｏｕｒ　ａｒｔｉｃｌｅｓ　ｏｎ　ｖａｌｕｅ　ｉｎｖｅｓｔｉｎｇ. But I　ｎｅｅｄ　ｔｏ　ｅａｔ　ａｌｓｏ，　ｐｌｅａｓｅ　ｌｅｔ　ｍｅ　ｋｎｏｗ　ｈｏｗ　ｍｕｃｈ　ｍｏｎｅｙ　ａｒｅ　ｙｏｕ　ｇｏｉｎｇ　ｔｏ　ｇｉｖｅ　ｍｅ　ｆｏｒ　ｔｅｌｌｉｎｇ　ｙｏｕ　ｙｏｕｒ　ｍｉｓｔａｋｅｓ．

Kian Leong,

You are welcomed to point out my mistakes. I learn from mistakes. One thing for sure, i wont ask you not to read my article if you find mistakes in my articles. i will thank you instead. But as how much money I am going to give you, this is strange coming out from you. Isn't it. Ok Ok Ok, Tell me how much you are worth in your finance and investment skill.

Kian Leong Lim

You: As to why you are rude. Everyone has his own way of living, conducting himself, and running his business his own way. You are picking on people when you said he underperformed to your standard. Come on, to your standard, haven't you realize that you are you and he is he. And please do not do onto others what you do not want others to do onto you. You are narrowing your life by going against other people's way of life. Does your wife and his wife has the same look?

1. Which part of my article your statements below refers to?
“You are picking on people when you said he underperformed to your standard”
2. So you are saying nobody can use anything to compare the performance of a fund managed by icap? Not the KLCI broad index, not other fund managers? How to measure fund icap’s performance then? No need to measure? Nobody can make a suggestion about any measurement?

So you are saying that “Now listen to me, no question asked, vote for the director I suggest here who has been taking care o your interest, don’t say a word?”

3. “please do not do onto others what you do not want others to do onto you”.
Ok I got you. Nobody can question.

You :Your way of doing things is not effective. Instead of blaming people, post a criticizing comment, don't you have other better alternative that you can do to help yourself? In life, you don't beg for money by criticizing other people failing you and the others, you go do it yourself. Where is your guts? Go do it yourself, help yourself, there are 1000 counters on Bursa Malaysia, if that is not good enough, there is also Singapore stock exchange, and exchanges everywhere in the world.

Me: I read your comments and I had the feeling that you are a matured person. But it beats me that you can’t comprehend my point that anybody can buy any public listed stock in Bursa and I have given you my reasons of doing so. You can’t comprehend the purpose of the post and whose interest I am talking about. You can’t comprehend that what and whose interests is utmost important in finance and investment.

You: One simple thing I must give credit to Mr. Tan Teng Boon. He founded a company, operated it without a loss, and the most important thing he did was to give 100 jobs to his workers and support their families.

Me: Again what is the purpose in investment if not for maximising shareholder value?

You: As you said "I agree your disagreement with me. Shouldn't you be agreeing my disagreement with you." At least you know that there are people that would not agree with you always.

Me: I am happy to see disagreements. You know I am not one when face disagreement and become abusive, abusive to the people whose very hands which feed his mouth.

"If you are such a good investor, why do you have to buy icap shares, like what Super Investor Kcchongnz said: there are 1000 counters on the stock market, why can't you just go and pick you own choice. What is stopping you?"

Thanks for looking me so high up as a "Super Investor". Nobody else calls me that. what an honor!

Sorry to say once a company is public listed, anyone can buy it. i will tell you why i buy it. it is not because I idolize TTB. As a mater of fact, he has nothing I can idolize him for. Seriously.

I buy icap because it is cheap in relation to its NAV. That presents a money making opportunity. Tell me anyone in stock market is mot looking for a money making opportunity? You? What is your purpose investing in the stock market then?

My wish is an activist investor such as Laxey Partner, or City London will come in. Take control of the board and unlock the value of icap for me. I don't care how they do it, as long as I profit from it.

Kian Leong,

Please address my post here:

Posted by kcchongnz > Nov 26, 2014 12:06 PM | Report Abuse X

Kian Leong,

Good points from you. Let me address your comments for discussion purpose.

1)I respect your disagreement with me. but my comments are rude? Please let me know which part is rude to who?

2) I agree your disagreement with me. Shouldn't you be agreeing my disagreement with you, instead of telling me if I don't like TTB, I must sell my shares in icap? Do you at least agree that anyone, yea any Tom Dick and Harry can buy any stocks which is traded in Bursa and hold it? Does the company belong to TTB? Even if it belong to TTB, can't i own it? Why must i sell it off?

Kian Leong,

Good points from you. Let me address your comments for discussion purpose.

1)I respect your disagreement with me. but my comments are rude? Please let me know which part is rude to who?

2) I agree your disagreement with me. Shouldn't you be agreeing my disagreement with you, instead of telling me if I don't like TTB, I must sell my shares in icap? Do you at least agree that anyone, yea any Tom Dick and Harry can buy any stocks which is traded in Bursa and hold it? Does the company belong to TTB? Even if it belong to TTB, can't i own it? Why must i sell it off?

Managing a fund of a few hundred million is different from managing of my own small amount of fund. No definitely I can't get that kind of return with that kind of money. It is a different ball game.

But my friend in Phillip Capital would have done that with a CAGR of about 22% for 5 years. That would be a total return of 270%. It is still way above 44%.

Posted by MG9231 > Nov 25, 2014 04:03 PM | Report Abuse

Icap fund manager, TTB painted as if the world economy is going to collapse since 2011.
Did he forecast it correctly or not after almost 4 years,While i-3 investors respected contributor KC CHONG happens to be a value investor has made at least 50% returns during the period TTB keep shouting bear market is coming. What does this tells us, Kc Chong is working so hard while icap fund manager drawing 7 million fees but is sleeping on his job.
As a icap shareholder, I am interested my investment returns , nothing more.
Obviously, he underperform, chances should be given to those who can make money for me regardless whether he is a Chinese or Englishman.


MG9231, thanks for looking me so up to compare with the Oracle of Bursa. I am no way near his fame. Pai seh pai seh.

But I want to correct one perception of yours. The last 5 years, I think my CAGR is about 25%-30%. That would be more than 300%, not 50% total return as compared to 44% of icap. But mine is a small capital. I use it just to illustrate those aplenty low hanging fruits 5 years ago until even 1 and a half year ago. As you are aware, many people in i3investors here made much more than me.

No, I am not motivated to organize all the transaction notes to show anyone.

Posted by MG9231 > Nov 24, 2014 09:34 PM | Report Abuse
Just a reminder to all attendees , while you speak, if any of TTB supporters yell at you and ask you to leave, we can suggest to them to snap a photo of TTB and worship him at home.

What? The majority of the investors in icap has become a cult or what? Hero worshiping and cult culture is detrimental to your investing outcome.

I kind of believe what Boon3 said below. that is the peril of agency problem when we depend someone and hope that he takes care of our interest.

"I got my big gains.
So I too, will adopt a cash heavy strategy.
If the market moves higher, my gains will gain bigger.
If the market moves south, by being cash heavy, I could pick up more cheap stocks.
Either way I win.
Risk free too.
Why risk my reputation by buying more stocks when I am sitting on a big gain?
I certainly believe that Teng Boo do not want to see another horror story like the 10million PLUS losses in a single stock as suffered previously in Axiata debacle.
And not forgetting, I get to collect my fees!
Yes, I would adopt the same strategy like Teng Boo."

Well the good thing is you are the shareholders of a listed company, you have a voting right.

Posted by bsngpg > Nov 24, 2014 11:01 PM | Report Abuse

"You are one of the very respected and rational blogger/writer thus I am very sure that you allow different opinion, don't you?"

Of course, I like feedback, especially the opposite constructive feedback. and I like to be direct too, and not beating around the bush. Pardon me if i offend you.


The main issue I think is who is the employer and the employed. You shouldn't ridicule the very people with the hands which feed you. Do you shout at your boss, or put up notice and sent letters to all other employees telling about his fault and ask them to reject him, when he asks you why you may have done something not right. Do you tell your boss to get lost from the company if he doesn't like the way you work?

The other issue is fund managers must be candid. If you have made a wrong investing decision, just say so and i think most shareholders will understand. Even Warren Buffett and Charles Munger apologize for making investing mistakes in every general meeting. Instead he gives all kind of excuses market going to collapse lah etc every year. And mind you, he was wrong for years.

1) What is the purpose of a manged fund then if not investing in the stock market? What is value investing, the very principle the fund manager professes? Value investors like Seth Klarmen, Howard Marks etc hold huge amount of cash, but that is during market euphoria. In other times, they are invested, making huge return for shareholders. They don't look at macro and politics too much and don't predict what the market directions are.

Give me a vote here. Does TTB behaving like a market timer or a value investor for the last 5 years?

2) I invest in the market and hope for good return. I have no interest investing directly into a business, such as a palm oil plantation. Investing is a long term endeavor, no doubt about it. But isn't 5 years under-performance is quite a while and suffice an admission of error in judgment, instead of asking the shareholders, his very own boss to get lost if he doesn't like what he is doing each time when he is questioned?

3) Tell me, what is TTB's investing strategy these five years? Has he been making extra-ordinary return for the shareholders the last 5 years? Is 5 years too short. Again this may not be the main issue. the main issue is what you imitate what he says here,

"If cannot agree with him, you are not asked to join."

I have the right to buy or sell any public listed stock. and If I become a shareholder, I pay him, not he pays me.

Do I have to listen to him whom he wants to put in the board of directors to take care of my interest?

I would like to reiterate here, I am investing, not hero worshiping.

Posted by Ivan Lim > Nov 24, 2014 06:17 PM | Report Abuse
hi Mr kcchongz.i appreciate your unselfishness to share your investment theory.
Recently i had confuse..
i know that the net working capital in magic formula that you use is receivable +inventories -payable.however question is
1)if in the properties company ,the development properties in progress is included?or else unbilled sales is included?
2)FOR PAYABLE-do you count it total liabilities or only account payable ?when i study the joel greenbalt book.it said excluded the interest bearing loan,whic mean exclued all the loan that have interest bearing.is it the short term loan and long term loan not included ?
appreciate your kindness reply


Buying great companies cheap. How can this not worked, in long term at least? Good to revive something good, isn't it?

Ivan, finance and investing is art, and I made a lot of personal judgment which are controversial. There is nothing right or wrong.

These are my judgemnt on your questions.

1) yes and yes
2)I follow Joel Greenblatt

Posted by ks55 > Nov 21, 2014 10:30 AM | Report Abuse
I would like to add further
1. Beware of creative accounting. PE can cheat, PL can cheat, BV can cheat, growth rate can also cheat. You know what I mean.
2. Must be comfortable with Director of company you intend to invest. Too many examples happened in Malaysia. Cheat once, he may cheat second, then third time and so on.


True and true. Need I say more? Please read:

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/45373.jsp

But how can you be protected?

"No one protects the retail investor-not corporate officers, not brokers, not analysts, not the media, not even government agencies and elected officials whose job is to do so. An investor must use his own best judgement, all the information available (bearing in mind that publicly available information is never equivalent to insider information), and be very conservative."

So how? Get out completely from the market? But then hear him say:

“How many millionaires do you know who have become wealthy by investing in savings accounts? I rest my case.” - Robert G. Allen

But can you do that if you insist to invest to build long-term wealth? Do most retail investors know how to protect themselves?

The only way I see you can protect yourself is you. Yes, you are the one! But how? Benjamin Franklin will tell you this below.

"Tis goeth down to a fundamental aspect that “An investment in knowledge pays the best interest”"