Posted by JCool > Oct 16, 2013 09:26 AM | Report Abuse
Friends jz told me for a co wit d capital size of pmcorp but only hv a loan of 14mil is not a good sign... It jz means d banks jz refuse to lend to pmcorp.. Simply bcos of its bad records or lousy assets or most probably both....
Well who can blame d banks. ... Jz c how d pmcorp hv to suffer impairment of related cos of 5 mil 6 mil every year... Of cos banks wont loan... Banks r always right


Well I am out of words. I just don't have any patience any more to explain to you. 無中生有

And I dropped my glasses making the following statement and I wish to take it back.

Posted by kcchongnz > Oct 15, 2013 06:03 PM | Report Abuse X
johnchong, my opinion is that Jcool asked some valid questions, though not tactfully done.

More data for your judgement; which is a rotten apple? Which is a fresh apple?

2012 PMCorp AncomLB
Revenue 85611 61610
EPS, sen 1.13 0.13
Price 0.215 0.190
PE 19 146

Posted by Fortunebull > Oct 15, 2013 08:16 PM | Report Abuse
Comparing PMCorp and Ancomlb is like comparing rotten apple with fresh apple! But lets hope for miracle!

Yeah , agree man. But which is a rotten apple and which is a fresh apple. Judge by yourselves from the following table based on their latest balance sheets:

Company PMCorp ALB
Cash and equivalent 93950 5578
Investments 81977 2802
Total assets 328717 96448
Less totalliabilities -15471 -26580
Equity 313246 69868

Number of shares 773356 473290
NAB 0.41 0.12
NTA 0.32 0.12

Price 0.215 0.190
Price/book 0.53 1.59

AIYAH, I THOUGHT YOU ARE TALKING SENSE.

Posted by JCool > Oct 15, 2013 09:10 PM | Report Abuse
HaHaHa... a company tat hv total depleted its share capital of 300 mil n surviving on its share premium (I m not sure how tis premium came abt possibly from issue of shares at inflated prices to d like of clv previously ) is good compared to a fresh co like ANCOMLB???

DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. A COMPANY WITH NTA OF 12 SEN MADE UP OF POOR QUALITY ASSETS SUCH AS PPE BETTER THAN ONE WITH QUALITY ASSETS OF NTA OF 32 SEN MADE UP OF CASH AND QUOTED AND UNQUOTED SECURITIES? THE BETTER QUALITY ASSETS ONE IS TRADING JUST A LITTLE OVER THE OTHER AT 22 SEN COMPARED TO 19 SEN.

AND AN ACE MARKET STOCK IS BETTER THAN A MAIN MARKET STOCK?

Hello r u pkanning for a shut down of pmcorp... why jz compare assets value???

ANCOMLB has many well running subsidiaries....in fact part of d announced capital repayment is from profit from d sale of subsidiary......

WHICH COMPANY IS INTENDING TO SHUT DOWN? THE ONE WHICH SELL A "WELL RUNNING BUSINESS" SUBSIDIARY TO GET THE MONEY FOR CAPITAL REPAYMENT, OR THE ONE WHICH IS GOING TO SPEND 31 M FOR CAPITAL EXPENSES FROM ITS CASH AVAILABLE IN ITS BALANCE SHEET?

over here u r jz going on n on abt d small little chocolate co... ya d future is bright indeed..

WHICH BUSINESS DO YOU THINK HAS BRIGHTER PROSPECT, A FOOD AND CONFECTIONERY OR A MINI LOGISTIC COMPANY IN ACE?

WHICH BUSINESS IS SMALLER AS SHOWN IN THE TABLE BELOW? WHICH ONE'S PROFIT IS SMALLER? BUT WHICH ONE'S PRICE IS MORE EXPENSIVE?

2012 PMCorp AncomLB
Revenue 85611 61610
EPS, sen 1.13 0.13
Price 0.22 0.19
PE 19

YOU CAN'T SEE ANYTHING, CAN YOU?

How is AncomLB compared with PMCorp? Study the table tabulated by me below. It is straight forward.

PMCorp ALB
Cash and equivalent 93950 5578
Investments 81977 2802
Receivables 21475 12553
Inventories 18433 659
PPE 48040 68389
Goodwill 63190 362
Other assets 1652 6105
Total assets 328717 96448
Less totalliabilities -15471 -26580
Equity 313246 69868

Number of shares 773356 473290
NAB 0.405 0.119
NTA 0.323 0.119

Price 0.220 0.190

calvin, why did you ask me to value AncomLB?

Posted by calvintaneng > Oct 13, 2013 06:47 PM | Report Abuse
JCool, thank you. for AncomLb status the best person to value it could be kcchongnz.



calvin, I just went into this AncomLB financial statements. you did an excellent job in valuing AncomLB. You went right to the point with simple illustrations. You are very good at this. 100% agreed.

Just wondering this Jcool seems to be quite ok when he queried in such details on PMCorp, but he couldn't see what you saw.

Actually in my opinion, AncomLB is not only fully valued, it is way overvalued.



Posted by calvintaneng > Oct 13, 2013 07:43 PM | Report Abuse
OK JCool I went into the ANCOMLB A/cs for last few quarters. AncomLb has an NTA of 15 cts. Earnings mediocre. Price of ANCOMLB went up at 13 cts to a high of 20 cts.
I think the price is already factored in by the market. Correct me if I am wrong.
You see if you take out RM800 from a safe and if the total amount in the safe is only RM1,500. There is only RM700 left unless there is further replenishment of cash. There won't be much future payout due to cash being depleted.

PM Corp has an NTA of 44 cts (My valuation is RM1.20) Suppose you take out RM800 from PM Corp there is still RM12,000 - RM800 = RM11,200.

You see the difference. After taking out RM800 ANCOMLB has only RM700 left
While PM Corp still has a CASH HOARD of RM11,200 for further payment in future

Ha, that is a very irresponsible statement from a senior.

johnchong, my opinion is that Jcool asked some valid questions, though not tactfully done.

I don't know about you, I prefer different opinions and opposite views as a check of self over-confidence of our part.

Posted by JCool > Oct 15, 2013 01:55 PM | Report Abuse
Really according to 2012 account d mkt value of pmcorps quoted investment was jz 15mil....
N d other cash is all tied up tat d management didn't even dare to declare dividends as ur hv complained.....
Got free cash?? For both new plant n capital repayment?
Pmcorp capital base is very big.... to b meaningful d capital repayment must b big enough... got tat kind of cash?

Posted by JCool > Oct 15, 2013 02:15 PM | Report Abuse
Anyway say d 31 mil new plant is true.... then wit an extra depreciation charge of abt 6mil annually... do u think NFI can stil make profit wit its small little market share?? which wil b even smaller wit Hershey around


As at 30 June 2013, PMCorp has 94m in cash and cash equivalent, and 82m in investment. That amounts to 45 sen per PMCorp share. It has a total debt of only 5.4m.

Why no cash for the 31m new plant? I don't know if they really go ahead with capital repayment. But why are you so sure that there is no money left for capital repayment.

Yes, as I have said, PMCorp's business in food and confectionery is very small. Asset turnover was only about 0.25. So the best thing to do is to spend on new plant to produce and sell more. Of course they must earn reasonable good return on invested capital from the expansion.

31m in capex and 6m in depreciation? Why must depreciation a manufacturing plant be 5 years? Why not 20 years? Let say we use 15 years, depreciation of this new plant is 2m. That is the normal depreciation rate all this while.

Last year profit before tax is 8.7m. Why cannot make profit? With the new plant, wouldn't NFI able to produce more and sell more?

Ultimately it boils down to if the chocolate produced by NFI is really good and salable. there is no problem with capital for the new plant.

I never like chocolate say 10 years ago. Now I love chocolate. The chocolate I like most is the Whittaker's Almond Gold milk chocolate with 33% cocoa made in NZ. A 250g bar here costs NZD3.30. I haven't acquired the taste of dark chocolate yet. Dark chocolate is healthy but a little bitter. If TANGO, Tudor Gold & Crispy is as good as Whittaker, then I would say it has great future.

The song like this in my time is 我是中國人

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D24pvOitPPM

Posted by CityTrader > Oct 15, 2013 12:35 PM | Report Abuse
When i was in melbourne last year, i was so surprised to note that out of 10ppl, 6 were chinese from china. KC, how is new zealand? Occupied by china chinese oredi?

When you walk along Queens Street in Auckland, same ratio applies as Melbourne. However if you go up to the Sky City Casino nearby in Victoria Street, >90% are Chinese.

Malaysia a multiracial country? You know who are my golf kakis here? German, Scottish, Chinese, Korean, and of course Kiwis, Malaysian and Singaporean.

一样的黄面黑頭Hair

中国人满天下

飞Bon 很有前途

CityTrader,

你好利害

"chi li",

Chi, eat
li, "li liang" strength, power

che li 不討好

忠言逆耳.

"che li pu tou how"

"eat strength won't get good", you know it is a tough job but one won't get any good thing from it.

and "jong yuan nek ee".

good words but it is hurting to the ears.

You know what I mean.

Myself more "pai seh". I read the Water Margin in standard 4, Three Kingdoms in standard 6 and I studied Chinese to form three. Took LCE Chinese. Then self study Chinese to form 5, took MCE. Ha got a credit 4 some more. But now can't even write a simple letter. Some more simple words are forgotten.

Posted by bsngpg > Oct 14, 2013 10:40 PM | Report Abuse

"we should focus more on the messages behind but not the grammer mistake."

First time I see the words of a wise man here.

bsngpg, can you teach me how to write Chinese characters with computer? I was trying to write a couple of phrases such as "che li pu tou how" and "jong yuan nek ee".

And what do you think, should I stop propagating those "messages"? Is there any meaningful purpose doing so?

How do you know I don't have a postgraduate degree in Finance, or a Master in Fiance?

But anyhow, that is just a paper qualification. I can tell you a postgraduate degree in Finance may not be a good investor. I know because I have been through it.

Now lets start our discussion on FA. Lets start with this one as this is easier because I have written a long post on this telling why I have included this into my portfolio. Check it out here.

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/stock_pick_challenge_2013_2h/34374.jsp

You can't say I "Put some simply table of figures from unknown sources perhaps pre prepared by others and spin like no tomorrow!".

Why I say so? I guarantee that you can't find anything similar to what I write in anywhere.

OK lets get over this. Over to you now. I love to hear your criticisms on what I have written.

Posted by HJey > Oct 14, 2013 06:26 PM | Report Abuse
very interesting....fine, i will do it.i will email her and take snapshot of her reply (if she replied). and, last i will put it in market blog for everyone to see.
i am bad christian, what else can u expect. here i come, world chocolate champion.....so many big talk n boasting from calvintaneng... hahaha

HJey, please do and let us know the outcome. But why are you so cynical about calvin? Yeah lah he exaggerates lah regarding NFI chocolate, but no harm done what. Just gung-ho.

Anyway, awaiting for your outcome.

Yeah Jaack1, saw that. Thanks.

Aiyah, told you so many times, university lecturer don't teach like that one, what pullfront pullback 35 sen.

They teach by estimating future cash flows discounted to present value. What is the appropriate discount rate. How to estimate future cash flows etc.

How are you going to be a lecturer?

Posted by Fortunebull > Oct 11, 2013 04:57 PM | Report Abuse
I got tons of certificated in TA! Attended so many courses! Enough to wipe butt for lifetime! Also can lecture FA in universities!

Which do you believe, facts or fictions? Guilty as charged unless proven innocence?

CityTrader, I think I know you have asked me a number of questions on FA under another name. Well you have made your choice. It is your preferred choice of trying to make money from the market. Good luck.

Nevertheless, I also would like to make this suggestion to you. You don't have to follow.

Have a spreadsheet for all your tradings. Itemize the different transaction cost. Look at your profit and loss everyday. I think this is very important to you, not for me.

house, thanks for that confirmation. I guess few people differentiate what is a group consolidated account which shareholders should be concern of, rather than the company account.

Posted by MrTigerShark > Oct 14, 2013 05:26 PM | Report Abuse

kcchong, you will be surprised. You won't believe anything from JCool & MrTigerShark.

To make you believe, it's your side who can do it.

Think about it...

Tiger, if you have checked with siapa ini Lai Fah and confirmed that calvin is a conman, just confirm it here. It is a good thing to do for everybody's sake. But not wild allegation.

If you haven't, you have the obligations to say it here if you are a gentleman.

Posted by zamsaham > Oct 14, 2013 01:42 PM | Report Abuse
Asal untung who give fcuk TA, FA. Funny seeing 2 kids fighting..

You used a lot of F words around I notice. That is not the good oriental culture.

I see your favorite stocks: Hibiscus, THHV, TMS, Green Packet, Cliq, Selsol, Destini, Sona, Sumatec, etc. Wow what a good portfolio of stocks you have.

Yeah, what the f, as long as make money, what the f.

Just a proposition here, of course you don't have to follow.

Keep a good record of your buy sell everyday. I am sure is a long list of them. Use a spreadsheet and keep track of your transactions, and all costs which include brokerage, stamp duty etc, and get your PnL. Look at it everyday and see what you see.

It is for you, not for me. Good luck.

OH, I see, you must have talked to the management or kkp.

How come you are so sure that there are loss making subsidiaries but you can't even see in the audited accounts? Like that also can one ah?

How come you are so sure that "LATER THEY WILL POP UP AS IMPAIRMENT LOSS ON LOANS"?

Wah you have six sense ah?

My friend anbz, good idea to try to get a job in Kfima because company is making money and earns a lot of cash every year. No worry of good salary, and if salary not high, also got chance to get esos.

In contrast with NovaMsc, I believe even staff salary also very tough to get every month because losing money and no cash earned for so many years. May be one of this day, staff has to foot out money to sustain the company operations.

Posted by MrTigerShark > Oct 14, 2013 01:41 PM | Report Abuse
MrTigerShark has doubt on this calvin guy. Afterall, his investment is trapped here for 6 years.

Regarding the story, you can verify with
Ng Lai Fah - Assistant GM
nglfah@networkfoodsind.com.my

So have you spoken to Lai Fah and verify calvin is a conman? Or are you practicing "guilty unless proven innocence"?

Posted by JCool > Oct 14, 2013 12:54 PM | Report Abuse
Kcchongnz.. while u r looking at d few valid points by me.. may b u also c if NFI is making a small profit bcos its very very very old plant n machinery r fully depreciated... tat is no more depreciation charge... if buy new ones there is depreciation... n u can also kiss d small profit good bye...

aiyah, in all business there is depreciation of PPE, and capital expenses every year. PMCorp is no exception. It is all shown in its cash flow statement. What is the issue?

Posted by MrTigerShark > Oct 13, 2013 09:47 PM | Report Abuse

MrTigerShark's view,

BUY 0.13 - 0.15
HOLD 0.16 - 0.18
SELL 0.19 above

*For BuyHold Type
*For day trader, it's irrelevant

I thought calvin is asking you guys to invest in PMCorp?

Why talk about punting?


“What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing."

― Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan

Isn't this wild statement? What is your basis of saying this?

Posted by JCool > Oct 13, 2013 09:29 PM | Report Abuse
Tigershark u r right.... stuck for at least 6 years as he had indicated.... despair.. fed up.. desperate.. hv to come out of retirement n hv nothing to lose...

So can you show me which part of the income statement, or which part of the Notes shows there is this "losses of other loss making subsidiaries"? Which company owes PMcorp this "cross loans"? Which part of PMCorp's financial statement shows there will be further "impairment loss"?

Are you looking at the right financial statement? Are you looking at the group consolidated statement which you should be concerned of as the stock holder, or are you looking at the "company financial statement"?

Posted by JCool > Oct 13, 2013 08:57 PM | Report Abuse
N d audited account also showed tat year in year out there were inventories been written off.... wassup? stall turdo chocolate which can't even be sold in factory sales?

Inventories write-down of 1.5m, of a turnover of 85.6m, down from the previous year of 2.1m. Is that very significant increase? Isn't inventories write-down a common cost in business, like in food and confectionery business?

I am not sure, but are you sure it is a serious thing here?

Actually the best person to deal with the questionnaires about PMCorp is calvin. He seems to know a lot about the company. Nevertheless, let me as an armchair investor and a non-professional gives some comments here. Damn it, I just like to talk. Is there any restriction in i3 where a non-professional cannot give his opinion?

Posted by JCool > Oct 13, 2013 08:47 PM | Report Abuse
Pmcorp fund is all tied up in cross loans to its related companies.... n pmcorp 2011 2012 audited accounts hv shown tat it has been having impairment losses on these loans... tat mean these subsidiaries cannot pay back their loans to pmcorp....

SUBSIDIARY COMPANIES OR PARENT COMPANIES MAY HAVE BORROWED MONEY FROM PM CORP AND WERE UNABLE TO PAY. BUT ALL THESE HAD BEEN "IMPAIRED". LOSSES HAVE BEEN TAKEN AND NO MORE APPEARING IN PMCORP'S BALANCE SHEET.

N these subsidiaries cannot pay must b bcos they have been making losses.... u cant see these losses in d group account bcos they hv been masked by d small NFI profit....

CAN YOU ELABORATE HOW ARE IMPAIRMENT LOSSES BEING MASKED" BY NFI PROFIT? I CAN'T SEE ANYTHING FROM ITS INCOME STATEMENT.

So when more subsidiaries cannot pay back pmcorp bcos of losses.. u wld b staring at a pn17 pmcorp... bcos it is jz so near to being one now

AS I HAVE SAID, ALL THOSE LOSSES HAVE BEEN IMPAIRED AND TAKEN. ITS BALANCE SHEET IS SQUEAKY CLEAN NOW AS I SEE IT, WITH 190M IN CASH AND CASH EQUIVALENT AND INVESTMENT IN MOSTLY QUOTED SHARES WHICH HAVE MARKET VALUE. TOTAL DEBTS IS MERE 14M. THESE QUALITY ASSETS ALONE IS MORE THAN ITS EQUITY VALUE. HOW COULD YOU SAY YOU ARE STARING AT A PN17 PMCORP? UNLESS OF COURSE IF THE MANAGEMENT SQUANDERS OFF THE MONEY.

house, I when I worked as a civil engineer involved in the dam constructions from feasibility studies until the completion of a dam and the first filling of water many years ago. There are definitely many issues in dam construction. What you have mentioned are the small ones.

Any development work will come with many social and environment issues. They are more profound in the developed world, but not so much in the developing world where many people are living from hand to mouth. Hence development is more important than those environmental problems.

So is the following claim true or not? Or is it just "buat malu" as you just said?

Posted by Fortunebull > Oct 11, 2013 04:57 PM | Report Abuse
I got tons of certificated in TA! Attended so many courses! Enough to wipe butt for lifetime! Also can lecture FA in universities!

Me full of anger? You must be kidding. I am very anxious to discuss with you, a qualified lecturer in investment in university, on fundamentals of finance and investing.

Mumble mumble mumble again. Come on get into the real stuff. Show that you are a qualified university lecturer as you claimed to be.

Hey fortune teller, you every time mumble mumble mumble. Come on show us your stuff. Lets get into real discussions.

Frankly I haven't read a single post of you showing that you know anything about FA, despite your following claim.

Posted by Fortunebull > Oct 11, 2013 04:57 PM | Report Abuse
I got tons of certificated in TA! Attended so many courses! Enough to wipe butt for lifetime! Also can lecture FA in universities!

Hey fortune teller, you are right. I am not a CFA, not ACCA. You are wrong, I never show off anything. I only provide my opinion when asked.

But I am ready to discuss with you , a lecturer-not-to-be any time. I am waiting for you in the Amedia thread now.

Btw, you still haven't provide your explanation what was wrong with my Mahsing, Brahim, Cuspaci and other posts despite you re-posted them.

Hey "university-lecturer-but-ended-up-not-to-be", Eric is still waiting for your advice.

Hey fortune teller, good to see you re-posting my post.

My post misled you? Can you tell me which part of my post misled you? The part where it is making losses eery year, or which one?

By the way, has Hibiscus been making profit? which year it makes profit? Has it strike oil? How much the oil strike?

Posted by JCool > Oct 13, 2013 07:10 PM | Report Abuse
HaHa i hv pointed out kcchongz's shortcomings b4... think we can give it a pass..

Why did somebody flagged our friend's comments above? The statement is a fact, and nothing is worth to flag that comment, is there? Come on, we are not a cult here. We don't want everybody agrees to each other. It is no good for our investment experience.

I definitely have many shortcomings when talking about investment. Hack, I am just a small time retail investor.

First of all I can't go around to visit sites, companies, talk to their managers, demand for their books to see their day-to-day account, their bank statements, make projections and forecasts 5-10 years down the road for them. Their managers won't sit down with me to talk about their future plans, acquisition etc and then I got to gather all industrial information to check if their plan and forecasts are workable etc etc etc etc.

But not putting a disclaimer when giving my comments, often when asked is it a shortcoming? I am not sure. I don't remember I have ever give people so called advice whether to buy or sell a stock. Hack what for? I don't get commission from that. And I don't think i3 here has the clout to push up the price by telling a certain company is good and its price is reasonable or cheap. May be I don't know but that is never my intention, because I am not a fortune teller (how many times I have reiterated this?), I simply won't know the price of a stock would go up or down in the future.

So please don't simply flag others comments. There are a few comments by Jcool which are valid. I will look into them soon.

Wonderful!

http://klse.i3investor.com/servlets/forum/900214344.jsp

Go read my explanation of cash flow and free cash flow from the above thread.

Lets start with Cresbld. Even if you asked me a year ago, I would still say it is not my cup of tea. Now it has risen by 100% as mentioned by you. Wouldn't you accuse me of misleading you?

You see a value fundamental investor like me is not a fortune teller. He can't tell you the future price of a stock. He can only based on its business, its prospect, its past performance and form a judgement, a judgement of whether it is a good company, and then loo at its price if it is worthwhile investing, even if it is a good company.

Assets and earnings of a company is just accounting number. One has to look deeper into what these stuffs are. Debt is alright if the company has adequate cash flow to cover interest. FCF is not "CASH AND CASH EQUIVALENTS". etc.

Below please read the comments which appears in this thread.

Posted by houseofordos > Apr 8, 2013 01:07 PM | Report Abuse
KC, what do you think about CRESBLD ? This stock looks undervalued to me.. KENANGA has a TP of RM1.35 for this stock. Havent done a detailed study, but a quick check on latest results :-
ROE 12.7077
P/E 3.25
EPS 29.2277
DPS 4.97
DY 5.23%
PTBV 0.4130
Market Cap 130M

Posted by kcchongnz > Apr 8, 2013 01:47 PM | Report Abuse X
house Cresbld looks attractive from your statistics. My intention of this thread is about a growth stock trading at a reasonable price. Criteria are:
1) Profit growth >15%
2) Revenue growth >10%
But at reasonable price
1) PE<15
2) PEG<1
And good quality of growth
1) ROC > WACC
2) ROE> 12%
Or a value stock
1) PE< 10
2) P/B <1
3) DY > 3%
But not a dead wood
1) revenue and profit growth >5%
And not going to bankrupt
1) D/C <60%
Not cheating on earnings,
1) good quality earnings in terms of good cash flow
Can share with us how Crebld fits into one of these two?

Posted by tptan45 > Apr 8, 2013 11:26 PM | Report Abuse
Key Results Highlights QoQ, 4Q12 pretax profit grew tremendously by >100% to RM28.7m, largely due to the fair value gains of RM20.0m arising from revaluation of its investment properties i.e. The Crest office tower, car park lots and two other shop units located in Taman Megah and Sentul.
The above from kenanga regarding crest builder.
Does it mean that without the revaluation its profit was only 8.7 m for that q?
Was that revaluation a one time thing?
If it was, then we should take it out and focus on profits from operations.
Then its fy 12 profit would be down to 27 m, as compared to 37 m for fy 11.

Posted by kcchongnz > Apr 9, 2013 05:51 AM | Report Abuse X
tptan45, you are absolutely right on all your comments above. I could see this things from their cash flow statement.
Just a glance at its financial statement ended 31/12/2012, I feel uncomfortable about investing in this company. The income statement lumps everything into revenue and profit, which includes that revaluation of its investment properties. This is inappropriate in my opinion. This stuff has to be specially separated as revaluation gain, or extra-ordinary gain or whatever, after the "profit from operations", and should not be classified as "other operating gain". How can a revaluation of assets be classified as "operating gain"? How can this gain be lumped together in earnings per share? Hiding the fact in the explanatory notes is irresponsible.
Financial Auditors: GEP Associates (2011). Who the hell is this?
I view it as a financial shenanigan. I may not be qualified to say so as I am no accountant. But I will definitely avoid this stock. There are so many to choose from Bursa.