bsngpg, regarding your post above. Here are my views:

1) I haven't read about this book. I have read the following American books and would like to recommend to you.
(a) Common stocks and uncommon profit by Philip fisher
(b) One Up Wall Street by Peter Lynch
(c) Value Investing by James Montier
(d) The 5 Rules by Pat Dorsey
(e) ValueGrowth by Glen Arnold
(f) A investment book by Vitality Katsenelson
(g) A behavioral finance book Outsmarting smart money by Lawrence A. Cunningham
(h) Jeremy Siegel: Stocks for the Long Run

Regarding my thought about value and growth investing, may be you should refer to this thread.

http://klse.i3investor.com/servlets/forum/900225467.jsp?ftp=1

2) The most important qualitative factor Buffet emphasizes is staying within one’s own circle of competence.

3) Sometimes people think learning new things is too tough and just refuse to learn. However in investing, it is not really that hard if you want to take the trouble. You just need some high school maths and most of all common sense.

However, I am of the opinion that you are already well equipped in investing knowledge and temperament.

Fortunebull, I don't know much about technical analysis, and I don't follow TA if you have read my posts. So no point arguing with me about it. I respect your opinion and your RM1 margin strategy. And you should also know not everybody admires charts.

You can criticize on my fundamental analysis. I welcome all constructive criticisms. Yes, no personal attack. For example if you get into personal on me like your comments below, please justify. Justify why you think I pretend to be smart. Justify why my valuation fails. I am happy to listen (read).

Do you have any hidden gem for 2013?
Oct 4, 2013 12:38 PM | Report Abuse
Ha! KCChongnz don't know anything! Pretending to be smart! Look at his Mahhsing valuation! Fail!

Are you bullish on L&G? Why not take a look at its loan stock?

L&G and its loan stock is traded at 37.0 sen and 22.0 sen respectively. Here is an arbitrage opportunity:

Sell 100000 shares of L&G at 37.0 sen, receive RM37000
Buy 100000 shares of L&G-LA simultaneously at 22.0 sen and pay RM22000
Pay 100000*0.13 or RM13000 to convert to 100000 shares of L&G, and return the shares to lender.
Total cost = 22000+13000= RM35000
Profit = 37000-35000 or RM2000

However, short sell is not allowed in Bursa. You have to buy the 1000000 shares of L&G-LA with your own money, and then send for conversion with RM13,000. Hopefully by the time you get back the converted shares, L&G is traded the same at 37.0 sen a piece or higher. Hence this is not a risk-free arbitrage opportunity, but good punt nevertheless.

But who would want to convert if there is still 5 more years to expiry? Moreover there is a 1% interest payment for the LA.

Yes! Look for demand for a share of the company's great business, demand because of its business profitability and growth; not the liquidity or non-liquidity of its stock. The price of the underlying and hence the warrant, will follow.

Hard to find similar wavelength like that of sesisir pisang.

This company is definitely highly undervalued, low risk and high potential return stock, provided the management changes their kedekut behaviour.

This is a classic Graham net-net investment.

Good to be a long term investment and negligible chance of going wrong. But definitely will not be a multi-baggers, and not for judi.

I was wrong on Freight Wa when I used Black-Scholes Option Pricing to value it.

Posted by kcchongnz > Mar 12, 2013 04:14 AM | Report Abuse X
Oh, passerby, I was talking about the underlying share, not the warrants.
For the warrant, at 21 sen, it is trading at a premium of 36% and an implied volatility of 25%. I have taken into consideration of its dividend yield of 4.8%. My opinion is the warrant is fully valued. A good punt if you are bullish about Freight as the gearing is 5.3 times.
May be I should buy the warrant instead.


Warrant price depend very much on the underlying company's future prospect, not merely its share price according to the BS OPM, nor the liquidity or non-liquidity of its underlying shares. As the company business gets better, its share price increases in tandem, and the warrant price increases by a much higher rate in accordance to its gearing.

Freight warrant is trading at a 7.4% discount now at 54 sen when the underlying share price is 1.63, with a gearing of 3 times. This appears to me to be a very low risk investment, with good potential of upside.

This is because Freight has been doing well in very steady manner year-on-year in term of growth in revenue and profit. I first got to know about this company through a forumer here named luzeeker. He has written some very good articles about Freight in his blog. Hope he can update us his view on Freight.

Buying a company warrant at discount is a losing game? No demand hence price won't move up? Better buy at premium price?

I bought a no-demand company warrant of a non-demand stock Freight at 28 sen less than 5 months ago. There are people queuing up to buy at 54 sen, 53 sen 52 sen etc now.

What happen at this price? Freight Wa even with buyer at 54 sen is still trading at a big discount of 7.4% when the underlying share is at 1.63 now. Some more it comes with a good gearing of 3 times.


Posted by kcchongnz > May 15, 2013 04:37 AM | Report Abuse X

Yeah lah 1.09 boh liao, gone with the wind.

After somebody "um, um, um", I went in again three weeks again, but not in the mother share, but the warrant, Wa, at 28 sen just to shut his big mouth. Now let me evaluate my gain or loss.

I sold 20,000 shares at 1.09 on 8 March 2013 at 1.09, proceeds was RM21700. I bought 77800 shares of Wa at 28 sen with all the proceeds for sale of the mother shares. Now the mother share is 1.34 and Wa at 37 sen. My gain in Wa is RM7000 now, or 32%. My "loss" for not holding the mother share till now is RM5000, or 23%.

So which is a better position, hold mother share or Wa? Shit, should have straightaway bought Wa the day I sold the mother share when Wa was about 20 sen!

At today's prices, Wa is trading at no premium at all despite that it has more than 3 and a half years more to go before it expires. It has a nice gearing of 3.6 times some more. This is what we call "having the cake and eat it".

Posted by kakijudi > Oct 7, 2013 06:50 PM | Report Abuse
So what? I bought at 0.41? As long as I make money I'm happy.

It is not "so what"? Making more than 50% for Pelikan from 41 sen to 65 sen in a short time definitely is a great feat, an investment strategy which investors should follow. Especially you can make that kind of return with a company having heavy losses and owes banks hundreds of millions of debt. See, you have so many people idolizing you already. Please keep on sharing.

Yeah same thing will happen to MEGB. Last year 28m losses. Last two quarters already 30m, wow! Also “great” borrowings of 60m. Exactly the same story. 50% upside will bring its price to 65 sen. This is exactly the same movement of Pelikan. Buy, buy, buy!

Why the hell I am investing in my Dutch lady and BAT and have to wait for 26 years to get my 700% return? It is a wrong investment strategy man.


Posted by kakijudi > Sep 24, 2013 07:19 PM | Report Abuse
Of course you can. If you compound your current gains of 8% per annum, in another 26 years you can achieve it. Lol

I can guarantee you that all this is not luck. I just do my homework. Ok now get back to investing in your Dutch lady and BAT

Yeah definitely another Pelikan; from a high of 4.50 dropped to 35 sen, or a destroy of value by >90%!

Good for Judi for those gamblers, no doubt.

Oh I see. You are betting on this apa ini Dr Kenneth going to buy a stake of an ailing O&G company somewhere for Hibiscus and turns in into an AirAsia equivalent and then benefits all Hibiscus shareholders.

Great investment strategy! Buy, buy , buy! No wonder you are going to make tons of money from Hibiscus. Well done!

Yeah lah, I am so sour about you making money in Hibiscus and I am not. So now you know why I said you know nothing about Buffet. You really know nothing about Buffet.

Dr Kenneth apa ini? 30 years experience in O&G and sure make money for you? What makes you think he can find one good O&G acquisition. Why would other sell a good company to him at good price? Why not sell to a highest bidder, or just go public himself?

Of course Dr Kenneth is not stupid. He is making and going to make a lot of money from Hibiscus, whether he makes money for Hibiscus or not.

Sorry, can't resist not to say anything since you asked.

Posted by Fortunebull > Oct 6, 2013 04:14 PM | Report Abuse
Fortunebull buy prolexus, favco, alam, brahims, mahsing, hibiscus! Tell me KCChongnz, all my shares lousy!

Yeah prolexus, favco, alam, mahsing (not in term of cash flow) good companies. I have all commented before in i3.

Brahim? so so lah at this price of 1.40. Expected ROE and ROIC at 9% and 7% respectively. Not really great. Assets are mainly made up in Goodwill, some kind of overpayment of certain acquisition? Yeah I forgot, good catering prospect because of Ahmad Badawi factor? Or hope so? But at 1.40, PE not cheap. Enterprise about 10 times ebit, not cheap at all.

Hibiscus? Why are you so bullish about it? Rumours of striking oil? Insiders goreng for your benefit? I see it as a murder hole. Every year burning cash, losses and losses.

Okokok, sorry to make you angry. It was not my intention. My intention as explained is very clear.

I won't say anything any more.

Graham number

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kianweiaritcles/24125.jsp

Fortune, that is why I said you haven't learned anything from Buffet yet despite you talking about Buffet. Absolutely nothing.

Seriously, go learn something bout Buffet. First start with his "Letters to shareholders" of Berkshire Hathaway.

Believe in my good intention.

Posted by pradeep > Oct 3, 2013 09:48 AM | Report Abuse
KCCHONGNZ I see that you are very learned and others then KFIMA can you share your knowledge other stocks that we investors can invest. I really appreciate the advice you are giving us.

pradeep, I think you have posted a number of times addressed to me but i didn't reply you. So sorry. So I think I should at least give a response to you.

I am very poor in predicting where the share price of any stock will go. So I never venture into that "specialized" field. But I do have strong opinions regarding investing in the stock market, or rather the companies listed in Bursa. Instead of telling you which stocks to invest, i rather tell you my opinion what kind of stocks to invest, and how much you should pay for those stocks. Giving you a fishing rod is better than giving you 10 fish.

Contrary to many people think, investing is a very straightforward easy-to-do thing. Invest in good companies whose business would likely to last for many years to come. Good businesses have high margins in relation to their peers; high operating efficiencies in term of ROE, but I like the metric of ROIC better. And last but not least good cash flows.

A great company may not be a great investment if you pay high. Hence compare a stock price with its value, and have a margin of safety investing in them. Think of price-to-book, PE ratio etc. But I prefer the metric of enterprise value/Ebit. It is just that simple.

If you are interesting how to go about it, I invite you to go to a link in i3 below:

http://klse.i3investor.com/servlets/forum/900255072.jsp?ftp=1

Fortunebull, if ever you want to thank, thank yourself for learning from one of the greatest investors of all time, Warren Buffet.

But, but, seriously, I doubt you have learned anything from Warren Buffet yet. Be serious, take the trouble to learn from him. Believe me for once, it will be good for you in your investing experience.

I angry with myself? Why?

I was just trying to be helpful to entice you to learn everything about Warren Buffet if you want to dabble in the stock market. Shouldn't you be thankful to me?

umh, 2 years ago I bought Kfima at the price of RM1.48. How come people bought at 1.94 ah?

Aiseh, couldn't get the RM1 margin also.

Better buy Hibiscus lah. Rumours about striking black gold soon. RM5.00 also cheap man!

Do you really know anything about Warren Buffet, anything at all? Like what are his tenets in investing? How does he invest? His philosophies in investing? what does he look for when deciding whether to invest in a company or not? Does he pay any attention to murder holes like those SPACs etc?

Hey Avocado,
don't go away from my thread. I enjoy your comments. Your kind of good comments are really hard to come by. I also like you to share with me your thoughts on investment. Like I have said, I can't do much alone.

Avocado,
You are wrong again about me. I got most of the stocks from people in i3. Think of it, how much me as a single person can search and do in the sea? Some of the people here like you also are value investors. So often they mentioned those stocks in the forums, some asked me in the forum, and some asked me through e-mail. I try to look at the financial statements and see if there is any opportunity to invest in some good companies.

That is all I can do. I can't tell if the stock price can go up and down.

Avocado, when you talk about those three companies. Yes, yes, yes, they are all typical Graham net nets. Their assets are mostly high quality assets.

My minimum values given to them are 6.45, 5.60 and 2.66 for Sg Bagan, Kluang and Kuchai respectively. This compare to the market price of 3.34, 3.39 and 1.32 respectively, there is huge margin of safety. Below is my comments. You have judge yourself whether to invest or not.

[I agree with you that out of the three companies, Sg Bagan is the best bet. My rationale is more of its special dividend yield of 10% now which it continues to give in the future, it would be great. However, will it, or is it just one off event just before the expiry of of tax imputation of dividends?

This group of people are well known for their stinginess in rewarding the minority shareholders. yes, they hoard cash all this while. Unlikely unless their next generation, hopefully are more generous takes over.

The other way is a hostile takeover. But that is highly unlikely as these companies cross-holding each other. nobody can touch them.

So you have to evaluate yourself. Net net? Absolutely. Will you earn extra-ordinary return? I don't know. But one thing I am sure is it is quite safe to keep this shares as most of the assets is in cash or cash equivalent.

And which figure below "wrong" and 'fail"?

Posted by kcchongnz > Sep 29, 2013 08:28 AM | Report Abuse X

Posted by bsngpg > Sep 28, 2013 08:24 PM | Report Abuse

To all: pls do not get confused by our discussion. All in all, Mahsing is still a great company in most of the aspects, just imperfect with negative cash flow. I believe there are many companies with negative cash flow in Bursa which can last long and grow successfully. Pls do your own assessment; negative cash flow is not a forbidden factor in biz world but definitely need extra attention.

Most of the members do not understand and always complained about the dull price performance of Mahsing, maybe the negative cash flow is the reason behind.

Good luck.


bsngpg, I agree with you the above. I also agree with your point that all interest payments were made except that in the income statement, they did not show the interest cost for development projects, but capitalized them, which i think is ok.

So my only concern is its fast growth and hence bad cash flow. But again fast growth may be good for many growth investors and good cash flow may eventually come.

Did I say the share price of Mahsing will plunge? And which figure below wrong and "fail"?

Posted by kcchongnz > Sep 28, 2013 01:27 PM | Report Abuse X

Posted by bsngpg > Sep 28, 2013 12:05 PM | Report Abuse

Hi KC Chong : My current biggest holding is Mahsing. I have strong faith in it and am very conformable with its current trend and biz, not perplexed as in GTronic and Zhulian. Anyway as I have the largest $ in it, if you would mind, I would like to see your valuation on Mahsing. Pls post it under the thread of Mahsing if you wound mind.

Look at the growth in revenue and net income of Mahsing from the table below:

Year 2012 2011 2010 2009 2008 2007 2006 2005 CAGR
Revenue,000 1775260 1570696 1110108 701562 651639 573365 495625 473491 24%
EBIT,000 307728 231501 176393 146398 138598 122994 97544 73354 21%
Net Income,000 230617 168556 118071 94282 93168 81126 65370 48346 23%

Mahsing is a very aggressive property development company. It has one of the most amazing growth story in Bursa. Revenue and net income has been growing at a compound annual growth rate of 24% and 23% respectively. Last year, its revenue is 1.8b and net income 232m. Few companies has shown such a high and consistent growth for such a long time over an economic cycle.

Its operating efficiencies are also not bad and improving throughout the years. Last year ROE and ROIC was 18.5% and 14.5% respectively, more than the costs of capital by quite a good margin.

Price wise, at a PE of 8.0 and enterprise value of 7 times ebit, it is inexpensive too. But why is it that its share price, now at RM2.20, doesn’t grow at the fast pace as its revenue and earnings?

The management of Mahsing has very high ambition, wanting to have a 3b revenue company in a short time to come. Generally most people view this as positive but not me. I have involved in construction before and know that big (in revenue) is not necessary good. Big in net income and cash flow is good for me. The more projects you have, the more headache you have. In order to grow very big, Mahsing keeps on borrow more money, its borrowing also reaching billion ringgit club soon, issue more shares and warrants. Interest payment were not made but rolled over each year and hence made the net income appears to be good (I guess only by looking at its financial statements). It uses the money to keep on buying land for development. What happen?

The Achilles’ heel of Mahsing is its cash flows. Imagine half the time the cash flow from operations (before capex) is negative because of increasing development cost and growth in receivables. So I don’t have to even talk about free cash flow which I value the most in making my investments decision.

I feel this kind of operation, seeking growth without caring about cash flow a very dangerous management decision. Imagine when we hit a serious recession. Think about another financial crisis. I like to look down rather than look up, caring more on not losing than winning big. I personally will not invest such a company because I always believe what Warren Buffet’s rules:

Rule no. 1: Never lose money
Rule no. 2: Always remember rule no. 1.

Of course this is just my personal opinion. I am often wrong in my opinion.

Posted by Fortunebull > Oct 4, 2013 12:46 PM | Report Abuse
Read KCChongnz on Mahsing! He got his figures wrong! I follow his recommendations! Many stocks he put down has shot up!

You stupid fool. Why did you follow me and lost the opportunity to make killings in those stocks?

by the way, what "figures wrong" ah?

Posted by Fortunebull > Oct 4, 2013 12:38 PM | Report Abuse
Ha! KCChongnz don't know anything! Pretending to be smart! Look at his Mahhsing valuation! Fail!

This is interesting. Tell me what is considered as "fail"? What valuation you are talking about? What part of the "valuation" "fail"?

Please take note that I am not a fortune teller like you who knows about future share price.

Did I miss Hibiscus? How could I when I don't give a damn to this Selling Promises And Craziness (SPAC)?

Posted by Fortunebull > Oct 3, 2013 08:45 PM | Report Abuse
KCChongnz! You miss hibiscus as hiddengem!

Let us see how the fortune teller classified as GEM.

Since listing Hibiscus has been making losses. No revenue, still looking for qualified assets acquisition. While looking for QA, spent million for investment bankers, millions for administrative expenses, millions for financing costs, millions in "other expenses" etc. How not to make losses?

As at June 2013, accumulated losses is 20m! A gem? OMG!

Actually this is expected. SPACs are murder holes.

Think about it!
1) Would a promising company need to do deal or merge with SPAC, or rather it just go public through a IPO on its own merits?
2) SPAC no doubt has some seemingly successful business people behind them. Are you sure they too will succeed in this new ventures? Or they were successful because of luck or through other people? I tend to believe more of the later.
3)Those early birds whose cost is so much lower will unload in droves once listed, leaving those poor retail investors holding the hot potato.
4) Investment bankers will be laughing to the banks with your money. They pay themselves multiple times:
a) When they take it public
b) Consultant to the SPAC on retainer as a potential acquisition is sought.
c)When an acquisition is found
d) The one year process when SPAC is seeking shareholders and regulator approvals.

Fees, fees, fees, an ATM machine for the investment bankers. Guess whose money in the ATM machine?

What is the stories behind Hibiscus? I don't even want to hear.

What's up for AsiaBio, Jimmy?

Posted by Jimmy Young > Oct 3, 2013 08:20 PM | Report Abuse
Dear KCChongNZ,
http://klse.i3investor.com/servlets/stk/0150.jsp (ASIA BIOENERGY TECH BHD) - not predicting future etc, historically is there somewhere some intrinsic value which could translate to future values etc? Appreciate your kind views/thoughts
Thanks

Are you old enough to know about the dotcom bubble in 2000? AsiaBio fits in perfectly as one of those companies; technology company which has no revenue and year in year out burning cash.

Hey Jimmy, it is very interesting. Go Google and read extensively about the dotcom bubbles. This is the first lesson before investing in a jungle out there.

Avocado, if you read Graham's net-net, you would know that it is best for assets which are more tangible, for example cash, quoted investments, inventories, receivables etc which can fetch a price in the market not too far from your estimate. Cash and quoted stocks have market values equal to their book value. Land for property development and properties not revalued can be conservatively assumed to be at it book value, take a cut on the inventories and receivables, etc. So if the share price is below this discounted assets value, it is thought to be safe to invest in the company.

For plantation company, the major value is in the agriculture land which is very subjective in valuation. Many based on the other agriculture land just transacted, say so much per hectare etc. But is it so sure that you can sell at that price? Are you in the business of selling land? Are the land actually equal, won't there be some land more fertile,productive and more suitable for say palm oil plantation than others? etc etc.

That is why I personally don't go and chase those stocks people say the land itself worth so much so much. I would depend on a earnings based valuation for a plantation company.

Hey newbiestockreturns,
I am really very curious, just curious. What have I done to you that warrants you to keep on follow me and attack me? I don't know you. I have never offended you. Please clarify.

Posted by Jaack1 > Oct 3, 2013 07:32 PM | Report Abuse

03.10.13

Dear Mr Chong,

Please have a good look at MWE Holdings Bhd – they have always been profitable & I think MWE is getting more interesting.

MWE hived off their plantation and electronic businesses and recently bought a 27% stake in Kumpulan Europlus Bhd.

In your view, is this good for mid ~ long term investment?

Tks/Rgds
Jack

I think investing in MWE is a very safe investment. It has a lot of cash and cash equivalent, investment in quoted and unquoted shares. Its latest balance sheet shows this cash and cash equivalent of more than RM2 per share is worth more than its share price now.

Yes, their business has been profitable too and there is no worry of burning of whatever cash it has.

As its purchase of Keuro, I really don't know how it will turn out. Was it a good buy. I don't know also. I don't have a good impression for the old Keuro, not sure of the new Keuro. New toll highway? It all depend if the management can manage the project well or not. May be with IJM will help.

Posted by calvintaneng > Oct 3, 2013 01:30 AM | Report Abuse
However, PTaras is A CYCLICAL STOCK IN NATURE. It BOOMS IN GOOD TIMES BUT CAN ALSO CRASH IN BAD TIMES.
WE FORESEE DANGER GOING FORWARD. WHY?
1) GOVT RAISED PETROL. PRODUCTION COST WILL GO UP. IT MEANS LESS PROFIT.
2) GOVT CATCHING ILLEGAL FOREIGNERS. A WHOLE LOT OF PAINT JOB HAS NO WORKERS. THAT MEANS SLOW DOWN IN PAINT SALES. PTARAS METAL CAN SALE WILL SLOW. DOWN
3) And Govt is Trying To Cut Cost because Foreign Rating Agency Gave us Negative Rating For Runaway Deficit Spending. That's why RINGGIT CRASHING.
All these FACTORS ARE REAL & WILL IMPACT ON PTARAS BOTTOM LINE.
That's Why It Is Better To Sell PTaras Which Has Run Up A LOT FROM RM1.40 to Almost RM6.00. Because Price might retrace back to RM5.00 or LESS.
Unlike Ptaras which IS CYCLICAL, PM CORP(4081) IS RECESSION PROOF.

calvin, (1) can you tell us which year did Pintaras "crash" as mentioned by you? After the Asian financial crisis in 1999? During the US sublime mortgage crisis? How was it "crash"?

(2) You talked about Pintaras paint business. How significant is this paint business for the group?

(3) Pintaras share price ran up to "almost RM6.00" (in fact close to 6.50) and you think the price must retrace. what are the reasons the share price of a company retraces, because of the price run up, or the value not catching up with the price?

(4) What is the estimate value of Pintaras then?

(5) You talked about "high" PE of Pintaras at just 9 at the present share price of 5.95? And if you disregard the excess cash, a PE of 6 high for a construction company having a net profit margin of 30%, and a return of invested capital of 30%?

(6) Why must investing in PM Corp and Pintaras mutually exclusive? Why must you tell somebody to sell Pintaras, then only invest in PM Corp?

(7) Pintaras's business is cyclical, no doubt. But as long as you value it as a cyclical company and not overpaying for it, won't that be ok?

(8) PM Corp "recession proof"? Well I differ in this. PM Corp's attractiveness as an investment now is because of its quality assets, not so much of its recession proof chocolate business. That business is too small relatively.

(9) PM Corp has quality assets and no doubt about it at all. That was why I also invested in it after looking at its balance sheet after the alert from you. But beware of the management. Make damn sure that the quality assets also benefits the minority shareholder if you know what I mean. I trust Pintaras's Dr Chiu much much more than KKP.

izoklse,
I know I know. You are a smart guy. I was just being cheeky. No harm intended.

Yeah calvin's information is very detail and comprehensive. I also invested in PM Corp because of his alert.

Cheers.

Posted by Avocado_C > Oct 3, 2013 03:01 PM | Report Abuse
I guess PMCorp not KCChong's cup of tea ... The biz prospect is not very exciting as of now, clearly this counter falls into the "penny stock" play now (happy for those who already made money). But of course, Calvin's effort in promoting this stock (in other threads) have certainly helped create awareness among the members here (ha ha, not you jump I jump lah). So KC, chill a bit lah :-)

Avocado, you are wrong here. If you read my post, I have mentioned that PM Corp is a great asset play. Its asset is quality assets.

For me in investing, I am not looking for excitement, but for value, and PM Corp offers value, no doubt about it. Penny stock is not an issue for me. What matters to me is value vs price. So you were wrong about me again here.

Fabian, good one. Few can see what you saw.

But you are talking about the quarterly report, not the annual financial results. Sometimes one should not based on a quarterly result to pass a judgement because certain things such as receivables and payable made could be due to seasonality. That negative CFO is due to change in working capital. But even that what is a million negative CFO compared with its total assets of 340m?

If you look at its year end financial results for the last two years, both years have positive CFO. there is 5m of CFFO in 2012.

If you are concern about cash burning, you should look at Ebit, orEbitda. PM Corp constantly has positive ebit.

So I have to thank calvin too.

Posted by Avocado_C > Oct 3, 2013 02:43 PM | Report Abuse
Mr. KCChong, did you invest in PMCorp? I remembered reading yesterday under KFIMA's thread that you agreed with Calvin that PMCorpo is a good investment...

Avocado, I usually walk the talk. From my talk you should know my walk. So did this one.

you jump i jump? uhm, what investment strategy is that?

That is why don’t always think that your charts is the holy grail in investing. PM Corp is clearly an asset play, a net net Graham investing strategy, coupled with some sort of good stories told by calvin, the special dividend etc.

It is just that I don’t know why calvin kept on emphasizing its chocolate business which is nothing as it is so small compared to the value of its quality assets and the stories. May be calvin knows more about this than what is available in the market.

Posted by SANG-JERO > Sep 29, 2013 10:49 PM | Report Abuse
People might call me an idiot but if I read the chart correctly...should there be any panic selling.. I predict the price might go down to below 0.13....I am not sure of the support level...Just my one sen opinion....I could be wrong....Good luck.....cheers..

Posted by SANG-JERO > Sep 30, 2013 09:31 AM | Report Abuse
weak sentiment this morning....very low bidder....PM Corp team has to support the price failing which it will crack..As at now....0.155 (1 bidder)...0.16 (4 bidder)...0.165 (1 bidder)...0.17 (10 bidder)....0.18 (1 bidder.......cheers...

Posted by SANG-JERO > Oct 1, 2013 09:51 PM | Report Abuse
Undervalue...not to worry....if you have the confident in PMcorp...go ahead and accumulate...keep on supporting so that the price won't fall...I am not in a hurry..I prefer to wait...who knows...the price might go below 0.10....just like the other companies in the group which is under PN17...

Posted by xyzsim > Oct 2, 2013 02:10 PM | Report Abuse
hi i'm new in warrant ..I had bought JCY-Co? May I know how am i convert to mother share ? Is this worth to convert?

Nobody responds to this? This is mine.

xyzsim, dabbling in warrants is not for you.

anbz, you are a fine gentleman. I have no personal grudge with you. I just offer my 2 cent to you in investing.

Remember if you want to build up your wealth in the stock market, you have to stand behind the shoulders of some of these investment giants:

“How many millionaires do you know who have become wealthy by investing in savings accounts? I rest my case.”
- Robert G. Allen

Hence one has to save and invest, the equity market is one of the good places to do it. But be wary of this statistics here (You learned statistic in U, didn't you?). Note that the period of this studies was a rising market.

[In their 2009 paper on “option trading and individual investor performance” , Rob Bauer, Mathijs Casemans and Piet Eichholtz examine the performance and persistence of individual investors trading at a Dutch online broker. Using a database consisting of more than 68,000 accounts and eight million trades in stocks during January 2000 to March 2006, they find that: During 2000-2006, the average investor has negative alphas, meaning the return is below the market return. Not even the top tenth of performance manages to beat the market consistently. Those in the bottom tenth of performance lose more than 90% of value.]

It is a jungle out there in the stock market. So what do you need to do? First you must armed yourself. Here are some of the things the giants said:

"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest": Benjamin Franklin

So go learn some basics in finance and investment such as how to read financial statements, some basic valuations etc. Believe me, they are much easier than statistics and calculus.

“I think you have to learn that there’s a company behind every stock.”
– Peter Lynch

So don't focus too much on price, the charts etc as trying to go in and out in the stock market is a loser game. It is speculating and you must know who you are speculating with. Remember what I quoted about the research about retail investors at the beginning of this long winded post? Follow what Ben Graham said below:

“The individual investor should act consistently as an investor and not as a speculator: Ben Graham

Focus on the company. Listen to what Greenblatt said about how to invest below:

•The secret to successful investing is to figure out the value of something and then-pay a lot less: Joel Greenblatt

Mr Market often behaves irrationally. When Mr Market is happy, the stock prices rise. When Mr Market gets moody, stocks fall. So it is easy to understand that if you know the business of the company well, and you want to build wealth, buy more when people sell cheap (if you can afford to), and sell to them when the price rises above its worth. Isn't that intuitive? Isn't that safer than the greater fools theory? Remember, you should be investing, not speculating. That is the only way you can be successful in the jungle out there.

So do not get distracted and listen to what Paul Samuelson said below:

“Investing should be more like watching paint dry or watching grass grow. If you want excitement, take $800 and go to Las Vegas.”
– Paul Samuelson

Hey anbz, well said.

But if you dabble in NovaMsc, a stock whose company is making losses every year and the major shareholders/management all digging into its shallow coffer, after the fun, if any, you will also exposed to this serious disease too.

focus-on-the-downside-and-let-the-upside-take-care-of-itself

Just read this article from Mark Sellers, a very successful US fund manager. This is a good guide to use for investing in warrants, in fact for any investment too.

http://www.gurufocus.com/news/106292/mark-sellers-speech-to-investors--focus-on-the-downside-and-let-the-upside-take-care-of-itself

Mark Sellers Speech to Investors – Focus on the Downside, and Let the Upside Take Care of Itself

http://www.gurufocus.com/news/106292/mark-sellers-speech-to-investors--focus-on-the-downside-and-let-the-upside-take-care-of-itself

inwest88, I would agree with you. It has a good gearing too at 5.3 times. Within this two and a half years before the expiry of Wc, is WCT share price spikes up, the reward will be great. That is because you buy it at low premium.

Again it depends on whether WCT will do well in the next two and a half years.

Avocado, my opinion is it is not a bad idea investing in Gamuda or IJM's company warrants when they are selling at a discount, especially if you are upbeat about the company's business. Why?

1) When you buy the warrant at a discount, your risk of losing is low while still maintaining the opportunity to make good money before the expiry date of the warrant whenever there is a spike of the volatility of the underlying share.
2) Within this couple of years whenever the underlying share goes up above the present price, the warrant will generally goes up in tandem. The return of warrant will generally be higher because of the gearing.
3) Even if the warrant price doesn't go up in tandem because of the supply and demand thing, you can convert to the underlying share and sell for a good profit.
4) One should look at the value of the warrant in relation to the underlying share, rather than speculate if there is demand for the warrant or not, because the speculation, well, is speculation.
5) If you buy the warrant at high premium and hope that the demand and supply thingy will raise up the price further, well you are speculating. Speculating and gambling with insiders and institutional investors who have all the resources to beat you, a small time retail speculator. Are you sure you can beat them in the game?

Posted by iafx > Oct 2, 2013 01:04 PM | Report Abuse
bsngpg's questions r the same time the answer; no pushing ball , smart fellow :)

bsngpg is definite a smart fellow, asking intelligent questions. Don't just take others opinions as face value. Very polite and courteous man.

This is unlike some people, especially this one who has nothing, absolutely nothing except accusing others copy and paste, tipu-pusing, bullshit, cheating without a single substantiation. Even accusing me of cheating about changing that "profit" into "revenue" when he is the one who altered the word, on the same thread here. Calling calvin the PM Corp guy a "black sheep" when calvin took so much effort explaining why PM Corp is a good investment, which I fully agreed. Really have no shame at all.

Ok let's get back to business to bsngpg.

Negative elements? I am already given my opinions on your first three. You want me to speculate some more of its negative elements? That Kfima will lose its security printing business, and its palm oil plantation may get disease and whole crop wiped out? Again, I have no crustal ball to tell me.

Okok, let me give my opinions on your the other post below:

Posted by bsngpg > Oct 2, 2013 12:24 PM | Report Abuse
Hi: I have another probable negative element on KFima for your comment. It is the non core competency on its biz. Nowadays the globalization turns biz world to very competitive. Only those with competitive edge can last long and win but not dick, tom and Harry. So what is KFima's competitive edge ? Plantation? Nope. Food industry? Nope. Bulking? Nope. Security printing? Yes in M'sia due to its special connection to the government. But how far can this biz grows?

As you know the main business of Kfima is security manufacturing and printing, palm oil and bulking. We just ignore others which are small relatively but if you look into them in more details, they are actually growing and provide positive return to the company.

Do you need any advance competency to involve in palm oil? Years ago, when Kfima started to deal in the palm oil industry, there were many skeptics. I would be one of them if I knew about it because Kfima had no experience at all. Now palm oil already constitute 30% of its net income. The revenue, income and profit has been consistent. Do you know that last year when palm oil price was low, many plantation company lost money? Do you know that Kfima's revenue and profit the last quarter actually increased?

Will Kfima lose its contract with Bank Negara and other banks? How the hell I know?

So what if the seller or his consultant say his business can grow at 20% for the next 5 years but the buyer and his consultant say from their crystal ball, the business would be stagnant at best?

Yeah, both Gamuda Wd and IJM Wc are trading at discounts, albeit very small. But both these warrants have been trading at discount most of the time if I am not wrong. Investors who have bet on the discount on Gamuda Wd say before the GE probably have done very well compared to those betting on IJM Wc. Both may have made good money.

The return on investing on company warrants depends mostly on the price and positive movement of the underlying share. How do you feel about the price of Gamuda and IJM share price now? Do you think they are likely to go up? Go up a little or a lot? etc.

The potential warrant investors in IJM and Gamuda appear to view that there may be limited upside on the underlying share, or the construction industry as a whole. Hence this may be the reason that they are not willing to pay any cost for the time value. Just guessing.