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84 comment(s). Last comment by paperplane 2019-10-13 23:22

kcchongnz

6,684 posts

Posted by kcchongnz > 2019-06-06 05:45 | Report Abuse

King36,

I have not used this ratio before. Goggling it there is an academic paper by Beaver William. You may learn something from there.

Anyway, when you invest in good companies, which you should instead of speculating, you need not go through these kinds of checks, unless you are thinking of shorting stocks, which itself is even a more speculative endeavor.

king36

1,022 posts

Posted by king36 > 2019-06-06 06:22 | Report Abuse

Posted by kcchongnz > Jun 6, 2019 5:45 AM | Report Abuse

King36,

I have not used this ratio before. Goggling it there is an academic paper by Beaver William. You may learn something from there.

Anyway, when you invest in good companies, which you should instead of speculating, you need not go through these kinds of checks, unless you are thinking of shorting stocks, which itself is even a more speculative endeavor.


TQ, KC.
Its a pleasure to learn from you always.

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-06-06 10:42 | Report Abuse

kc...nothing worse than half tong water.....second worse is running fire enter devil.

in any case, its just a tool, a financial ratio,

kc.....................high Z scores....I would assume all cash rich companies have high z scores,
other companies with high z scores.......companies in matured industries, companies over the hill, companies worth more dead than alive, companies with lousy growth prospects, companies with Directors without ambitions, companies investors call value traps..........and prominently in last few years, red chips with manipulated accounts.



so, kc....how about a new category called Z score traps?

Sslee

5,283 posts

Posted by Sslee > 2019-06-06 11:00 | Report Abuse

Hahahaha,
Pity poor qqq3, had not learns anything useful from his Buddhism study. Still hold tight to his past pain, resentment and animosity like a confusing young monk.

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-06-06 11:04 | Report Abuse

so ss....now u have a new category to play with ...its called z score traps............

Sslee

5,283 posts

Posted by Sslee > 2019-06-06 11:12 | Report Abuse

Hahahaha,
Long ago already knew SENDAI is a Z score trap.

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-06-06 11:49 | Report Abuse

Buddhism very useful...........With Buddhism, meditation, can see things clearly, can be enlightened,

not deluded.

BoPoint

154 posts

Posted by BoPoint > 2019-06-06 11:52 | Report Abuse

Wonderful educational material by KC. Thumbs up for your write up. Z-score is a good indicator. Coupled with some logical analysis of whether a business is recurring/cyclical/project-based etc, one can start investing with good foundation.

kcchongnz

6,684 posts

Posted by kcchongnz > 2019-06-06 12:00 | Report Abuse

Posted by qqq3 > Jun 6, 2019 1:12 AM | Report Abuse
kc.....................high Z scores....I would assume all cash rich companies have high z scores,
other companies with high z scores.......companies in matured industries, companies over the hill, companies worth more dead than alive, companies with lousy growth prospects, companies with Directors without ambitions, companies investors call value traps..........and prominently in last few years, red chips with manipulated accounts.


Hey ""Accountant"", look at the formula for Z-Score and those metrics used, which of your 7 categories of companies above fit the high Z-score you claimed to be? Name just one, not necessary all 7 and explain to justify if you have any common sense at all.

X1 = Working Capital / Total Assets
X2 = Retained Earnings / Total Assets
X3 = Earnings before Interest and Taxes / Total Assets
X4 = Market Value Equity / Book Value of Total Liabilities
X5 = Sales / Total Assets

Z = 1.20(X1) + 1.40 (X2) +3.30(X3) +.60(X4) + 1.0(X5)

Posted by new_in_share > 2019-06-06 12:09 | Report Abuse

Dear KC Chong, thank for info. Can you tell where(web link) to get latest Bursa listed companies Altman Z-score. Again thanks in advance.

Posted by new_in_share > 2019-06-06 12:23 | Report Abuse

Altman Z score is not static like share price right? It can be up or down depend on QR true?

kcchongnz

6,684 posts

Posted by kcchongnz > 2019-06-06 12:23 | Report Abuse

Posted by new_in_share > Jun 6, 2019 12:09 PM | Report Abuse
Dear KC Chong, thank for info. Can you tell where(web link) to get latest Bursa listed companies Altman Z-score. Again thanks in advance.

Hi new_in_share,

I hardly use Altman z-Score as I always try to find good companies to invest in, as good companies always have very high Z-score because of their consistent earnings and healthy balance sheets.

You should do that too. But in case you need to check z-Score because someone tells you to buy a random stock, here is a link which I just found out. Courtesy of king36 in his comments in this thread.

https://www.isaham.my/stock/awc

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-06-06 13:01 | Report Abuse

by kcchongnz > Jun 6, 2019 12:00 PM | Report Abuse

X1 = Working Capital / Total Assets
X2 = Retained Earnings / Total Assets
X3 = Earnings before Interest and Taxes / Total Assets
X4 = Market Value Equity / Book Value of Total Liabilities
X5 = Sales / Total Assets
=================================
kc


chicken or egg? which comes first? good business or good scores?
what does one or two bad years do to all the scores? do the scores affect the business or the business affects the scores?

how good is it as a forecasting tool? assuming zero knowledge of the business.


investing is participating in the growth of excellent business. At the end of the day, it is still good business ( sense ), good management and good numbers in this order, not the other way round.

in the hands of people who are not ready, it is easily transformed into half tong water. Seeing the trees not the forest.

As Buddhist like to say, cause and effect.....but which is cause which is effect? chicken or egg?

and reliability of the tool?

stockraider

31,556 posts

Posted by stockraider > 2019-06-06 13:07 | Report Abuse

Does it matter which come 1st ??

It is natural mah....a good business will attract a good score & bad business will attract a bad score loh...!!

Do not get confuse argue for sake of argue academically loh...!!

Posted by qqq3 > Jun 6, 2019 1:01 PM | Report Abuse

by kcchongnz > Jun 6, 2019 12:00 PM | Report Abuse

X1 = Working Capital / Total Assets
X2 = Retained Earnings / Total Assets
X3 = Earnings before Interest and Taxes / Total Assets
X4 = Market Value Equity / Book Value of Total Liabilities
X5 = Sales / Total Assets
=================================
kc


chicken or egg? which comes first? good business or good scores?
what does one or two bad years do to all the scores? do the scores affect the business or the business affects the scores?

how good is it as a forecasting tool? assuming zero knowledge of the business.


investing is participating in the growth of excellent business. At the end of the day, it is still good business ( sense ), good management and good numbers in this order, not the other way round.

in the hands of people who are not ready, it is easily transformed into half tong water. Seeing the trees not the forest.

As Buddhist like to say, cause and effect.....but which is cause which is effect? chicken or egg?

and reliability of the tool?

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-06-06 13:11 |

Post removed.Why?

stockraider

31,556 posts

Posted by stockraider > 2019-06-06 13:20 | Report Abuse

OTB is more successful than u loh....!!

U call that mistake ?? Raider don't loh.....!!

Posted by qqq3 > Jun 6, 2019 1:11 PM | Report Abuse

y stockraider > Jun 6, 2019 1:07 PM | Report Abuse

Does it matter which come 1st ??
============

your good friend OTB regularly keeps repeating the same mistakes ...OTB and his rear view drive has regularly produced disappointing results going forward......

so, I ask the same question...chicken or egg?

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-06-06 13:21 |

Post removed.Why?

stockraider

31,556 posts

Posted by stockraider > 2019-06-06 13:25 | Report Abuse

He is a good image....loh....!!


Posted by qqq3 > Jun 6, 2019 1:21 PM | Report Abuse

stockraider > Jun 6, 2019 1:20 PM | Report Abuse

OTB is more successful than u loh....!!
=======

what I know for sure is OTB is an image peddlar......

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-06-06 13:30 | Report Abuse

well, I guess his life depends on it.

Sslee

5,283 posts

Posted by Sslee > 2019-06-06 13:37 | Report Abuse

Hahahaha,
People are now talking about AI and lab make meat you are still asking chicken and egg.

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-06-06 13:45 | Report Abuse

sslee

solving problems starts from defining a problem.....knowing cause and effect.......chicken or egg?

Sslee

5,283 posts

Posted by Sslee > 2019-06-06 13:52 | Report Abuse

Hahahaha,
Agreed with you first statement "solving problems start from defining a problem" so have you define and found what are your problems?

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-06-06 13:58 | Report Abuse

sslee

I where got problems? I got no problem. I am happy and positive and needs no image peddling......I am self sufficient already.

Sslee

5,283 posts

Posted by Sslee > 2019-06-06 14:02 | Report Abuse

Hahahaha,
Your problems is you do not have problems? A good first step to start with finding your problems.

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-06-06 14:47 | Report Abuse

no ambition then no problems la... it's really that simple. after all, how much can eat?

Sslee

5,283 posts

Posted by Sslee > 2019-06-06 15:12 | Report Abuse

Hahahaha,
Qqq3, even enlighten Buddha also has problems in passing his truth teaching of non-attachment, freedom from impurities of mind and suffering to his followers. So how can we mortal human have no problems?

Posted by witchslayer > 2019-06-06 15:13 |

Post removed.Why?

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-06-06 15:42 | Report Abuse

Sslee > Jun 6, 2019 3:12 PM | Report Abuse

Hahahaha,
Qqq3, even enlighten Buddha
==========

his problem is he want to be Buddha.....not my problem.....

kcchongnz

6,684 posts

Posted by kcchongnz > 2019-06-06 15:46 | Report Abuse

Posted by qqq3 > Jun 5, 2019 6:32 PM | Report Abuse
kc...like I say, I am a pro....any thing also I do, good bad ugly also I do.......
but for novices, stick to quality, low turnover should be better than your value here, value there, Z score here, Z score there.


Z score here Z Score there?
You know what; when you were touting sailang and margin two years ago on Sendai, telling everyone to follow your sailang here sailang there, margin here margin there on Sendai, the Z-score then was already telling you a big red flag as below,

X1 = Working Capital / Total Assets 0.15734
X2 = Retained Earnings / Total Assets 0.01956
X3 = Earnings before Interest and Taxes / Total Assets -0.04723
X4 = Market Value Equity / Book Value of Total Liabilities 0.51650
X5 = Sales / Total Assets 0.53073
Z 0.90097

So was Z Score a good predictor on rubbish stock Sendai?

Absolutely!

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-06-06 16:02 | Report Abuse

kc.....the problem with Sendai is collection for the two tug boats.....if they had collected for the two tug boats, the situation is totally different.....

your z score here z score there knows the problem meh?

Sslee

5,283 posts

Posted by Sslee > 2019-06-06 16:27 | Report Abuse

Hahahaha,
Qqq3 is a wily old fox, “no ambition then no problems la... it's really that simple” and his excuse “I am a pro....any thing also I do, good bad ugly also I do.......” cannot hide his ambition to be as rich as KYY when he reach his age nor exonerate his sins of sailang here sailang there, margin here margin there on Sendai and Jaks.

Even KYY was extremely impressed with qqq3’s “sailang” that he wrote an article to explain what is “sailang”? and his used of margin finance to maximize profit.
https://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/koonyewyinblog/166599.jsp

Not knowing that according to Uncensored Malaysia Dictionary: “Sailang” mean the act of stealing someone's lover

kcchongnz

6,684 posts

Posted by kcchongnz > 2019-06-06 16:44 | Report Abuse

Posted by qqq3 > Jun 6, 2019 4:02 PM | Report Abuse
your z score here z score there knows the problem meh?

I don't know the problem? Do you know how many articles I have shared in i3investor alone on Sendai since two three years ago when you were shouting sailang here sailang there and margin here and margin there?

They all came with numerous comments of qqq, stockmanny, and maybe Desa6769, Lonranger, Brightsmart. Go back and read the threads and the silly comments you put up there.

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-06-06 16:48 | Report Abuse

kc...looking for short cuts don't work, not knowing cause from effect don't work, or worse giving wrong prescription for misdiagnosed problem.

kcchongnz

6,684 posts

Posted by kcchongnz > 2019-06-06 16:53 | Report Abuse

Posted by qqq3 > Jun 6, 2019 4:02 PM | Report Abuse
kc.....the problem with Sendai is collection for the two tug boats.....if they had collected for the two tug boats, the situation is totally different.....

Are you sure Sendai build ""tug boat""? You asked people to sailang her sailang there, margin here margin there, but you don't even know what Sendai does? OMG!

But the nonpayment was precisely the balance sheet was bloated resulting its low Z Score. That is also how Z-Score can catch that there and useful in the assessment of its bankruptcy risk. Yes, you don't even have to know what Sendai does to know the big problem there.

By the way, can tell us why after so many years, the debts on your ""tug boat"" still not paid? Isn't that a big headed devil there? But with this big-headed devil, why did you pestered others to sailag here and sailang there, margin here and margin there?

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-06-06 17:05 | Report Abuse

kc


sendai...............40 sen to $ 1.40 between Sept 2016 and June 2017 also want to complain.....now back to 40 sen also want to complain......go buy Sendai lah.......I think its a good one at this price...sailang and margin if you want........

kcchongnz

6,684 posts

Posted by kcchongnz > 2019-06-06 17:11 | Report Abuse

Posted by qqq3 > Jun 6, 2019 5:05 PM | Report Abuse
kc
sendai...............40 sen to $ 1.40 between Sept 2016 and June 2017 also want to complain.....now back to 40 sen also want to complain......go buy Sendai lah.......I think its a good one at this price...sailang and margin if you want........


But did you ask people to buy when it was 40 sen and then went up to RM1.40, or the other way round?

Ask me to sailang and margin Sendai now? Good advice. But please answer the question below first so that I can make an informed decision.

""By the way, can tell us why after so many years, the debts on your ""tug boat"" still not paid? Isn't that a big headed devil there? But with this big-headed devil, why did you pestered others to sailag here and sailang there, margin here and margin there?""

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-06-06 17:14 | Report Abuse

kc..a slight delay lah.....nevermind, its back to 40 sen now...good time to sailang and margin......

Sslee

5,283 posts

Posted by Sslee > 2019-06-06 17:54 | Report Abuse

Hahahaha,
Qqq3 do not know what is a Liftboat from tugboat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liftboat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tugboat

The below are what TSN said after 2018 AGM.
https://themalaysianreserve.com/2018/06/01/eversendai-to-resume-work-on-2nd-liftboat-within-3-to-6-months-says-md/

Anyone attended the 29th May 2019 Sendai AGM, care to update what TSN promised?

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-06-06 18:21 | Report Abuse

its some kind of boat that took up $ 500 million in the balance sheet...........

kcchongnz

6,684 posts

Posted by kcchongnz > 2019-06-06 18:40 | Report Abuse

Posted by qqq3 > Jun 6, 2019 6:21 PM | Report Abuse
its some kind of boat that took up $ 500 million in the balance sheet...........


The construction of the lift boats for the private company of the major shareholder of Sendai started some time in 2014, of which the first one completed last year and appears to have rented out and earning revenue for the private company. But they don't pay Sendai for over RM500m now and its balance sheet is so precarious that the company can go bankrupt any time now.

You have no concern at all having mst of your money in this company?

You still ask people to sailang here sailang there, margin here margin there?

What is your motive?

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-06-06 19:39 | Report Abuse

kc..............Tan Sri got 70% in Sendai.....Slight delay but Sendai will be paid......now 40 sen, best time to buy.

stockraider

31,556 posts

Posted by stockraider > 2019-06-06 23:45 |

Post removed.Why?

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-06-06 23:49 | Report Abuse

stockraider > Jun 6, 2019 11:45 PM | Report Abuse

Like u say loh.."Stick to quality mah"...why in this case here, u talkcock leh ??
==========

stick to quality is good enough for the masses, for the layperson, but for experts like KcChong, he should get involved in Sendai for bigger rewards.

paperplane

21,609 posts

Posted by paperplane > 2019-10-11 23:46 | Report Abuse

Altman-z, mana Ultraman-Z

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-10-12 00:13 | Report Abuse

ulta man got, u want ulta man?

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-10-12 00:15 | Report Abuse

what score lah....Armada from 15 sen to 40 sen.................

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-10-12 01:47 | Report Abuse

Jake from 50 to 90

qqq3

13,202 posts

Posted by qqq3 > 2019-10-12 01:49 | Report Abuse

Sendai a bit delayed.... maybe in a few months a different story

kcchongnz

6,684 posts

Posted by kcchongnz > 2019-10-12 08:52 | Report Abuse

Posted by qqq3 > Oct 12, 2019 1:49 AM | Report Abuse
Sendai a bit delayed.... maybe in a few months a different story

What delay? When the following statements were made, Sendai was trading at RM1.20, it went down to 70 sen in 8 months for a loss of 42% while the market was booming.

[Posted by stockmanmy > Jul 7, 2017 11:25 AM | Report Abuse
Jaks and Sendai are for super investors...These super investors intend to make multiple baggers from Jaks and Sendai and already half way there.]

Again, when the following statement was made, Sendai dropped from 95 sen to close at 38.5 sen, for a loss of whopping 60% in two years.

[stockmanmy has left a new comment on your post "Margin Finance, Ever-Sendai: A real time case study kcchongnz": Sept 27 2017
sendai from 80 sen to 95 sen now...................
KC lousy timing, lousy business sense and lousy analysis.]

So where got delayed? Very fast indeed. What will happen to Sendai share price in a few months’ time, Stockmanny, qqq3, Brightsmart, Desa6769, Loneranger, etc.?

paperplane

21,609 posts

Posted by paperplane > 2019-10-13 23:22 | Report Abuse

Kc, where got prove value investing woek in msia?? All goreng

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