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For knowledge sharing - Hydrogen. “fuel cells = fool sells” ?

Genetec A baby step
Publish date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022, 04:29 PM
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https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/06/elon-musk-has-strong-views-on-hydrogen-and-not-everyone-agrees.html

Elon Musk has strong views on hydrogen. Not everyone agrees

Anmar Frangoul

 

Key Points
  • Electric vehicles have batteries that need to be charged by plugging the vehicle into a charging point, whereas fuel cell vehicles utilize hydrogen gas and “generate their electricity onboard.”
  • Firms including Toyota and Hyundai have produced hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, while smaller manufacturers such as Riversimple are also working on hydrogen-powered cars.
  • Tesla CEO Elon Musk has previously described hydrogen fuel-cells as “extremely silly,” but his views aren’t shared by everyone in the autos sector.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk has a history of expressing strong opinions about hydrogen and hydrogen fuel cells.

A few years ago, when the subject came up during a discussion with reporters at the Automotive News World Congress, the billionaire and electric vehicle magnate described hydrogen fuel cells as “extremely silly.”

“It’s just very difficult ... to make hydrogen and store it and use it in a car,” Musk said. “The best-case hydrogen fuel cell doesn’t win against the current case batteries, so then, obviously ... it doesn’t make sense,” he added later.

“That will become apparent in the next few years. There’s ... no reason for us to have this debate, I’ve said … my piece on this, it will be super obvious as time goes by, I don’t know what more to say.”

In the time since those remarks, Musk’s views don’t seem to have changed much, if at all. In June 2020 he tweeted “fuel cells = fool sells,”  adding in July of that year: “hydrogen fool sells make no sense.” Musk was not immediately available to comment on whether his views on hydrogen had changed when contacted via Tesla by CNBC Monday.

The tech

First things first: What underpins the tech Musk seems so skeptical of?

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency describes hydrogen fuel cell vehicles — which are also known as fuel cell electric vehicles — as being “similar to electric vehicles … in that they use an electric motor instead of an internal combustion engine to power the wheels.”

The key difference is that electric vehicles have batteries that need to be charged by plugging the vehicle into a charging point. Fuel cell vehicles, on the other hand, utilize hydrogen gas and, according to the EPA, “generate their electricity onboard.”

Put simply, with fuel cells, hydrogen gas from a tank mixes with oxygen, producing electricity.

A fuel cell electric vehicle emits “only water vapor and warm air”, the U.S. Department of Energy’s Alternative Fuels Data Center says.

A range of views

Musk is not alone when it comes to being unconvinced about the use of hydrogen in cars.

In February of this year, Herbert Diess, the CEO of German automotive powerhouse Volkswagen Group, weighed in on the subject.

“It’s time for politicians to accept science,” he tweeted. “Green hydrogen is needed for steel, chemical, aero … and should not end up in cars. Far too expensive, inefficient, slow and difficult to rollout and transport. After all: no #hydrogen cars in sight.”

 

Musk and Diess are two high-profile figures at the helm of major companies with huge influence and reach. What they say carries weight. It would appear, however, that their views aren’t shared by everyone in the autos sector.

To date, firms including Toyota and Hyundai have produced hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, while smaller manufacturers such as Riversimple are also working on hydrogen-powered cars.

In June, the BMW Group said it had started to test vehicles that use a hydrogen fuel cell drivetrain, with the company describing hydrogen fuel cell tech as having the “long term potential to supplement internal combustion engines, plug-in hybrid systems and battery-electric vehicles.”

Although these products obviously don’t account for the bulk of car sales at this moment in time — Riversimple won’t actually sell its cars, offering them on a subscription service instead — that such a range of companies are working on fuel-cell offerings at all shows some see potential in the technology.

“Fuel cell cars will certainly play a part in decarbonizing transport,” a spokesperson for Toyota told CNBC.

“As and when refueling infrastructure expands, they will offer a convenient alternative form of electrified transport over a fully electric BEV [battery-powered electric vehicles],” they said.

Toyota viewed hydrogen “as an alternative to fossil fuels in all manner of settings, including heating, lighting, haulage, mass transit and heavy industry,” the spokesperson said.

“The range of hydrogen applications will increase, enabling cheaper, more efficient power supply and we’ll increasingly see hydrogen powering cars, buses, trains and trucks,” they added.

In a statement sent to CNBC, the Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Energy Association expressed a similar viewpoint.

Fuel cell electric vehicles and hydrogen energy, the FCHEA said, offered customers “a zero-emission option with performance they expect and no change to daily routines — long range, quick refueling, and the ability to scale to larger platforms without adding restrictive weight and size.”

The FCHEA went on to say there was a “tremendous opportunity for fuel cell electric cars and fuel cell-powered material handling vehicles.”  

“Also, given the limitations of battery weight and recharging for long haul trucking, a significant opportunity also exists for medium- and heavy-duty delivery vans, trucks, buses, trains, and planes,” it said.

Indeed, as governments around the world attempt to develop low and zero emission transportation systems, the notion of using hydrogen fuel cells in larger vehicles is starting to be explored by a broad range of companies.

In a recent interview with CNBC, the CEO of Daimler Truck was asked about the debate between battery-electric and hydrogen fuel cells. Balance, Martin Daum argued, was key.

“We go for both, because both … make sense,” he said, going on to explain how different technologies would be appropriate in different scenarios.

“In general, you can say: If you go to city delivery where you need lower amounts of energy in there, you can charge overnight in a depot, then it’s certainly battery electric,” Daum said.

“But the moment you’re on the road, the moment you go from Stockholm to Barcelona … in my opinion, you need something which you can transport better and where you can refuel better and that is ultimately H2.”

“The ruling is not out, but I think it’s too risky for a company our size to go with just one technology.”

Versatility

Daum’s comments on fuel cells touch upon the idea that they could, eventually, find a home in heavier forms of transport covering long distances, hauling cargo and, in some cases, ferrying people from one destination to another.

He’s not alone in taking this view. The European transport giant Alstom, for instance, has developed the Coradia iLint, which it describes as “the world’s first passenger train powered by a hydrogen fuel cell.”

In aviation, plans to operate commercial hydrogen-electric flights between London and Rotterdam were announced in October, with those behind the project hoping it will take to the skies in 2024.

In construction, JCB, a major player in the sector, said last year that it had developed an excavator “powered by a hydrogen fuel cell.”

Weighing 20 metric tons, the company said the vehicle had been tested for over 12 months, adding that the “only emission from the exhaust is water.”

Challenges

While there is a sense of excitement about the use of hydrogen fuel cell technology in a variety of applications, the path to any mass rollout may not necessarily be a smooth one.

Earlier this year, Honda ceased production of its Clarity plug-in hybrid and fuel cell models, although the company did make a point of saying that fuel cell electric vehicles would “play a key role in our zero-emissions strategy.”

Elsewhere, the U.S. government has cited a number of challenges. These range from the durability and reliability of fuel cells to vehicle cost.

“The current infrastructure for producing and getting hydrogen to consumers cannot yet support the widespread adoption of FCVs,” it adds.

In February 2020, Brussels-based campaign group Transport and Environment hammered home just how much competition hydrogen would face in the transportation sector.

T&E made the point that green hydrogen — which is produced using renewables — wouldn’t only have to “compete with grey and blue hydrogen,” which are produced using fossil fuels. “It will compete with petrol, diesel, marine fuel oil, kerosene and, of course, electricity,” T&E said.

“Wherever batteries are a practical solution — cars; vans; urban, regional and perhaps long-haul trucks; ferries — hydrogen will face an uphill struggle because of its lower efficiency and, as a result, much higher fuel costs.”

Bridging the gap between battery electric and fuel cell vehicles will be a huge task, as the International Energy Agency’s Global EV Outlook 2021 notes.

According to that report, registrations of fuel cell electric vehicles “remain three orders of magnitude lower than EVs as hydrogen refuelling stations … are not widely available and unlike EVs cannot be charged at home.”

The race to dominate the low and zero emission future of 21st-century transportation is underway.

When it comes to cars, battery electric vehicles are in a strong position with firms such as Tesla leading the charge, but the road to success is never a straight one. Watch this space.

 

 

 

 


https://insideevs.com/features/567002/hydrogen-versus-electric-cars/

Is There A Future In Hydrogen?

We talk with an automotive industry CEO on the future of hydrogen. Here's what he thinks.

 

 
 

In the clean technology sector, hydrogen remains an incredibly debated subject, with some viewing it as anything from a vacuous concept to a real threat to electric cars. 

 

To address this divide, I spoke with Michael Perschke (watch the video interview found at the end of this article). Perschke has been the CEO of Audi India, founding CEO of Automobili Pininfarina, and now CEO at Quantron AG, a German company producing electric and fuel cell trucks and buses. 

Before debating these two forms of propulsion, it’s vital to understand how each functions. 

The Basics of EV Versus Hydrogen:

In a battery electric vehicle, its propulsion system is relatively straightforward: the battery is the energy source, and the electric motors utilize that energy for propulsion. When fully charged, the lithium ions stay in the anode, but they tend towards the cathode to become more stable when the circuit is closed. As the lithium ions travel through the separator, the electrons travel through a circuit, thus generating electricity. 

When an electric car decelerates, the electric motors can act as a generator and recuperate electricity back into the battery pack. Depending on the model, these battery packs can range from around 30kWh for daily commuters to north of 100kWh for long-distance cruisers. 

800 volt on-board power supply of the Porsche Taycan Turbo S (source: https://newsroom.porsche.com/de/2021/unternehmen/porsche-cellforce-basf-entwicklungspartner-lithium-ionen-batterien-25192.html)

Like a battery electric vehicle, a fuel cell car (FCEV) functions similarly. Instead of a large battery pack, it has a small one similar to what you’d find in a traditional hybrid, like a Prius. An FCEV powertrain also houses an electric motor, which drives the vehicle 100% of the time. But most importantly, there’s a fuel cell. 

Hydrogen is inserted from the onboard tanks on one end of the fuel cell, called the anode. At the anode, catalyzing reactions occur, stripping an electron from the hydrogen. On the cathode, oxygen, filtered from the environment, attracts the positively charged hydrogen to form water While the hydrogen travels across to the cathode, the electron is sent through a circuit, which generates electricity. 

Toyota Claims Mass Production Of Fuel Cell Vehicles Will Start Soon

While the fuel cell is the most significant component of the system, the battery is also a necessity for efficiency. Since the car uses an electric motor, there is a possibility for a regenerative gain. The small battery is primarily used for regenerative braking purposes, but it can also charge during regular fuel cell operation. 

What Are The Drawbacks to Hydrogen?


For hydrogen-powered cars, there are several drawbacks compared to electrics. The most prominent in America are the lack of infrastructure and expensive fueling costs. For public hydrogen refueling stations, the only locations where they exist are in California. On top of that, the main cities housing these stations are in and around Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Sacramento. For all intents and purposes, say you own a 2022 Toyota Mirai and want to drive from LA to Sequoia National Forest. Since it has a range of 402 miles, you’d have to make sure that wherever you’re going isn’t farther than 200 miles away, or else you won’t be able to make it back, and that would be cutting it close. Essentially, a hydrogen car is limited to in-city driving with today’s infrastructure. 

Toyota Mirai

On the topic of infrastructure, hydrogen is currently pricey. A kilogram costs between $10 to $15. A typical FCEV like the Hyundai Nexo holds around 6.3 kgs with a range of 380 miles. That means it would cost between $63 and $95 to go 380 miles. Even comparing this California’s costly energy rate of $0.23 per kWh (EIA) with a Mercedes EQS 450+, it would be around $25 to go a full 350 miles, or $27 for 380 miles (with an additional charge). 

So, the point stands, an electric car is simply cheaper to operate and more versatile than an FCEV, but is there still a place for them?

According to Perschke, hydrogen vehicles still have a place, but that position is not in the personal vehicle segment. "I personally believe that having a passenger car on hydrogen is not needed," Perschke said. "We are soon going to see 350 to 500 miles becoming the new standard." With over 350 miles of range, most drivers would not need to alter their driving habits completely.

 

However, a domain where EVs lag is in mid to long-distance trucking. While there are some options on the road now, like the Nikola Tre, most are aimed at short-distance and last-mile delivery type scenarios. For those situations, an electric truck like the Tre is excellent, but it just wouldn't work too well for long-distance applications.

Tesla Semi trucks at a fast charging (Megacharging) station at the Gigafactory 1 in Nevada

"When on paper these trucks claim to do 250 to 300 miles, the real range of these trucks is [much less]," Perschke told InsideEVs. "If the grid doesn't give the charging you expect, you can be on the charging port for a couple of hours; this is where we see hydrogen."

While hydrogen trucks will still have a much higher upfront price than a comparable diesel truck, ESG ratings and zero-emission European cities will help sway OEMs to make the switch. Suppose your company doesn't have a zero-emission fleet. In that case, you may not be able to deliver your goods to customers, or worse, your ESG rating could take a hit, threatening the possibility of delisting.

Albeit, Perschke acknowledges that we're in a nascent stage in the adoption of hydrogen. "We are in the hydrogen economy [now], probably where Elon Musk was in 2010 or 2012," Perschke said. The infrastructure will surely have to grow to adopt hydrogen trucks, but in certain European countries where Quantron does most of its business dealings, demand seems to be soaring.

For America, it's just a race of time and technology. If Tesla can prove itself in range and performance with the Semi, electric could win, but there's still some hope for hydrogen.   

 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPTxpBbl274

 

 

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