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[转帖] 價值投資值得懷疑 - 止凡

Tan KW
Publish date: Tue, 05 May 2015, 10:49 PM
Tan KW
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2015年5月5日星期二 

 
在其中一篇文章之中,blog友留言討論有關對價值投資的看法,語意間看到一些保留意見,當中也有不少論點帶出一些反思的空間,今天另發一文討論一下。



加布里留言:

一直很喜歡止凡兄的文章,所以不是踩場,只是想討論一下。很同意ng Wai兄的意見,自己也是在股海浮沉多年,其實是不是價值投資是否真的那麼重要?是否不是價值投資便不是正確的投資態度?如果自己一直認為組合是價值投資,但多年來回報也是普通或沒有,又可以怎樣處理?最大問題和ng Wai兄所講的一樣,多年來我只看到講價值投資的人很多,但賺到大錢的可能只有巴非特一個。人沒有幾多個十年,當年紀越大,越沒有時間去等待一些不知道對不對的理論。如果不對又可以怎樣?


ng Wai留言:

多謝你認同我的意見,其實投資最緊要是賺錢,價值投資是否一定賺錢我不敢否定,但股市 是英雄地,勝者為王,若持有十年八載價值才會浮現,我肯定不會了,早排我看過幾個價值投資的博客,組合千瘡百孔,慘不忍睹,現在恆指是創出六年多新高,理 論上組合同步創新高才是,有些留言者還受到重創,更要離場休息,可悲。


加布里留言:

我反而不在意恆指升多少,我更在意自己的組合升多少。在價值投資裏有一個要點是會強調 複利的威力,即是每年上升15 %,大約五年本金便可以翻一番。理念是不要介意短期賺得少,要注重長期的增長。但除了巴非特平均年回報大約22%,有那一個組合可以有年回報15%?如果 有,肯定已經出來大大聲講,這便是我看不到的証據。我不是否定價值投資,但當我自己做不到(做了10多年),我會問自己以後我應該怎樣走?其實那些博客死 守下去,說些似是而非的藉口,已經不是價值投資了,因為組合沒有複利效應,也不是長期增長。


止凡回應:

我沒有感到你在踩場,對於你的擔心甚至質疑,亦是一個值得反思的好機會。

我其實沒有太在意股價,只看手持東西的價值,可能你會話無聊,但的確如此。如果要理解 的話,可以想像巴菲特的投資概念,也可以想像絕大部份富豪的模式,他們對優質資產多是有買無賣,只是在不同時期增持速度有所不同。我不知怎樣說出這個思 維,但我實在無興趣計身家及每年回報,或每年贏輸多少。

其實價值投資乃一個概念,是很合理的概念,買「抵買」的,就是這麽簡單,只不過今天不 少人會注意短期升幅,把買「抵買」變為買「會升」的,問題是何謂「會升」呢?又拿往日的一些價格作為價值的考慮,慢慢地下注買入了不再「抵買」的東西,但 又有很多理由令自己以為是「抵買」,這篇文章(指《你真的在價值投資嗎?》)就是在提醒這點而已,不同意也沒大問題,重點在分享。


後記:

當朋友跟我討論有關價值投資有沒有效用,認為散戶較應該研究技術分析,買「會升」的股票云云,我都經常說一個概念,就是什麼樣的操作成功與否,就看世界上最成功的人在運用什麼操作,什麼理念。

答案顯而易見,不只股神巴菲特一個,還有絕大部份的富豪,都是運用價值投資的,甚至是非常集中到單一企業,即他們擁有的企業。在富豪之中,有多少個在玩弄技術分析呢?有多少個在計算什麼beta值、牛熊分界線、黃金交叉之類呢?我不常發現。

正如我上面的回應都說過,其實價值投資是很合理,甚至是常識,並不是要等待一個不知名結果的操作方法,也不需要賠上時間值。簡單一點,買一斤豬肉,付100 元當然比付200元的好,沒有取巧,正是同一斤豬肉,100元還是200元,誰會說付200元較可取呢?價值投資就只是這麼簡單的一個概念,買入「抵買」 的,持有貨超所值的東西,再配合時間值的威力。重點是怎樣能看出資產的價值,這才是高下之分野。

如果轉投其他投資理念,感覺就好像故意拿200元去買這斤豬肉,因為計算到豬肉價格的 beta值、牛熊分界線、黃金交叉之類,我開始在亂講,因為我實在不理解這些行徑。懷疑自己所做的事情是反思的好機會,每當我感到迷惑的時候,我都會還原 基本步去反思一次,認為所做的都是合理的話,人家賺得比自己多,這也沒太大感覺。

可能從小都是理科人吧,我認為合理性很重要,聽見人家賺錢,會不時提醒自己六合彩每期 都有人中。拿10元博800萬彩金,而中奬要求是49個數字中6個,即1400萬份之一的機會率,這個不值博,博則不合理,而每期都有人因為中了六合彩而 發達,比我更富有,也不代表這方法的合理性。
 

 

Discussions
2 people like this. Showing 13 of 13 comments

bsngpg

Great article. Worth a read, pause and think.

2015-05-05 23:01

kcchongnz

Yeah, really good article, and worthy of thinking over it.

2015-05-06 04:48

apini

I like this statement: "價值投資就只是這麼簡單的一個概念,買入「抵買」 的,持有貨超所值的東西,再配合時間值的威力。重點是怎樣能看出資產的價值,這才是高下之分野。

It is just that simple as I always say, "investing is just like fishing, get a right spot, set your hook and wait for the big fish to get hooked".
the problem is not many people can wait , not many are that well disciplined and able to pick stocks based on a set of preset criteria. what they want is to win big and fast. so their game need more luck than skill.
not many people know that to win big, you must dare to lose big. of course affordable loss so that even though you lose all your money , you still have food to eat. so do away the greed, then money is just figure in the bank or market.
how to do away the greed? this is a big problem. more difficult than investing

2015-05-06 09:39

tkp1

"還有絕大部份的富豪,都是運用價值投資的,甚至是非常集中到單一企業,即他們擁有的企業。在富豪之中,有多少個在玩弄技術分析呢?有多少個在計算什麼beta值、牛熊分界線、黃金交叉之類呢?我不常發現。"

Strongly agree with the above statement. For me, I like to just focus on 1 or 2 counters, and I am perfectly ok to put 100% of my capital in this 1 counter if I find that the counter is very under value, and buy a big sum of it during the low price, and just keep it until it hit my TP without bother the price fluctuation in between. I start to make more than 60-70% by using this strategy this year, as compared to lose last year where I like to jump in and out and focus on too many counters. The key point is how do you know which are the counter? If you don't spend too much time in too many counters and trade frequently/daily, you will have time to do a lot research, reading, slowly you will be able to develop that kind sense when you see an opportunity, you will feel so strongly about it, that's the opportunity you can go all in.

Also, for me, every opportunity, you don't have to wait 5-10 years lah, when if hit you TP, you can move on and focus on searching for the next opportunity. Value investing can be flexible in timing.

Read the below from other blog yesterday, and I find it very match with my trading strategy:

"我无意中发现当我赚到钱的一个规律,要想赚到钱,“必须要敢重仓”。我一般是在底部看好一只股票基本上就重仓,如果不是,顺势加码持股也就逐步达到重仓了。这样,一拨行情下来赚个20%——40%很容易。
  但是,过去是见到大盘上涨明朗后才开始敢大买,而涨了点就卖,大盘继续涨,就在热点板块跳来蹦去频繁地买卖赚点差价操作忙个不休,或者手中分散持股几只,这样到最后一般是赚了指数不赚钱。
  应该是在底部区域看准机会,必须重仓,敢于重仓这是改变自己的收益的关键问题。这就是看对时要有赚大钱的豪情,看错时要有及时止损的果断。"

You really need to know how to win big in order to survive in the market, because you never know when the market is going to take it back from you big time. So for me, win big a few times, reserve those profits to make sure that you will be able to continue to survive in the market.

2015-05-06 10:13

iloveyou

Successful entrepreneur other than accumulate valuable asset in low price, most of the time they built valuable asset that generate income.
like sunway built pyramid, then built hospital, then built university making the land more valuable, selling houses in higher price. they are building value. They are not value investing, they are value creating.

2015-05-06 12:17

contemplator

INVESTMENT IS MOST SUCCESSFUL WHEN IT IS MOST BUSINESS LIKE-- BEN GRAHAM

2015-05-06 16:36

Kevin Wong

When one's capital is small, its worth the risk to put all your eggs in one or two basket. But once your capital isn't so small anymore...

2015-05-06 18:47

optimusprime

3 types of ppls

1. dont have to bet. (rich ppls)
2. cannot bet. (middle class)
3. Must bet. (poor ppls or limited fund ppls)

if u r (3) , welcome to bursa. its a betting paradise.

2015-05-06 23:21

sengkee

4. Naturally like to bet

2015-05-06 23:36

tkp1

5. Don't know how to bet (Optimouse)

2015-05-07 10:25

tkp1

Kevin, agree, have to consider the liquidity of that particular counter, don't all in in low liquidity counter when you can't run immediately if there is something wrong.

2015-05-07 10:27

Kevin Wong

Good luck tp1, and everybody else too!

2015-05-07 10:56

contemplator

apini: agree with you, discipline or temperament control perhaps is the most difficult part of investment.

2015-05-07 15:46

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