But stagnant of NAV as pointed out by Tiga i got people keep selling but it's all depend which side of trade you are now, those bought at 1.7 to 2 will be smiling.

TTB charged about 3.5 millions on fund management fees + another 3.5 million on investment advisory fees in 2022 - about 1.5%. Sorry guys can't agree this the cause of discounts to NAV.

This is where I differ with the rest that we should not be harping on cash he has converted from profits taking. There are times that it's okay to hold high cash, there are times that should reduce cash.....don't interfere with the fund manager strategy. Don't get jealous because of management fees and we should not be double standards. Have ever asked your mutual fund managers to reduce the fees when the funds that you buy losing money? If someone didn't really losing a lot of your money you ask for fees reduction and etc....It's a bit unfair. I understand the logic of share buy back but for control purpose, iCap will never do it.

Anyone who wants to buy now is only betting on rising NAV not to pray for discounts to narrow. Also pray our fund manager to book the profits to preserve NAV. :)

Because of the high cash he hold, he managed to pick up some bargains during Covid 19 period. One of his biggest winner is SEM.....now he is betting on Hibiscus and CapitalA. Let's see how it turn out to be.

Usually when NAV is shooting up, meaning also could be due to rising sentiments. Fund manager has option to take profit and covert to cash so that when market decline, it will suffer less. Actually TTB is hiding behind cash that is why when there are periods of rapid decline in the KLSE, he looks good relatively and it's not because of his share selections bullet proof.

@ Tiga i. The same table that you share, you put 1 more column on % cash on hand....there are periods our fund manager hold high level of cash.....but it was prercisely when the discount was growing that I started to buy regularly. :)

I believe COL will buy my idea too, it's too early to shut it down and divide the estate. What they are trying to do is to establish a clear majority right from the beginning so that they can call the shot when the time is ripe for harvesting.

In any event, if, I am saying, hypothetically I am having about 3-5% ownership in iCap, will I vote to close the fund, the answer is not at NAV of 3.53 with 25% discount NAV to Share Price. But sometime in the future, 20 years from now, NAV 11.32, share price 8.49, 25% discount NAV to share price, will I vote to close it down. The answer is probably yes, TTB will be 90 years old.....it's about time we harvest it. 😂😂

@Tiga i - whether payout as dividend caused pitiful return is debatable. In the first place, stripping off the dividend, holdings that they have is just simply underperforming. Don't forget that TTB is a die hard fan of China markets, if he overweight China markets don't expect it to perform. Also the currency of choice is AUD, in 2009, 1AUD = 2.5, this alone should give him some advantage in MYR term....bottomline....poor showing.

COL is good necessarily evil actually because either ways smallshare holders win. Liquidation of fund in sometime in the future for those still have positions will get back all the money that locked as "discounts". When COL keeps making noise, then the fund manager needs to optimize the returns. Check and balance will be there.

I am not all that concern with that 3% but just that more speed bumps mean they will try to discourange it from increasing the ownership.

Foreign ownership limit is not something new but it is usually more common if it is systemically important instituition such as banks or telecomunications.

https://www.bursamalaysia.com/market_information/announcements/company_announcement/announcement_details?ann_id=3389047
Based on the latest announcement, iCap is trying to clip COL wings by reviewing its rights and obligations attached to the shares based on LIFO method. They may not necessarily forced to sell the % above 20% otherwise iCap management may not necessarily go to the extend to design additional speed bumps.

Let comment on share buy back of which I think TTB will never agree to it. It's a simple math. Let's say TTB take 140 million cash and buy back at 2.64 at today's closing price, it will reduce outstanding shares about 53 million shares from 140 million to 87 million shares. If COL didn't sell a single of their holding of 32 million shares, they ownership will be in percentage wise increase from 23% to 37%.......if they buy a bit more will cross 51%.....then TTB will be checkmate!

*stop checking

There are tonnes of examples of this kind of scenarios in a bear market.....one of the examples is Chinese banking stocks with dividend yield > 8% in Hong Kong market. Despite of generous or progressive payout rate, when sentiments sours, there is nothing you can do about it. It's either get out or just stock checking stock price for a new years.

One positive light I can see, they give you options - if you have strong conviction, buy more iCap when yield becomes attractive 6-8%, or if you think there are better profitable investment ideas some where - take that dividend money and buy other profitable shares lo.

If the ex-dividend price does not move up or worse going down, the NAV discounts will remain in percentage wise....

No problem la --- returning 10 sen per share to share holder, or about 14 million/year, chicken feet la. Based on 31/5/2023, they still have about 140 million, they can afford to pay it out over 10 years....after payout the dividend, NAV will reduce also, so is ex-dividend share price will drop, but if it can climb back, it's a cheating way of narrowing discount.

When they know they need to pay out dividend, then they probably will do a bit more active investing.

Okay2...let me also sell some to buy musang king moon cake...😎😋

Looking at the price actions, people more motivated to sell, widen the discounts to get higher yield...<__> last traded price 2.65. also okay for me Cox of much lower entry price.😉

Key actually is still NAV growth... Most of discounts in CEF either is totally underperforming NAV(not growing or declining) or sectors totally out of favor in the US markets. It's a function of performance and crowd psychology.

My expectation is always whether they need to grow NAV at least match EPF 6%... hold on it long enough... Someday it may get liquidated to get back all the discount. Many years ago there was one CEF in bursa get liquidated after listed for about 10 years.

While waiting, can just reinvest the dividend into EPF as a barbell strategy.

My dua sen of opinion.

iCap historical NAV growth is about 8% using IPO as a base.
For the purpose of that illustration I shaved off 2% and use 20% discount as the base case for the sake of margin of safety. There will be some upside if we use 10% discount and 8% NAV CAGR....you can work it out yourself on CAGR. 😂😂

For some who are interested in learning about closed end funds you may visit this website
https://www.cefa.com/
You can a much more wider statistic of closed end funds performance ( discount/premium).....Average equity discount on much more efficient market is about 9.6%, 20% is quite rare but there are cases of as much as 40%.

I ran a very simply scenario
NAV growth = 6% per annum
Base NAV 3.6
Share price 2.72
Discount between NAV and Share Price 20% discount
Year/NAV/Share Price/Dividend
Year 1 3.81/3.05/.099
Year 2 4.04/3.23/.105
Year 3 4.29/3.43/0.111
Year 4 4.545/3.64/0.118
Year 5 4.813.854/0.125
Year 6 5.10/4.085/0.133
Year 7 5.413/4.33/0.141
Year 8 5.74/4.59/0.149
Year 9 6.08/4.86/0.158
Year 10 6.44/5.16/0.167

Total dividend received over 10 year $ 1.307 = 48% at 2.72 price entry
Capital gain = (5.16-2.72)/2.72 = 90%
Total Return = 138%
CAGR = 9%

Quite fair la

REITS may not give capital growth but if TTB is really good in growing NAV with regular dividend...it's not a bad idea idea after all. Need to give him a bit of credits

Based rate 1% of Simple 4 weeks of NAV + 8% x Discount Between NAV and Share Price.

If simple average of 4 weeks NAV = 3.6, Share Price = 2.72
Dividend = 1% * 3.6 + 8% * (3.6-2.72) = 0.1064.
Dividend Yield = 0.1064/2.72 = 3.91%

Not bad lah if it is tax free on the dividend. 🤣🤣

iCapital.biz finally announced the Innovative Dividend Policy 🤣🤣
https://www.bursamalaysia.com/market_information/announcements/company_announcement/announcement_details?ann_id=3388655

But ICAP still performing better than Public Mutual. Still need to feed agents and fund managers with performance can't even beat FD😪

Malu loh if can't even beat EPF. We all used to ridicule and hantam them kau kau😂😂

Rupa rupa many want to exit...LOL :)

Just do it as a past time activity. Some people do something trying to show their nobleness or kindness to others...I have neither. @^@

Just to make things clear ya.. I am not related to any of COL or iCapital people but just a normal Ah Fok on the street. Just interpreting the information from public available information. Just take all the comments with a grain of salts.

14-Sep-2023. COL bought 80,100. Total shares transacted for the day: 87,300. 92% of the transactions. Good signal, they are not afraid of TTB latest action. They think TTB is only barking not biting. ^__^

Current rising tide will lift all boats. ICAP got a few big holding such as Padini, Seremban Engineering, CapitalA, Hibiscus, Kelington, Suria Capital are on the rising trend....when these names hit all time high, estimated NAV will be around RM 4.20. At 20% discount will translate into Share price of RM 3.40, So iCapital trading buy of RM 3.50 is not a laughable target. Their second target of RM 5 is a bit far fetch. ^__^

Correction ha...4.2 million shares not 4,200 millions(ooops.....) Sorry

When COL start selling, other small guys will rush out from the door even faster and will create a death downward spiral.

Hope TTB will not get piss when reading these comments or drag me to court.

For anyone who follow YTL Corp, when the share price crashing down to 50 sen.....it was EPF that continued to sell down during the whole period the Covid 19....the price stopped declining when they stopped selling and of course with the financial turnaround recently, it just rocketed. A sharp eye like TTB surely will have something to learn. If they force COL to pare down stakes to less than 20% from current 23%, just a 3% pare down will be roughly 4,200 million shares....it will drive it down if they are forced to sell in a short time due to injunction or court orders(in case they won la)

Go....yeah... baby go ..... kimochi

TTB argued that the period where icap enjoyed a huge premiums in year 2007....at that point of time, all investors sure feel shiok due to bull market....but just like Warren Buffet said bull market was like sex, it feel the best just before it end. ^--^

@dumbMoney - agreed. I wish TTB to be fairer and not to get personal. It's small guys that keep selling while there are some institutional investors providing liquidity to prevent share price dropped irrationally. TTB argues that it's small holders that will provide stability and narrowing the share price. I don't quite agree to that. There are plenty of studies show that any stock market dominated by retail investors such as early days in the USA or China stock market, the price volatility are way much higher. When it goes up it will go up to euphoria stage and when it goes down, a dollar found on the street is being delusional justified as 0 value. ^--^

If TTB think we can run bad mouth campaign to shake off confidence is akin to the pen is mightier than the sword. thinking..then the richest man on earth should be a writer not an investor or speculator.....if we think we are bigger than the market, we just kidding ourselves. ^---^

@dumbMoney - +/- 3,000,000 shares at 30,000 shares per day - 100 trading days....Enough to shake the small timers
Today already people willing to let go at 2.59

@patient investor - if you have shares now, sell it and wait for RM 1

Re announcement posted by speakup....
It will just add uncertainty to the stock and widening the discount again....
Let's see how deep are the pockets of small investors to keep buying and try to narrowing the discount......if everyday only a couple of thousand shares changed hand it will take a long long time of moving sideway if we are lucky but if we are unlucky some emo small timers might just take whatever buyers price.....crashing down the stock. Then TTB will start buying again ? He and his fund have accumulated not small amount of shares ... already reaching 2.18% as of 1 Sept 2023....Is TTB actions driving down or COL talked down the share price? ^-^

I believe TTB original intention trying to setup a closed end as opposed to open end funds has a few reasons. The obvious advantage of closed end funds could prevent draw down during market downturn because there is a secondary market to allow those who want to exit or enter the market. In other words, TTB has the flexibility to raise cash at the market top and to deploy cash when stock market is crashing without worry about fund redemptions. This philosophy is also very similar to a fund manager that running Pheim funds tactically determine amount of cash to hold/invest. They tend to make concentrated bets on a few winners but there are also a numbers of losers in their portfolio. This kind of investing style will typically move side way and suddenly make a big move in NAV. Just for an example, when you buy in year 2011, it make side ways for a number of years, many will be very frustrated looking their investment fluctuating within a small band...the frustrated "shareowners" will tend to sell at a discount due to liquidity issue. When you have an illiquid stock, you just need to sell down a couple of hundred thousand shares to drive down share price a lot.

Secondly, he does not have an extensive marketing arm like Public Mutual to allow small investors to invest only a small portion of their funds. if you see his other open end funds, the minimum amount is huge USD 100 k for his Global fund, A$ 5k for his ICAPBF, A$ 20 k for international value fund and etc.....as for ICAP.BIZ you can buy a little as MYR 2k or lesser.

The downside, unfortunately you will get all kind of investor base(regardless of closed end or open end).....but only with 1 objective, make money. Call them long term, traders, speculators or suckers, etc......you will have all of them. This is something TTB has to accept. I doubt how many long term investors are there, if we traced the major shareholders from the annual reports, a lot them with big positions come and go. You just compare the top 30 largest investors in 2006, 2016 and 2022....you will see how shares has changed hands within that span of time(I just picked 10 years interval to see how many of them can hold that long)...you check it out yourself. Those with large positions most likely contributed to the discount when they decided to exit.

Share price is determined by supply and demand, if most of the "shareowners" are short term oriented, you will see supply greater than demand. If you really have long term "shareowners", no one sells, when demand is greater than supply, there is only one way somebody needs to pay more either at NAV or even at a premium. It's pure market mechanism 101. Good luck in attracting the like minds.......in stock market.....it's animal spirit and not religion beliefs that rule.

After price hit $2.94, there were very strong profits taking with 4 days down from 22/8 till 25/8. Loss of almost 8% within 4 days, huh huh :(....thought it will continue to crash down but nice price action support by COL on 28/8....bought almost every sell orders for that day. COL looks like determine to buy more and more. Price target 3.5 will be realized sooner than most think. Vote with your wallet and not with your mouth...another way of saying put your money where your mouth is...heh...heh? :)

COL crossing 30% ownership will give them an opportunity for a concert party...Their current ownership is about 22% -- they need to buy at least another 8-11% to reach 30-33% or 11 -15 million more shares. If they chase the price all the way to RM 3.5-3.60, iCap discounts will be narrowed or disappeared. Not many of TTB die hard fans will be induced to sell if they make a mandatory offer without any premiums to the NAV.

If COL have been accumulating share price at lower level of first 22% and next 11% at RM 3.5(assumption), they average buying price will be around MYR 2.83. They will sit on around 24% profit to make a mandatory offer at 3.5. It's not a great return after so many years of hardworks.

The most likely scenario is to let iCAP to continue to grow the assets while putting pressure on him to narrow the discounts between NAV and iCAP price. They won't kick out TTB based on 1 simple logic: why kill the golden goose?

TTB on the other hand is quite shrewd, through his newsletter, he has been guiding his subscribers for the first target iCAP price of 3.5 and second target of 4.7. He is playing a psychological warfare with COL....hoping the existing shareholders hold on to their shares or attract others to bid up the price quickly to make it much more expensive for COL to acquire next 8-11% block of shares in the open market.

Buy some chips and Cokes......Sit back and relax and enjoy the show: COL vs TTB.