dumbMoney pointed out in various cases in Singapore and Msia of CEF liquidation was initiated by the major controlling stakeholders. In those cases the major controlling parties were the banks or managers that running the fund themselves. Patient Investor also pointed out cases of aggressive hedge fund activists were closing down the CEFs.

The timing of Patient Investor re-appearance is quite interesting also. I thought he said it's dumbMoney one man ranting here....he will only come back to check on us in next AGM.....but it's coincides after the first hearing of 20% foreign limit SICDA tinge.....bad sign of iCAP losing the case....now expressing the worries COL will continue to buy towards 33% or even more 50% or 75%????

@SSLee, buy 1 share and attend iCAP AGM to help us witnessing the environment whether COL is as hostile as alleged....😂😂

I think it is better that I clarified on my previous post

>>>>>>
FastMoney666

Why don't sell? In a bull market ma, sell iCap put money in Insas and JTiasa also okay ma....why dumb dumb sitting on dead money?

8 hours ago
>>>>>>>

This was a cheeky post while there are "truths" these counters undervalued somewhat but it is also subjected to sentiments - if people like it, they will keep chasing especially even the Edge Tong's portfolio sold Maybank position and switched to Insas -WC at 0.42. This is an aggressive move and performed by a very advanced player.

When they think the affair it's over, price can come down rapidly. This what I am referring advanced player as the person is also able to control their emotion extreme well and very well discipline when it's time to exit.

My only point is people do have a choice.....when they exit they do have a lot of other reasons. Either they see undervalued propositions in other counters or simply need cash.....or may be they see limited upside in the near term iCap.

Why don't sell? In a bull market ma, sell iCap put money in Insas and JTiasa also okay ma....why dumb dumb sitting on dead money?

So I won't be so stugid to shoot myself in the foot by bad mouthing iCAP. I wish iCap doing well but really cannot tahan TTB only. 😂😂

The only period was truly unusual was when iCap was selling at 40% discounts.....cash/share was nearly $ 2 when iCap was selling at market price between 1.7++ - 2.2.....that was the period attracted my return to own 1 share but now have sold out some, left with only 0.5 share 😂😂

21% -24% discount still.....as expected when people pricing in 4% dividend(1% base + another 3% from discount between NAV and market price).

New investor needs to know their return expectations should be from market price to market price and should not be from market price to NAV.

Even REITs, majority of them are selling at a discount with exceptions on a few like IGB Reit....even one of best located REITs like KLCC is only trading at book value.

All these are not good to attract new retail investors as you said. TTB don't need to put down on others to elevate himself to attract new retail investors.

It's quite sad also to see TTB is dragging other alma mater into the fight.....when you go out and fight you won't dragging other people's family into the fight, don't we?

*not good

@Patient Investor though you questions were directed to dumbMoney....my view is this......cease fire. When TTB keep publishing his newsletter calling other as running dogs, wreckers..surely people will need to reply to that. During these exchanges you already know it's good for iCap reputation especially we rebutted with many credible points.

@dumbMoney....too bad when you speak up on COL has been taken by TTB personally. Even I speak up because when things are not right.

*forgot it's 2024 ady.....this year was referring to year 2023

@dumbMoney -- this is also why TTB thinks you are dangerous. He care less people like me or others, we can bark but can't bite. He worries you might bite him, that's why lo, merely just by your presence, he shrivels.....and pointing the gun at you. He will intimidate, discredit, associate you with gweilo, etc.......poor dumbMoney but I think he messes with a wrong guy. You have left him alone even silent up to AGM this year yet....he still won't reciprocate and won't leave you in peace. 😂😂

Of all the B schools in the world, why TTB said no need to go to University of Chicago, just come to work in CDAM... Better than the best 😂😂

@Patient Investor....first, from the way you reply and participate, I am comforted you are not someone from iCap. We will then can have meaningful discussions.

COL like dumbMoney said kena shark bait.....

They just get caught between a hard place and a rock.......with such a big position - 4 possible strategies of COL exit

1. Buying nearer to NAV(3.6) then exit -- this strategy will be tough because the moment the market participants see they exit, all will rush out at the same time, price will fall....back to square one.

2. Continue to buy and hold patiently while NAV to grow.......say to 10, even exit at 8, based on the entry price they have, they will still make a decent profit

3. Buy till 33%, trigger the MGO but then with a large base of loyal fans of TTB, not many will accept. So COL will get stuck.

4. COL to buy till >75% then we can talk about removing TTB or fund liquidation.

In my mind, we can let COL do whatever they want to do and there is no need for TTB to demonising COL. That's all I was trying to say. COL makes or losses money doesn't concern me.

Ya. if Jaya Tiasa can benchmark other counters that with payout ratio > 90% there will be high possibility of valuation expansion to re-rating to 10X.

United Plantation
PE 11.5, DY 9.2%, Payout ratio 106%

Ta Ann
PE 10, DY 9.6%, Payout ratio 94%


KMLoong
PE 13, DY 7.6%, Payout ratio = 106%

Jaya Tiasa
PE = 6, DY 3%, Payout ratio 17%

If payout ratio can be raised to 90%, Dividend/share = 0.16, Assume DY 10% --> share price = 1.6 but if this trigger re-rating to 10X your call of surpassing 2.7 is not impossible.

Patience is needed though as works need to be done by the management to raise the dividend payout ratio.

May not be a disaster but certainly I have my doubt on his claim of LOW RISK, High Return.

Another stock, Parkson at one time has about RM 50 million in iCap portfolio but he saw it dwindled to decline to a level of permanent capital loss.

Back to Capital A tinge, iCap invested at cost of RM 32 million and estimated value as of last Friday RM 28 million, a paper loess of 4 million. Assuming it burnt down to zero, impact on NAV is $ 0.228, potential impact is 6% to NAV.

@SSLee very honest of you telling everyone that you have taken profits on Insas....May be still got momentum to go if Inari continue to lari....all the best on the remaining shares.

Ytl was stuck in 10 years bear market...when the sellers were finally exhausted, from a flip 10 year low to 10 year high and run like a mad bull but supported by fundamentals 😂😂

TTB made investment in Airasia on behalf of iCap in 2008 and sold it in 2009 with a small profit and somehow this love for Airasia seems to be re-ignited again during Covid...both transacted during crisis but this time round when taxis grounded while rental is running is very much different.

@SSLee...haha..buy Insas better😁

I bet TTB will be smiling stu____gid gwailo......let them buy...when the price steady.....TTB will came out and claim due to his excellent fund management......iCAP remains in 1 piece. He will again claim he is the hero of small timer investors

During the recent selected counters melt down......iCAP small shareholders panic and dumped as low as 2.75....if it was not COL stepped in to buy on that day of 16 Jan 2024.....iCAP price would have crashed instead of you see a hanging man....they bought 174,900 shares. Where is TTB during that time?

The reason I put up the huge price run up was to proof a point: TTB always claims COL crashed the price by bad mouthing iCAP to buy more...

But if you look at the price action.....again and again....whenever they bought.....the price went up

@Patient Investor, the chart was posted by me la😂😂 Obviously dumbMoney is the only 1 guy you go after.

You know why I it starting from May '23? It's 3 months before a key event of the injunction was lifted(Aug '23). TTB committing something very selfish with only 1 objective that is to kill COL. He put iCap shareholder at risk by an under taking to compensate COL for the missed opportunity to buy at lower price to get an injunction to prevent COL to buy further while the court case was on-going. Do you want me to update the chart? It will look even worse on TTB if I go back another 2 years + the discount to NAV.....

O ya....I forgot tomorrow is the court case. By right they should not discuss such matter publicly like dumbMoney said especially this was published in the iCap newsletter.

>>>>>>
What shareowners should notice and acknowledge is the fact that the discount of your Fund's share price has narrowed very substantially from a high of around 40% to only about 20% recently. This did not happen by accident. It is the result of the hard work and heart work put in by Capital Dynamics and myself as the Designated Person of icapital. biz Berhad.
>>>>>

Well said Mr. Fund Manager. The discounts were narrowing, it was not by accident. Surely not by accident but got a lot of helping hands from COL by simply studying the data. It’s sickening to see the fund manager keep on claiming credits. Lembu punya susu, sapi punya nama.

Please take a look at these 3 charts in this link

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/wwb8hiq1m8x8qp96jm0c8/COL_Price_Vol.pdf?rlkey=o572yp64awjtu6tsjhjdevh7i&dl=0

Chart 1- between May 2023 till Dec 2023, there were 17 trading days with iCap’s share price shot up more than 5 sen in 1 day….that translate as strong as 3 - 8% surged especially when COL was buying after the injunction was lifted. These large price movements created a lot of breakouts. Of these 17 trading days COL buying contributed 41% of it, CDAM was buying a little here and there but only contributed to 24% - small pistol no bazooka compared to COL. Even other shareholders did a better job which contributed to 34% of these large price movements.

Chart 2 – you can see price change intensity….many of these more than lima sen price surged happened when COL was buying. When iCap started to harass the foreign investors with SICDA between mid Sept to end October, you hardly see large upward price movements.

Chart 3 – It’s even clear when you connect the dots of the price, volume, and events.

Prior to 2/8/2023 when the Fund Manager brought the lawsuit against COL and the same time trying to buy on cheap, the share price was hardly moved and discounts were getting worst from 20% to almost 40%. Pretty sure a lot of Viagra and Steroid being pump, just x naik…At the same time, the fund manager was mobilizing full propaganda against Brutus and penjajah conspiracy theory.

Here is turning point. After the Federal court thrown out iCAP appeal, the buying injunction was lifted for COL. Mama mia, iCap share price just shot up like rocket. Everybody cheers….looking forward to break $3 but he just spoilt the party. With the infinite wisdoms of the fund manager, he harassed foreign investors with SICDA. People got sick of him. One of them, Pop Investments, got an injunction from the court to stop SICDA hoax thing. With that injunction in place, COL resumed buying sikit sikit but each time they bought, it was able to create impact.

Look for the black bar in the volume.

I am really feeling sorry for COL. They had done good to help everybody to narrow the discounts between NAV and share price with a little bazooka but it was treated as enemy no 1 and painted them as a villain that will put sand in everyone’s rice bowls. What is worst, the fund manager keep running campaign to discredit them and keep on “blow cow”(read in Cantonese or Mandarin), let them do the discounts narrowing jobs while he kept attacking them. I think there is a limit to everything, including stxxpidity!

Putting all the emotions aside....since we are in 52WK high fever season, what will be iCAP NAV looks like if all its holdings hit 52 week high? Based on the price on 5/1 and holdings extracted from the Annual Report---> it's NAV is quite close to last week reported NAV 3.61. Given it's low portfolio turnover, we can safely deduced the NAV when all it's holdings hit 52 WK high(estimate = 4.18/share, applying 20% discount, projected share price will be 3.34)

Stock****************************************** Shares*** 5/1/2024 Price*** FValue 5/1/2024*** Price When hit 52 WK H****** Fair Value-52 WK H
'000
21 SAM Engineering & Equipment (M) Berhad *** 18,154*** 4.05*** 73,525*** 5.28*** 95,855
11 Kelington Group Berhad - Ordinary shares*** 28,383** 2.17*** 61,592*** 2.17*** 61,592
18 Padini Holdings Berhad********************** 17,007 *** 3.60*** 61,224*** 4.18*** 71,088
5 Capital A Berhad - Ordinary shares*********** 29,282*** 0.83 *** 24,304*** 1.12*** 32,796
22 Suria Capital Holdings Berhad*************** 11,894*** 1.92*** 22,837*** 2.00*** 23,789
1 Apex Healthcare Berhad********************** 3,749*** 2.60*** 14,620*** 2.63*** 9,859
2 APM Automotive Holdings Berhad*********** 4,698*** 2.91*** 13,671*** 2.98*** 13,999
24 United Plantations Berhad****************** 741*** 18.42*** 13,646*** 18.42*** 13,646
9 Hibiscus Petroleum Berhad****************** 12,430*** 2.53*** 12,579*** 2.98*** 37,042
13 Kronologi Asia Berhad 31,112 0.40 12,445 0.63 19,601
6 Capital A Berhad -
Redeemable Convertible Unsecured Islamic Debt Securities****** 9,761*** 0.85*** 8,297*** 1.09*** 10,639
12 Kelington Group Berhad - Warrants*********************** 9,461*** 0.83*** 7,805*** 0.52*** 4,872
19 Parkson Holdings Berhad********************************* 22,942*** 0.29*** 6,539*** 0.38*** 8,603
3 Bioalpha Holdings Berhad - Ordinary shares************** 49,058*** 0.11*** 5,151*** 0.13*** 6,377
23 Tong Herr Resources Berhad******************************* 1,888*** 2.37*** 4,475*** 3.25*** 6,136
15 MKH Berhad*********************************************** 2,951*** 1.45*** 4,280*** 1.49*** 4,398
17 OCK Group Berhad**************************************** 5,910*** 0.46*** 2,719*** 0.47*** 2,778
14 Luxchem Corporation Berhad***************************** 5,007*** 0.54*** 2,704*** 0.58*** 2,879
7 Capital A Berhad - Warrants******************************** 4,880*** 0.38*** 1,855*** 0.52*** 2,513
20 Salutica Berhad******************************************* 1,700** 0.81** 1,377*** 1.73*** 2,941
25 Wellcall Holdings Berhad********************************* 1,614*** 0.67*** 1,081*** 1.78*** 2,872
16 Oceancash Pacific Berhad******************************** 3,145*** 0.33*** 1,035*** 0.41*** 1,274
10 HPMT Holdings Berhad********************************** 1,803*** 0.36*** 649*** 0.45*** 802
4 Bioalpha Holdings Berhad - Irredeemable Convertible Preference Shares*** 7,665*** 0.02*** 115*** 0.06*** 422
8 EUPE Corporation Berhad**************************************** 100*** 0.88*** 88*** 0.92*** 92
****************************************TTL Shares*** 285,336*****FV 5/1/2024 358,611 *****FV 52WK H 436,866

Cash 145,722(5/1/2024) 145,722(52WK High)
Others 2,081(5/1/2024) 2,081 (52W High)
NAV 506,413(5/1/2024) 584,669 (52W High)

NAV/Share 3.617(5/1/2024) 4.18 (52 WK High)

Share price (apply 20% discount) 3.34

0 seconds ago

Haha...can buy only need to be assured that whatever they buy in excess of 20% got same right like everyone else including voting right. So they are waiting for a final ruling from the court

I hope this was zhangwin had in mind. 😂😂

Fund manager will be caught naked... No such clause in the constitution of 20% foreign limit. In last August, when the court thrown out the fund manager lawsuit, gwailo resumed buying just a few days, it had massive breakout

So you bet gwailo can buy more? 😂😂😁

BTW, if we don't know how to evaluate iCAP, look into the technical chart. iCap newsletter says it has successfully brought through of its triangle consolidation pattern. The new target price is RM 3.6, represent 28% upside from here....wonder what will be the catalyst?

Unbelievable.....use so many tricks to talk up the share price.....waiting for John to post now

Haha....so smart people value investors got stuck with discounts together. Not so smart value investors will soar like dragon and phoenix , without having to worry about discounts or being accused as Brutus plotting to shut the fund😅😂😏

Just wondering why no iCap sucker. Pay premium la, not discount. Hopefully, Ini kali lah. Pay TTB premium.

Dunno which one will be another Hong Seng. From RM .03 to 2.5, 8,322% gains, then crashed down to .03 again, 99% gone. If you try to issue warning when share price gone up from 0.03 to 0.5, people will think you are sour grape. If you issue warning again at 1, people think you must be red eyes. If you tried again to issue warning again at 2, people think you study so high, know nothing about share investment, keep your bloody mouth shut 😅

Haha...I just saw 1 very interesting name Xidelang Holdings, YTD gain 40%....This is a Chinese Shoe maker...I thought this SOB already died and berried in level 18 hell and for no reason it was resurrected....😅

Well, Uncle Lim is crying...😭😭....Genting business was very badly hit cox all the customers gone to Bursa Malaysia

This week the Edge Weekly highlighted many counters with high turnover with loss making but generated impressive return just within 1 week....I just published top 10 with the price changed added by me comparing last trading day of 2023...29 Dec and last closing yesterday 5 Jan 2024.

Counter- Price 29-Dec-- 5-Jan-- % gain--- Share turnover %---YTD Average daily vol(mil)---PE
MMAG-- 0.095--- 0.14 --47%----26%---- 63.70--- Loss making
Fast Energy Holdings--- 0.13---0.145---12%--23%---49.50--Loss making
Green Ocean Corp---0.225--- 0.235---- 4%--20%---36.80-- Loss making
Ho Wah Genting----0.24---0.27---- 13%---17%--- 7.00--Loss making
Sarawak Cable---0.375---0.425---- 13%---16%---61.60--- Loss making
Edaran---- 0.87----1.36---- 56%---14%----8.10----- 24.5
Pasukkas Group---- 0.155---- 0.175---13%---16%--- 25.50---- Loss making
Asdison---0.105----0.125---- 19%----13%---55.90--- Loss making
Minetech Resources---- 0.145--- 0.215--- 48%---12%--- 172.90--- Loss making
DGB Asia---0.155---0.15----3%----10%---172.90----Loss making

Simple average return is 22%/week beating WB and the fund manager flat.

Chinese New Year rally is ON!

Some many fireworks .... still doing 2024 count down? 😂😂

Everytime you air different opinions, he Macai will invite you to his den in AGM or EGM.....

There was 60% of 140 mln voting right casted yesterday. 51 mln for, 33 mln against, he got 18 mln more votes.

Forget it la....the fund manager will not listen one la...he got strong followers will back him all the time. Just like AGM or EGM....yesterday voting results on DRIP, he won hands down

These are great questions. They are trying -- not sure will succeed or not -- monetized AA brand. It will be 1 time massive gain about RM 5 bln in P&L if they succeed. Malaysia apa pun bolih?

CapA has been operating on taxi renting model😂😂 but during Covid, they rented but parked at home while the rental was still running. They wanted to renegotiated for debt forgiveness 🙈 - if I die you die. They also suffered a lot of high costs when they restarted these grounded taxis.

About 2 weeks ago, the fund manager published CapA company analysis in his newsletter. One of them " 9M2023 cash generation however remains robust, with 9M2023 operating cash flow at more than RM 1.7 bln."

CapA is for sure is a gamble not a case for value investing. Cap A fundamentals has changed drastically, for those anchored on previous price high, it is not the fundamental that will back it up to the previous highs but it is the sentiment that will drive it up. The shareholders will risk massive dilutions when they fund it with equity.

Just a quick comment on the current liabilities on MYR 15 bln - of that 5 bln related to lease liabilities and 2 bln sales in advance(customer is lending to Cap A for free 😂😂) and another 1.7 billion on aircraft maintenance...in the worse case they still Tai Chi and nego for re-payment again.....But the trade and other payables 4.2 bln certainly needs to be paid else all his suppliers will stop delivery. Nett of receivables of 1 bln + 0.5 bln cash, memang x cukup. Certainly they will need to raise cash la.....first target I think 5 bln kot via SPA. Target by April 2024 per iCap newsletter analysis.

Below EBITDA - yes still have to pay for finance costs on the lese liabilities and borrowing -- so nett cash increase will not be a lot. No matter how we sliced and diced it, the best case is no bleeding but certainly need to raise more cash to meet the operating cash flow.

Full disclosure: I have neither long nor short on Cap A for now and for the future. These posts merely to point out what the fund manager had invested on behalf of the shareholders. Can win big by gambling but also can lose big when putting the chips on the wrong side.

Recently Capital A requested for extension from 31/12/2023 to 30/6/2023 to submit its regularisation plan.....The fund manager always claims about low risk, high return.....I beg to differ on this one....he committed almost 7% of fund in Capital A. It is certainly a high risk, high return bet it can exit PN 17. It's a bet on sentiment turnaround with a big gap up!

Stock: [ICAP]: ICAPITAL.BIZ BHD

1 month ago | Report Abuse

For iCAP die hard fan....in the future, you monitor yourself on what your fund manager have bought for you the combo meals on CAPA
Counter ************************************************ Qty********Cost*****Cost per share*****Price 31/10/2023*** Fair Value
Capital A Berhad - Ordinary shares******CAPITAL-A****29,282,200**24,811,409** 0.85***0.84*** 24,597,048
Capital A Berhad - Redeemable Convertible Unsecured Islamic Debt Securities
******************************************CAPITALA-LA**9,760,733**7,320,550*** 0.75*** 0.87*** 8,491,838
Capital A Berhad - Warrants**
*****************************************CAPITALA-WA***4,880,366*****0**********0******0.375*** 1,830,137
Total cost 32,131,959 Fair Value 34,919,023
Gain 2,787,064
Gain % 8.7%

Chap sang!

--------------------------

Capital A has many issues but the crux of the issue is it has negative equity. In a situation of negative equity, a company certainly cannot declare dividend and even raise concern of going concern. Hence they need to fix this first.

How big is this hole? It's about RM $ 17.3 billion, as of 30/9/2023, Capital A is still making losses about 468 million...if it keep making losses, this hole will get bigger.

However, on EBITDA basis, it made close to about $ 400 million ++/quarter or about 1.7 billion/year. This may still be able to keep them afloat but the PN17 overhang will be there.

Capital A proposed to raise about USD 1 billion + cash via SPA of a company listed in Nasdaq GMFI. They will form CAPI and combine with GMFI. CAPI will acquire 100% equity interest in Air Asia and has the right to collect royalty and responsible for the brand management. Also 100% equity interest in Fleet Consolidated Pte Ltd for the procurement and delivery of planned fleet.

They also considering equity raising exercise Philippines AirAsia and Indonesia AirAsia....

In a similar situation with AirAsia X, they had almost RM 35 billion accumulated losses and a big bulk of it was due to provision of termination claim. They did a few things. They have successfully renegotiated with creditors and at same time raised some funds. AirAsia X subsequently were profitable since Q3/2022. They undergone the capital reduction exercise. All these were the catalyst of them successful exited PN 17 and share price jumped almost 300%++ from 0.70 to as high as 2.4.

Some people wanting to bet the similar thing from 0.8++ to RM 2++, 300% profit. The key word is BET -- gamble that EBITDA will carry them through with the sufficient cash flow and be able to raise enough equity or debt, capital reduction exercise to wipe out the accumulated losses to be lifted from PN17.

NAV increases ---> All wins.

Cash dividend --> Reduces NAV, Fund Manager Losses.

Minority shareholders that don't have voting rights concern, no need to worry about dilutions for not participating in DRIP.

You control your destiny when you have cash in hand - buy more iCap when the price is lower(assuming you are still his fan-se) or invest in other shares.

Systematic way of cashing out iCAP, assuming the fund manager can grow NAV over a long if you have been thinking exiting but got stuck.

DRIP --> NAV stays the same, Fund Manager charge as % to NAV wins.

Shareholders that love the fund manager think they may continue to stay invested on dollar averaging basis.

Let the fund manager retained the cash and compound it, assuming he still has the Midas touch.

If you a big enough shareholder, gain more control over time at the expense of those do not participate in DRIP.

Tomorrow is the voting time - For or Against - DRIP. The outcome is pretty predictable - with still many old faithful, you will expect DRIP to be approved. It's a non-event.

Merry Christmas.....

Ranting here also can train our brains by sparing with the fund manager with the constant "supervision". 😎

I am kind of confused what is iCap....started with marketing of 15% CAGR return fund, then 10%, then the most innovative dividend fund and now izzit is also an ESG fund?

Peace on earth.......I shall show restraint.

Additional information: Timing - they expect to implement this by Q1 '24.

This exercise will cost shareholders RM 0.8 million - approximately 0.2% to NAV RM 3.50/share.

Para 4.4 "Save for the estimated expenses of approximately RM0.8 million to be incurred in relation to
the Proposed DRP". All these are for legal, paperwork, Aussie Prof consulting fees? Perhaps there are more coming? Don't know -🤷- better to be transparent and don't surprise shareholders or buried it under a small footnote in the future.

The language is again confusing and not direct. If you expect to incur 0.80 m, say it. Or it is an accrual instead of saying "save for" if the whole exercise is eventually not to be implemented due to various reasons.

All these are for informational purpose and certainly do not want to be blamed for opposing to the program.....as long as they return part of the cash to shareholders instead of get locked in the discounts between share price and NAV, it is a welcome initiative.

They did cause a lot of confusion with their language and did not provide price & volume when they keep mentioning about Volume wrighted average market price. However based on the illustration of fixing price 2.5819 in para 4.1, illustrative dividend of 0.096, non drip holder with 10,000 shares will get 960 cash, drip holder will get 372 shares(960/2.5819), exdividend price will be 2.604. drip holder will worth 27,009.

None Drip holder will also have 27,000=10,000*2.604+960 cash dividend.

It appears that is no discount based on the illustration though discount were mention.

Anyhow perhaps still can sign up drip and see what happens. After all we can always sell those shares but some brokerage fees will be involved. Or may be clarify in EGM.