☝for the benefits of others who want to know more as you often heard about this M&M theorem. It's one of the finance backbone we use it so often and taken it for granted.

More technical explanations on M&M theory can be found at Investopedia:

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/modigliani-millertheorem.asp#:~:text=The%20Modigliani%2DMiller%20theorem%20(M%26M)%20states%20that%20the%20market,independent%20of%20its%20capital%20structure.

@dumbMoney - Prof Miller as I looked up for his M&M theorem and try to understand it & say it in my own words will be something like this, first bring in the bacon...if you got plenty of bacons(earnings, 15% CAGR NAV, etc) you don't have to worry about how to slice and dice it(aka why worry about dividend, need cash sell some bacons), the market will be smart enough to recognize the size your bacons you brought in by giving you due valuation. The trouble is the FM stopped bringing in bacons since 2014, so smart Alecs would start to sell their holdings and keep it in FD earning interest minus the management fees, that how gotten such a deep irrational discounts as much as 40%. Instead of accepting this normal people conventional wisdom, FM blame gweilo and dogs and wreckers. people are not dummy okay...that's how normal people apply EMT.

When he feels that his ka ka jiao jiao is justified in the name of protecting the 400 retail investors, other people (minus the invisible dogs) too justified that their ka ka jiao jioa in the names of 2,700 of other silent retail investors. The result is dy/dx > ZERO.

IMHO, the "only" issue should be solved using Newton's third law.

Basically postulates that when two bodies interact, they apply forces to one another that are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction.

The there is a ka ka jiao jiao(action), surely there is ka ka jiao jiao(reaction) with same magnitude of force.

😂😂
Was not aware of dogs in the AGM... Another imaginary enemies? . If he hates COL and Pop, put some poops in their mouth and face. Why suddenly dragged dogs running in the auditorium? I thought was a peaceful AGM and only issue that felt it outside the auditorium somebody hide the legal costs of 800 k without any explanation?

Prof Fama said when they studied the fund management as a population, it can't beat market over a long period of time after management fees and other costs. Some lucky managers can but will be at the expense of other active managers -- question will be, for how long?

If the fund manager want to lan si, then compare to another fund manager

Eastspring Investments Small-cap Fund

It was established in year 2001 about 4 years earlier than iCAP, generating return of 1064.63%, CAGR of 11.5% over 22 years. They went through all of kind of big or small bear markets and similar lau sai KLSE market also.

Do people so lan si, trumpeting they are better than the best?

Also all other all other basis of M & A to pay a company by discounting it at a proper discount rate on its ability to generate future cash flow/earnings + terminal value must be also throw into a black hole.

Haha! Then all the finance students should tear their textbooks....all other foundations such as CAPM, Markowitz portfolio theory and Black-Scholes pricing option model must be deviant teachings also. All must go back to cave and do a barter system. ☹

Have a listen to Prof Fama on value investing, expected return and risk premia @ min 12:30

https://youtu.be/uIYzNxaMaX8

Also his view on AI and investing @ min 21:35

I am really puzzled by iCAP advertising on low risk, high return.

Let's not talk about low risk first, just talk about high return. Is 4.5% share price CAGR high return???? 1 year, 2 year okay la but we are talking about 17 years!

Any lawyer around here? Can we stop iCAP to continue to advertise low risk, high return? They cannot keep saying not happy don't buy la.

"The Consumer Protection Act 1999 makes false and misleading advertising a criminal offence."

https://www.eraconsumer.org/eraconsumer/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=234:misleading-advertising&catid=80:consumer-law&Itemid=106#:~:text=The%20Consumer%20Protection%20Act%201999,purchase%20of%20goods%20and%20services.

Based on the historical back testing data by @dumbMoney......The fund manager will need his magic hands to do 30% CAGR at least 3 years in a row to convince he still has the Midas touch....PAR

Evan at 25% CAGR, people will give him markah kesian with 10% discounts.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Plotted together, there is a very strong correlation coefficient between NAV CAGR and price discount, at R square = 0.86, meaning that up to 86% of the price discount variation can be accounted for by the CAGR, i.e. the declining price discount can be directly traced back to the declining CAGR performance of the fund. Mystery solved.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Peter Lynch's investing technique😂😂

🙈🙉🙊

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
free thing no good.
Laura Ashley went into Administration
and sold off almost free 🤣 to US based bankruptcy specialist firm.

////////////
Investors basically got free Laura Ashley with the price they paid.
///////////

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Smart man✌

@sslee, respect your reasonings.

Yup....anything possible.

What is your view on BJ Corp?

@dumbMoney, I won't poke you with a pen, I will hug you when I see you at the hall way🤗

@ Observatory, thanks for the appreciation. Don't be just a silent reader, please feel free to chip in to geh poh a bit....make the chat room more lively a bit😂😂

Unlocking value from conglomerate sometimes sounds very lucrative, in reality a long, lonely journey. Either strike gold or go home empty handed.

iCAP fund manager advocated a similar thesis called Malayan United Industries. (MUI - stock code 3891)in 2008. MUI was actively raising cash by disposing Corus hotels, turning around Metrojaya department store and also owned 34% in Laura Ashley.

At that point of time, iCapital.biz publishers and its associates also owned the shares. The price when they wrote that piece was $M0.25/share. Last checked $0.06/share, - 76% over a period of 15 years.

They wrote that the market was grossly misrepresent the potential of MUI turnaround. As at 31 December 2007, MUI has RM 830 mln long term borrowings and RM 778 ml worth of cash and cash equivalents.

MUI also has properties worth RM 1.12 bln, mainly carried at net book value. Out of this RM 1.12 bln, RM 781 mln represents the value of the hotels in the UK, carried at 2001’s cost, and RM 118 mln represents the value of the group’s hotels in Malaysia and Australia.

They also have 1,100 acres of underdeveloped land in Bandar Springhill(around RM 100 mln @ 1995’s value), Menanra PMI(RM 30.8 mln), and other lands and buildings. The group’s crown jewel, the Corus Hyde Park Hotel, alone worth close to RM 600 mln at the current value.

All these they argued provided investors with a margin of safety.

Investors basically got free Laura Ashley with the price they paid.

I have not checked the details of the fundamental after 15 years, surely they still have billions of assets. Is the market still insanely punishing MUI?

Just for reference.......

😆You know, I know lah. Cheers 🍻

>>>>>
TBB will hold capA before covid 19 and will still dumb dumb hold capA till suspension and delist. There is no value investing from TBB. He is just a thick skin trying to hold on the icap management and earned his undeserved management fees.
>>>>>

Nobody even talked about closing his fund down but only talking about probability on theoretical realizable of NAV with 75% approval with special resolutions. People only talked about ordinary resolutions like normal appointment of BODs already created the hallucinations of Brutus conspiracy.

Insas could be well legitimate business with many assets and cash rich, that is the reason why I thanked @dumbMoney for his simple explanation that corrected my perception. The issue is unlocking assets on his own will be difficult. It's his lifelong handwork. He will fight till last drop of his blood for those want to dismantle his business. If you read further, he wants his next generation to continue to guard his business.

You can see how iCAP of which is such a tiny small fund will go all out to names calling, calling people learning nothing good from #1 MBA school in the world and writing rubbish here.

I respect you reasonings.

@dumbMoney... Thanks, else I could have committed a manslaughter with my pen. 🙏

Sorry, I think I really have cakap banyak. 🙏🙏🙏

A good company always talk you in English that your grandmother understand. This is a rule of thumb. Anything above that, leave it to hedge fund managers that specialized in special situation where they have enough money and legal fire power.

Market hates uncertainty or things they don't understand. A sudden rise, could be pump and dump.

Too many complicated footnotes.. Some belong to clients and what not... Really sorry.. All the best to those have big balls to raid the company... Not for me. I only skimmed through the AR like 15 mins, gut feel is just keep telling me it's too good to be true. Or may be owner may be really screwed the company so badly wanted to take it privately at the expense of minority shareholders. In doubt,my first reaction, RUN.😂😂

Who is this Dato's Sri Thong?

Another WB wannabe?

I lost count on # of subsidiaries that even auditors making disclaimers some of them are not audited by them.

Speaking of the cash, why the interests received is so low, sitting on 1 billion cash?

Some many be attracted by some ownership in Inari but on balance it could be a honey trap. Sorry, the company is too big for a small brain like mine to analyze further.

Paiseh...no further comments.

Mah lei! I thought iCAP will leave us in peace and let us talk rubbish...still monitoring us???

after all, we got only 1 share, in no way can threatened them. WTF with JohnD0ugh coming back with low risk, high return garbage again!

For those just came back from iCAP pilgrimage trip, I have a simple challenge for those believe in low risk high return,

Put $1,000,000 in iCAP at buying price of $4.20/share(20% premium on last NAV), see happen to this low risk, high return.

😤

Correction: .....Consolation is we were NOT dragged into the Brutus conspiracy to topple Ceasar.

Good that now they know we rant because we want to point out things that are not right and not to be benefited personally from all the postings.

Good that Patient Investor left lagak lan si lan yeong.

All he cares is to keep Ceasar in power for another year, pending court case on foreign limit thingy. Consolation is we were dragged into the Brutus conspiracy to topple Ceasar.

A numbers of resolutions were heavily voted against such as reelection of BODs, Dato Seri Md Ajib Bin Anuar, Ms Tan Mun Ling and even the auditor. The voting patterns were the same. I take only 1 of the resolution as a sample for discussion

Resolution 3 To re-elect Ms Tan Mun Lin as a Director
For 467 shareholders
Votes 45,021,704
% 56.9581

Against 27 shareholders
Votes 34,021,851
% 43.0419

Total 79,043,555

Total foreign shareholders that most likely voted against were as follow:
COL 32,117,900 shares
Pop Investment 1,279,600 shares
BROWN BROTHERS HARRIMAN & CO. (CGWI LTD) 990,000 shares
Total 34,387,500

Minus the foreign holding votes, so basically it says that only a few small minority that voted against but with not much shareholding firepower.

The rest of the 2700++ shareholders with remaining 61 million shareholding just can't be bothered(indifference).

Ceasar just declared, Rome still under his rules. The rest of you few small potatoes can keep on ranting.

Wah.. So jia lat one ah.. 😱

Ya😂😂

@Speakup..I almost had an heart attack when you shouted "limit down?"

Will wait for the AGM counting results. Thanks to Patient Investor letting me know on the 55% turnout. I was wondering why you know the turnout so fast. 😂😂

Now we know beside the legal fees, we also know the exposure that the fund manager put on shareholders if COL choose to pursue the lost opportunity to buy at lower price during the injunction.

He ka ka jiao jiao people with SICDA, now people is calling his bluff. At the end, still the shareholders have to pay the legal fees.

Of course he wants people like use to exit the fund so that nobody ka ka jiao jiao.

@Fairplay thanks for the shout on 800 k on the legal fees.

@Patient Investor. You asked will I increase beyond more than 1 share? My answer is no. I lost my respect for him. I just need to keep the 1 share to have the right to rant here.

@dumbMoney. Good thing that you remained silent throughout the AGM and made postings here. Else will be blamed unfairly again.

Calling your name in specific during AGM even though you didn't even stood up to make any speech really surprised me.

3 possibilities
1. Jealous. He can't get into #1 MBA in the world. Petty. 🤡
2. What you said is true, like 20% foreign limit was not in the constitution, dividend irrelevant theorem, etc... Really threatened him.
3. More people agree with you... He gets more scrutiny.

😂😂

Data on the recent COL started to buy after iCAP lost the court case. Discounts narrowed from 33% to 21-23%, buying caused widened discount?

Date***********Qty share****closing price****Nav*****Discount
7/8/2023*****79,000********2.46************3.54*****33
10/8/2023***136,000*******2.46************3.56*****31
15/8/2023***162,000*******2.78************3.56*****22
16/8/2023***338,500*******2.81************3.56*****21
28/8/2023***132,000*******2.80***********3.61******22
14/9/2023****80,100*******2.77***********3.58******23

If they have paid close attentions to have we posted here, they should have anticipated the same questions will be raised.. quite surprise they brought up COL ownership caused the widening discounts. All along we keep saying the fund manager is sitting on his big fat cash waiting for a bear market caused the poor performance. Disappointed shareholders on the poor performance exited at big discounts as much as 43%. The market is discounting his cash of doing nothing.

Looks like they are recycling the same story like an old broken record.

Anyhow, still the same thing I want to say

I we don't take, he takes, better we take.

Despite of they overruled the theorem on the irrelevance dividend policy. 😞

So, did they said when it be implemented?

I have 3 things that I hope to see improvements

1. Apologize to all shareholders for the lost decade
2. Cake B, first do his "innovative dividend" tinge, then iCAP PUT(I can wait on iCAP PUT tinge)
3. Re-consider re-appointment of Tan Mun Ling.

The reasons already in my previous post. I don't want to be cheong hei!

Have a nice day.

I don't want to be active for the next few days unless someone use his golden finger to poke me.

Oh...cox I have only 1 share, selling it out will lose my right to "Ngo Yew Kong Yeah"(I want to say something)

Money is not everything if things get personal just like what he did to others.......

Everytime I "bau liu"(digging the fund manager closet), share price went up, did the fund manager support the share price? afraid to face shareholders? At least he can say in AGM, you see, lesser discounts now. I certainly didn't buy. The truth will come out after AGM. This is a real buying or just wayang kulit.

This country was making some small progress that got the fund manager bullish about our bursa because of a few people that will swear Nia Mah! instead of going to Australia to be apple pickers or HK to "sei tai pheng"? (washing plates) or US to pei shu zhai(peeling potatoes). Nia Mah!

I don't like the fund manager also but I can work with him, this is what I am doing now. This is heaven - small "h"😆.....if he has the sincerity, many small h will become big H......Heavens. He is running iCAP like another big H now.....Hells.

The fund manager needs to ask his conscience. "I know what you did last summer" What has he done to others: Public Enemy #1 tinge - far worst than I merely dug out the facts from his annual reports....did he fell embarrass? Not taking profit of 16 million in 2011 on Boustead? Or did he miss the signal the train was coming when Boustead suspended dividends? The dividend that I added back was not deducted on his 1.5% management fees on the yearly Fair Value and income tax, it is for sure less than $16 million, I didn't want to be so calculative....he knows how much he owes the shareholders for this one.

T Nia Mah! Amen.

I need to add back the dividend iCAP received for Boustead Holdings Berhad(BHB). Estimated about $ 16,822,767 through out the 16 years. BHB suspended dividends from 2019-2021 and paid the last dividend in 2022 and subsequently RIP.

Overall is about break even for iCAP and not 17 millions loss. You see I have been very fair. The fund manager will use his performance to compare to MSCI by excluding the dividends in his calculation!

I want to call him to put a stop on such thing. You see the 2 pictures?

If I use what he uses, he had a horrible losses and everybody wants his head to roll.

When I added back the dividend, instead of his head to roll, may be just a small slap.

Hopefully it's not another 16 years love affair with Boustead Holdings Berhad, ended up with tragedy.

Year*** Qty**********Cost********Fair Value****Profit/loss
2008** 2,070,400***8,793,554***10,973,120***2,179,566
2009** 3,248,500***13,084,667***13,708,670***624,003
2010****6,547,900***24,139,980****24,685,583***545,603
2011****6,547,900***24,139,980****40,073,148*** 15,933,168
2012***7,197,850***23,616,247****36,349,142**** 12,732,895
2013***6,197,850***21,122,656****31,732,992**** 10,610,336
2014***6,197,850***21,122,656****32,290,799**** 11,168,143
2015***6,197,850***21,122,656****24,791,400**** 3,668,744
2016***6,197,850***21,122,657****25,267,395**** 4,144,738
2017***12,147,786***27,444,475***32,191,633****4,747,158
2018***12,147,786***27,444,475***29,397,642***1,953,167
2019***12,147,786***27,444,475***13,605,520***-13,838,955
2020***12,147,786***27,444,475***8,442,710****-19,001,765
2021***12,147,786***27,444,474***7,470,888****-19,973,586
2022***12,147,786***27,444,475***9,110,839****-18,333,636
2023***12,147,786***27,444,475***10,386,357***-17,058,118 (Realiased RIP -62%) 😨

Lol! 😂😂

That's why the ended up selling nasi lemak and air tickets for other people 😂😂 provided they still can keep their planes! 🙄

For iCAP die hard fan....in the future, you monitor yourself on what your fund manager have bought for you the combo meals on CAPA
Counter ************************************************ Qty********Cost*****Cost per share*****Price 31/10/2023*** Fair Value
Capital A Berhad - Ordinary shares******CAPITAL-A****29,282,200**24,811,409** 0.85***0.84*** 24,597,048
Capital A Berhad - Redeemable Convertible Unsecured Islamic Debt Securities
******************************************CAPITALA-LA**9,760,733**7,320,550*** 0.75*** 0.87*** 8,491,838
Capital A Berhad - Warrants**
*****************************************CAPITALA-WA***4,880,366*****0**********0******0.375*** 1,830,137
Total cost 32,131,959 Fair Value 34,919,023
Gain 2,787,064
Gain % 8.7%

Chap sang!

😂😂 At least a KFC box....thought could be worse.....wrap in newspaper