Posted by wsb_investor > 2024-04-12 21:15 | Report Abuse

Essentially, for protection business, insurers will earn a x% of total claims payment. And for Malaysia, medical claims are a lot higher than life claims.

Posted by yielder > 2024-04-21 18:33 | Report Abuse

is medical and health insurance a good business relative to other types of insurance? health insurance is not very profitable I think. Insurer is using it as a lead generator, to try to up-sell investment-linked plan, where they have much higher margin

Posted by wsb_investor > 2024-04-21 20:20 | Report Abuse

Medical insurance by itself (either standalone or rider) is not that profitable (in %) vs other line, e.g. personal accident, life, waiver, CI etc. However, it contributes to the largest absolute amount. e.g. if you have a breakdown of the premium for each components of your investment-linked plan, medical will be > 50% of the total premium.

Unique for medical insurance is the ability to reprice, and higher future profit. Your ILP now could be 40% premium to life (fixed, say 400) and 60% premium to medical. After 10 years, say 3 rounds of repricing, the breakdown could be 400 to life, 1000 to medical. The ability to reprice, essentially also meant, insurers are guaranteed never lost any money in this block of business over the long term.

Posted by yielder > 2024-04-23 09:00 | Report Abuse

wsb that means if I pay $1000 per month for ILP. initially $400 go into medical, $600 to investment. Later, insurer can adjust it, so $800 go to medical & $200 go to investment.
Is that correct? thanks

Posted by wsb_investor > 2024-04-23 09:04 | Report Abuse

technically, yes, you can do that too, but most of the time, after repricing, your total premium will increase, say to 1200 (400 to life, 800 to medical), then to 1600 (400 to life, 1200 to medical) and so on.

Posted by troy88 > 2024-04-23 09:12 | Report Abuse

Recent retracement was good time to buy. Long term TP 30+ still intact..

Posted by yielder > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

Heard from insider that 50% of people break the contract, as they cannot afford to continue paying the premium. Then they will get back less than half of their invested amount. I guess that's the most profitable part for the insurer?

Posted by wsb_investor > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

It could be true that maybe 20% people lapse the contract in first year (in this year), and probably get back less than half of initial premium paid. I don't think it will over 50%, even the most lousy tier 3 insurers also have better persistency. And no, insurers do not profit from this. BNM actually prohibits insurers to profit in this manner. Agents that "profit" from it, even if a whole life ILP only lasts for one year, the first year ~40% commission still need to pay to agents.

Posted by yielder > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

wsb how is the refund calculated? if i've invested 100k, then got retrenched & need to stop the policy. do I get back 100k minus agent commission? I think there's a penalty. Do you know how much is that?

Posted by wsb_investor > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

Exact % varies by product, but in most case, you will not able to get back any commission paid, and some expenses incurred (typically relatively negligible, except for small ticket size policy).

Posted by yielder > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

wsb if allianz were to redeem it's preference share. is it 1 pref share to 1 common share ratio? I found here, but not too sure. https://www.allianz.com.my/content/dam/onemarketing/azmb/wwwallianzcommy/pdf/investor-updates/2011/RightsofICPSHolder.pdf

Posted by wsb_investor > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

OCBC takes Great Eastern private @ S$25.60 per share, last traded price of S$18.70, embedded value per share = S$36.59.

Posted by observatory > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

So last traded price is 0.5X EV. Privatisation offer is 0.7X EV.
But if assumptions in the EV methodology are broadly correct, rightfully the net present value of future profits should be roughly the same as the EV, even if there no more new business, right?
Was the market being too pessimistic with Great Eastern, or there are hidden risk in the EV assumptions?

Posted by wsb_investor > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

筹资跨足电影业
大马保险代理Norman Pang
明年新加坡上市

Posted by wsb_investor > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

If not mistaken, great eastern adopts a very aggressive method to calculate future profit from medical business, something like always reprice 10% annually hence the Pv profit can become very unrealistic (in my view). However, not sure how the normal retail shareholders view it, since they won't have such info.

Posted by observatory > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

Thanks for your input.

Using today closing price, Allianz total market cap is RM7,694m.

Based on Maybank's input, the Jun 2023 general insurance equity is RM2.5b, and life insurance EV is RM3.5b.

Working backward, assume 1.4X book value for the GI business, the implied value of life business = RM7,694m – RM2.6b*1.4 = RM4,194m, or 4194/3500 = 1.2X EV

I hope Allianz EV methodology is conservative and prudent.

Posted by troy88 > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

On track to slowly climb to eventually reach RM30+ level..

Posted by henghua > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

Based on NTA of RM28.88, it’s not impossible and surprising. It’s a matter of time. Just be patient and wait.

Posted by wsb_investor > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

Diluted NTA is just RM14.85.
While it is possible to reach RM30, probably won't happen in 3 years time. RM25 probably max for this year.

Posted by Papayashot > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

For IFRS17, will the bond yield fluctuation (which would cause unrealized gain/lost in bonds hold) be factored while calculating the net profit?

What is the impact of the current elevated Malaysia bond yield (as compared to covid time) to an insurance company?

Posted by wsb_investor > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

Yes, but less volatile vs pre IFRS17.

Short term, negative impact to capital, might reduce ability to pay dividend etc. Long term, higher yield will have positive impact to future profit.

Posted by observatory > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

The Edge covers the privatization offer for Great Eastern Holdings (GEH). There are a number of interesting points.

0.7X P/EV is the cheapest acquisition in Singapore in 20 years.

The second cheapest is 2021 HSBC’s acquisition of Axa Singapore life business at 0.8X (incidentally, HSBC Malaysia is Allianz Malaysia banca partner)

GEH was traded at 0.5X P/EV before the acquisition offer. I might be wrong, but I suspect one reason for the low valuation was the low liquidity prior to the offer. OCBC already controlled 89% and a few other shareholders are long term investors like Sg Bagan. Sometimes only a few thousand shares traded in a day. Similar situation to Allianz just not long ago.

While OCBC moves further towards a financial supermarket model that include banking and insurance, DBS and UOB believe otherwise as they believe insurance “manufacturing” and distribution require different core competences.

If I look at Malaysia, our largest bank Maybank owns Etiqa and until now has no plan to float it. A looser arrangement is Hong Leong Bank distributing for HLA which is sister company.

So who is right?

Posted by observatory > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

2024 first interim dividend has reduced by 16%

Posted by wsb_investor > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

No right or wrong. But need to know product strategy and maximise bancassurance channel. Etiqa as example, become top 6 purely with bancassurance, but another Tokio Marine, struggle to have meaningful market share with RHB bancassurance. HLA got mix of agency and banca, not sure with the split.

Posted by observatory > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

Berkshire Hathaway announced it has acquired 6% of Chubb.

The EPS has climbed from $10 in 2016 to $22.5 in 2023, a CAGR of 12%. But despite share price increase, Chubb is currently priced at 12X forward PE. The valuation looks reasonable even though it was said that good years might have peaked.

Next I looked up Allianz SE, the forward PE is only 10-11X. Dividend yield is above 5%.

Although developed countries may have slower growth rate, but matured market may enjoy higher valuation. These two large insurers don't look expensive if compared with Malaysian counterparts.

Posted by troy88 > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

Uptrend still intact to eventually join the RM30+ elite group..

Posted by observatory > 2 months ago | Report Abuse

@wsb_investor,

I looked up the last 12 month results of a few Bursa insurers.

Company, Net Profit, Latest Equity, ROE
MNRB, 428m, 1334m, 3%
Manulife, 77m, 1270m, 6%
Allianz, 731m, 5141m, 14%
LPI, 341m, 2211m, 15%
STMKB, 347m, 1679m, 21%

They are in different sub-segments - P&C, life, or both; some conventional, some Takaful. But regardless of sub-segment, ROE measures how efficient the company is in deploying shareholder capital.

Not too surprised to find that Allianz and LPI are “better” than MNRB and Manulife.

But STMKB remains a puzzle. Post IFRS17, ROE declined a bit, but still above 20%, the highest among peers.

Is STMKB really the most efficient insurer when it comes to the use of shareholder equity? Do takaful operators need lesser capital as compared with conventional?

Any idea?

Posted by wsb_investor > 1 month ago | Report Abuse

In fact, in a way yes, for single premium product, there is 0 capital upfront. For ILP (regardless if conventional or takaful), there will be a strain, and a limit of how much can sell at a point.

So, in theory, say if we got 1.4bil population, STMB can immediately sell 45x of MRTA, but Allianz probably can only sell 3x of ILP before being restricted by the capital.

However, this is not meaningful at all. And similarly focus on ROE is not meaningful as well. MRTA is good, profitable business, but in the end, still restricted by how many new house loan by your bank partner.

Posted by mesoan > 1 month ago | Report Abuse

wsb_investor please share how 3X ILP is calculated?

Posted by wsb_investor > 1 month ago | Report Abuse

just a hypothetical number, could be 3x 5x, could also just be 2x.

Posted by wallstreetrookieNEW > 1 month ago | Report Abuse

@wsb_investor you worked in mgmt at insurance company or were you an actuary?

Posted by wallstreetrookieNEW > 1 month ago | Report Abuse

@observatory you are a very pro investor indeed. But you got one thing wrong: Some insurance companies have low ROE due to their riskier underwriting and markdown on investments. Especially re-insurers. So let's say you have one year of higher claims and cat losses, the combined ratio will shoot up, and ROE stays flat if investment returns also remain flat.

Posted by wallstreetrookieNEW > 1 month ago | Report Abuse

Switch to Allianz

Posted by wallstreetrookieNEW > 1 month ago | Report Abuse

Holding both MNRB and Allianz. Not worried at all

Posted by wallstreetrookieNEW > 1 month ago | Report Abuse

Entire forum suddenly became quiet. What the heck is wrong with yall

Posted by wsb_investor > 1 month ago | Report Abuse

Income Insurance, Allianz in talks on tie-up, seeking regulatory approval

Posted by observatory > 1 month ago | Report Abuse

If it goes through, how might it affect Allianz Malaysia?

Posted by mesoan > 3 weeks ago | Report Abuse

@observatory I guess there's no impact. the tie up would benefit the mother company Allianz SE

Posted by observatory > 3 weeks ago | Report Abuse

800k of ICPS have just been converted into ordinary shares.

ICPS provides 20% extra dividend but harder to sell. For 800k volume, if they cannot be sold in blocks, it’s better to convert into ordinary shares rather than sold at a discount to ordinary shares.

Based on shareholding information, I guess the shareholder is either EPF, or one of the Public or AHAM funds.

Posted by wsb_investor > 3 weeks ago | Report Abuse

New RBC framework just out yesterday, effectively 2027, but will have immediate impact on product mix starting next year.

Posted by troy88 > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

Uptrend to resume soon after some consolidation for insurance stocks

Posted by wsb_investor > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

Many hoo-ha with co-payment medical insurance recently. Insurers are already moving away from cashless, yet some doctor association/consumer group jump out and said, cashless is better. Many people don't see the point that, the saving in premium, will higher than the deductible in just 2-3 years time. You might need to fork out RM500 or RM1000 for admission, but you save back premium (and hidden commission) in 2-3 years. There is no free lunch, for everyone, but dropping the cashless feature, will introduce a great saving immediately.

Posted by wsb_investor > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

For many white collar office job, you (and maybe your family) already covered by your employer's group insurance. There is no real need for you to have a cashless medical insurance.

Posted by wsb_investor > 4 days ago | Report Abuse

Allianz has announced a pre-conditional voluntary cash general offer to acquire at least 51% of the shares of Income Insurance, subject to regulatory approval. Allianz intends to offer $40.58 per share for a total transaction value of approximately $2.2 billion (approximately EUR 1.5 billion) for 51% of the shares in Income Insurance. The offer price represents a premium over Income's NAV of $29.55 per share of 37.3%.

Posted by observatory > 4 days ago | Report Abuse

The business could be supported by the newly set up shared IT services in Malaysia. But any possible synergy with Allianz Malaysia?

Posted by wsb_investor > 4 days ago | Report Abuse

Allianz already has some existing shared service in Malaysia, but in a very weird arrangement.

Posted by observatory > 4 days ago | Report Abuse

What do you mean?

Posted by wsb_investor > 4 days ago | Report Abuse

If my understanding is correct, Allianz will loan out its internal staff (under a single entity), as shared service to other BUs, and get to profit from it. A more common way is, shared service will operate as a separated entity (might or might not under local BU, typically not under local BU, but directly under Group).

Posted by observatory > 4 days ago | Report Abuse

I see. Maybe for non-IT staffs. For IT they transferred the majority of Malaysian staffs to the new regional delivery center Allianz Technology Sdn Bhd

Posted by mesoan > 21 hours ago | Report Abuse

but shared service is very small business, unlikely to improve Allianz mas earning