Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 10:17 | Report Abuse

1. If Genneva collects RM10 - they pay RM2 for hibah, RM1 for agent's commission and operation costs, RM5 they masuk pocket leaving only RM2 in cash/assets.

2. Thats why the Con-sultans have been pressuring new customers with all kind of ridiculous promotions and some urging them even to take personal bank loans to purchase this fraudulent scheme.

3. More and more new purchasers are needed to enable their ponzi pyramid to survive.

So folks, who has the last laugh now? Wakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakak!!

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 10:36 | Report Abuse

1. These CON-sultans know that they are the ones that have absolutely DESTROYED the lives of 60,000 customers which includes old uncles and aunties, pakcik and makcik, retirees and pensioners, sick cancer, kidney,etc patients, single mothers, widows etc., NOT BNM or the authorities.

2. Well I hope these CONs can sleep well after reality bites. The courts and authorities do not act or decide based upon the so-called human interest stories (sob sob stories). They look for facts and solid evidence, accounting records, financial statements, assets, liabilities, profits, payments etc.

3. Purchasers should now be very wary and cautious of people who act like they are saving the world by supporting gold scammers. Yes, BEWARE OF FALSE MESSIAHS.

Wakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakak!!

Posted by shirley1 > 2012-10-12 13:08 | Report Abuse

saw that in the news too, like you say pensioners, retires, patients, cancer, kidney lost their money here.. imagine what are they going to do or live, some of them are old or sick, maybe without children taking care of them.... they have no jobs, just expect a bit higher return than bank FD for living..

frankly lor, if that happen to you next time, I don't think is funny lor, if the authority not doing something.

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 14:04 | Report Abuse

1. The Madoff family gained unusual access to Washington's lawmakers and regulators through the industry's top trade group. Madoff offered steady returns to his clientele. Some Madoff investors were wary of removing their money from his fund, in case they could not get back in later. An unnamed investor remarked, "The returns were just amazing and we trusted this guy for decades — if you wanted to take money out, you always got your check in a few days. That’s why we were all so stunned.

2. Well folks, the above sound familiar ....... Is Geneva using influential people to decieve & lure purchasers from their real business activity? BNM has raided the goldcos and the truth will prevail soon.

For the time being folks, the victims will have to live with the pain that GM2 caused them. It's going to hurt them for the rest of their lives. An expensive lesson learned? Hahahahahahahah!!

Posted by shirley1 > 2012-10-12 14:47 | Report Abuse

Congratulation bullear.... you have all the necessary attributes to be a successful opportunist and maybe even conman that cheat old people... heartless and living without emotional. Hahahaha.. salute you.. Hahahaha

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 14:53 | Report Abuse

Part 1

What the newspapers didn't mention on Genneva -> Financial Ruin for some.

The newspapers only mentioned that investors will lose a source of monthly revenue, and also that they stand to lose the 20%-30% markup they paid for their purchased gold.

So, someone who had RM1,000,000 in the bank, and bought RM800,000 worth of gold with it stands to lose RM200,000, right? Not good, but still survivable, right? Not for some.

For some, the scenario is much MUCH worse, thanks to many Genneva clients taking stupid advice from the Genneva agents to "leverage" their income.

Because the suggested method was through Islamic Banking quasi loans with the gold as collateral. Let me give an example of what happens using the same above ex-millionaire.

........cont Part 2

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 15:03 | Report Abuse

Part 2

Example: Bob starts with RM1,000,000.
He goes to Genneva, pays RM1m, gets 800k worth of gold. Genneva promises him an income stream of 2% ie RM20k per month. They promise to buy the gold back at RM1m upon maturity.

NOW, under his agent's advice, he goes to Al-Rajhi bank and gets an "Islamic loan", which is similiar to a normal loan but with worse terms. Basically, they take the 800k worth of gold as collateral, and give him 75% on it, RM600,000. BUT, the interest (they call it a protection fee for storing the gold) is based on the 800k, and they charge 1% per month!

So, now Bob has RM600k in his pocket, 600k debt, and 800k being held as collateral. The 800k is an asset, but a quasi asset, as people who have failed to service their loans would know!

He also has a promise from Genneva that they will buy his 800k gold for RM1m. He also has incoming 20k per month from Genneva and -8k a month from Al-Rajhi. Sounds good so far, right?

.....cont Part 3

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 15:25 | Report Abuse

Part 3

So Bob follows his agent's advice and further "leverages" himself. He goes to Genneva, gives them 600k, and gets back 480k worth of gold. He goes to Al-Rajhi (AR) and gives gold, gets 360k.

Current Status:
360k in pocket, 960k debt, 1280k gold held as collateral (gc) and an option to sell the gold back (goldoption) for RM1.6m.
Income stream 32k Genneva, -12.8k Al Rajhi.

He does it again.
-RM360k, + 288k gold.
-288k gold, + RM216k.

Status:
RM216 pocket, RM1.176m debt, 1.568m gc, goldoption 1.96m.
Income 39.8k Genneva, -15.68k AR

Let's stop here even though this could continue a few more rounds.

Anyhow, *IF* Genneva honors the agreement, at the end of 1 year, Bob redeems everything, and his status is now:
1.960m (since he sells the gold, the 1.568m no longer comes into play)+216k-1176k +(39.8k x 12) - (15.68k x 12)
=RM 1m (his initial bank account) +477.6k -188.16k(the income streams)
=RM 1,289,440.

Bob makes a nice 29% profit in one year! He is happy!

........cont Part 4

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 15:45 | Report Abuse

Part 4

BUT

If Genneva does not honor the agreement? For example, if the company ceased operations? Bob's status BEFORE HE GOES TO REDEEM HIS GOLD FROM AR is:

Rm216k - (15.68k x 12 he has had to pay AR the monthly interest/ protection fee still!)

= 27.84k in his pocket!

And now, there are 2 possibilities at this point, actually. Cause in case you didn't notice, Bob only has RM27.84k in his pocket, and his debt is RM1176k. He can't get back his collateral unless he finds someone to lend him the money to get back his collateral!

Case A, someone lends the money to Bob:
Bob redeems his loan, get's back his gold.
Bob now has 27.84k in his pocket, RM1.176k debt to whoever gave him this new loan, and he has RM1.568k worth of gold.
He now has to figure out what to do with that gold!

If he manages to sell it for RM1.568k, his situation is not so bad.... that means that after squaring his debt, he now has 1568-1176+27.84= 419.84k. This is a pretty bad drop, from RM1m, but Bob can still survive it.

However, if gold price has dropped, OR if he can only sell his gold for a lower price (VERY likely, gold shops and banks and other people who buy gold will take their share of the profit), Bob will lose even more. If he loses 10% when selling the gold, he now has 263k. If he loses 20%, he only has RM106k. Bob is now looking at some VERY serious lifestyle changes if he lost 90% of his savings.

......cont Part 5

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 15:55 | Report Abuse

Part 5

How about Case B, where Bob cannot get anyone to lend him money?

Well, his situation is then that he has 27,84k in his pocket, and he's completely at the mercy of Al-Rajhi bank! I have no idea what happens in the case of default in this scenario, I need an expert in Islamic Banking Syariah law to explain this scenario to me.

But as far as I know, AR is still holding onto the gold, and therefore they are still charging him 15,680 per month as protection money, so AFAIK, Bob goes bankrupt in 2 months...

And don't get me started on the people who didn't have RM1m in the first place, like Bob above (Part 2).

I've heard of plenty of people who took out loans to buy their initial "investment" in the first place... those people are now in EVEN WORSE TROUBLE than Bob in scenario B... they are ALREADY bankrupt, and have loan payments that they CANNOT MEET.

Makes the 20%-30% losses described in the newspaper look absolutely pleasant by comparison, doesn't it?

.....The End....from The Angry Investor

There you are folks! Anyone here in this type of scenario? Care to share? Heheheheheh!!

Posted by andy118 > 2012-10-12 15:59 | Report Abuse

Good write up. Thanks

Posted by Hustle > 2012-10-12 16:04 | Report Abuse

Somehow, Bob forget to invest apple to apple style,if Bob establish a 1M'sia Sdn Bhd with RM1 capital and do a bank loan to invest Gold,he will be treat as an emperor by the bank now.Since,bear a small debt is my problem,bear a big debt is not my problem anymore..........hehehe

Posted by andy118 > 2012-10-12 16:07 | Report Abuse

Bob will still kena because he will have to do a bank guarantee unless he got someone to do the guaranteeing.

Posted by Hustle > 2012-10-12 16:09 | Report Abuse

Bank still can packaging all the Gen Gold and sell as AAA bond to public as compensation for Bob debt.

Posted by shirley1 > 2012-10-12 16:13 | Report Abuse

hahaha bullbear, you are really good, know how to calculate. salute you for making big money !! Congralution to you again !!

you mean there is important ppl involve or the bank, how come the authority never take action earlier. those rich one kena because they are greedy and who care.

unfortunate for all the retirees, pensioners, sick cancer, patients, single mother, windows etc. believe not all of them graduate from Harvard or business school lor ? don't have 1 million to invest lor, maybe dont understand what are you talking.

whatever we do, or whoever is the agent, don't cheat old poor ppl money.

Posted by Hustle > 2012-10-12 16:18 | Report Abuse

So please remember do not switch to bond market even it is a crisis.Equity still have his trustee honor but bond is only use money to buy debt and definitely you cannot spread red pain if he don't want to pay back his debt.

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 16:20 | Report Abuse

I am very happy BNM took this action not because I am jealous that these fools are making tons of returns a month, it because it protrays human psychology in GREED, FEAR & SELF DECEPTION!

Serve them right!! Hahahahahahahahah!!

Posted by jtpc2006 > 2012-10-12 16:21 | Report Abuse

good analgoy Bullbear, it's devastating to the investors, what can the govt do to get their money back? genneva should not have been allowed to operate for such a long time, so much damage done!

Posted by Hustle > 2012-10-12 16:23 | Report Abuse

What will BNM do with the Gold bar since it is Emas Haram?

Posted by shirley1 > 2012-10-12 16:26 | Report Abuse

Bullbear, can you explain those that does not have 1 million to invest in this scheme one ? wish to find out how they get the 1 million to invest ?

if a retiree with no income, and not much savings.. will the bank loan them 1 million ?

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 16:27 | Report Abuse

Even if Genneva ride out of this storm, I bet most of the so call "investors" (but you can't call them investors cause its not an investment company, its a trading company, more likely I label them as punters), will get out of it as soon as possible.

In Ponzi scheme, if all layers trying to get out, it disastrous. Ask youself folks, you think Genneva has the cash to buy back all gold?

I bet even if 20% of their "punters" want to sell back the gold, they will go bust. Hahahahahahahahahah!!

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 16:57 | Report Abuse

Well Shirley1, to those victims no one put a gun at their head to force them to buy. The only thing to do now is to brace themselves for the consequences. In fact, the victims' rage should be directed to the GM2 operators and all their lying con-sultants!

Folks, if people do not learn from history, they will repeat history & therefore will become HISTORY(Bestino+Samudra JV+GM1+GM2=Greed)!!.....Hahahahahahahah!!

As such it's going to hurt them for the rest of their lives. An expensive lesson learned indeed!!.......Wakakakakakakakak!!

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 21:22 | Report Abuse

Interesting Points from the Latest statement from BNM dated 10/10/12 :-
# Schemes are believed to be NOT SUSTAINABLE to provide the promised high MONTHLY RETURNS, nor would they be able to provide the BUY BACK GUARANTEE of gold.

# The returns promised are NOT FUNDED through gold trading, but from the MONIES INVESTED into such schemes.

# The amount of ASSETS & MONIES held by these companies DO NOT COMMENSURATE with the amount collected from their investors.

# Prior to the joint raid these companies have DELAYED IN RETURNING gold or money to the investors within the stipulated time AS PROMISED.

Folks, I was approached early last year but have declined the offer to invest with this goldco. My reason the returns are too good to be true. Rule of Thump – Something too good to be true, I bet it’s a scam!

From the above statement by BNM, I do believe there will be not enough gold left to distribute fairly amongst those waiting for theirs’.

Posted by transformer123 > 2012-10-12 21:34 | Report Abuse

Invested on such scheme is deemed to be a total loss...
Unlike shares, still can cut loss unless company being classified under pn17...
If an investor or trader is prefer to receive dividend, a blue chip shares is safe to place on like digi, Telekom, Maybank, and the business is solid and proven regardless of financial crisis...
Gold, is only good when more paper money is issued....however, you cannot carry the gold car for example 100kg gold bar....
Second, it is a very illiquid asset... Like Geneva Consultant always claimed ready buyer and ready seller... It is like shares, there must be a demand and supply...
Will the goldsmith in the country really accept the go,d bar? Me asked tomei, they don't acknowledge the gold bar issued by Geneva...also, goldsmith shop in my hometown...
So?... Can the gold bar provide you food when you hungry? When you thirst? When you need a warmth or shelter?
I did ask a constant from Geneva if I wish to invest RM10 million, will Geneva guaranteed back the capital to me upon maturity? He said to me I don't know and depends the situation...what? What situation. HE CANNOT PROVIDE ME AN ANSWER...
one common character I found and discovered from Geneva consultant, they are greedy on the commission only...they don't check, study, research and question more before jump into the company....
Well, pray hard investor can claim back their money ...
Geneva must responsible and so do the Con..sultans...

Posted by alexisvics > 2012-10-12 21:59 | Report Abuse

My friend in Sabah invested RM300,000 GOLD in one of the gold scheme. She was given a receipt only, not even any gold bar. She was promised return of RM600,000. But I think this to good to be true.

Posted by chongkonghui > 2012-10-12 22:12 | Report Abuse

Blame no one but own greed. It has absolutely nothing to do with education background.

Posted by Emzette > 2012-10-12 22:16 | Report Abuse

sorry for intruding. Anybody knows if Public Gold might suffer the same fate?

Posted by chleong > 5 hours ago | Report Abuse

hi! bullbear based on your work out in part 3, with RM216K pocket money in case *IF* Genneva honors the agreement, at the end of 1 year, my question is how could Bob redeems the ALL the GOLD from Al-Rajhi. maybe he can redeem it with 216k pocket minus 34.56k annum AR % plus "20.16k borrowing from friend" to repay 288K debt incurred. he can redeem his last bought gold "3rd round from Genneva for 360k plus 86.4K annum income (216k + 86.4k - 34.56k - 288k). in order "reclaim his invested money" he needs to borrow 2 more round from friends to reverse the whole thing.... as i ask this question i get the answer, he too is earning "2% monthly HIBAH" from the 2 earlier invested gold invested with Genneva, he may not need to borrow 20.16K from friends. but then the 1st bought GOLD will expired around 3 mths or 6 mths depends on contract. a bit confuse here. anywhere thank you for clarification. i was lucky that i didn't join bcos i find it hard to justify how Genneva make money to pay for 2% hibah,is not my style to implicate my surrounding friends, i question them a few time, it seems no one can give good reasonable answer, ponzi perhaps

Posted by shirley1 > 2012-10-12 22:32 | Report Abuse

Chongkonghui you are wrong, education is important. before any newbies want to trade or invest, the must be educated first. After educated, they still don't listen then only you can say them greed.

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 22:40 | Report Abuse

Emzette......Based on information received by BNM, below is the list of known companies and websites which are not authorised nor approved under the relevant laws and regulations administered by BNM. Public Gold at no.62 please view here: http://www.bnm.gov.my/documents/2012/Financial_Consumer_Alert_listEN_Sept.pdf

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 22:55 | Report Abuse

Geneva Singapore - There was no notice as to when the office would re-open. Retiree B. Tang, 58, an investor, was spotted outside the deserted Genneva office at Orchard Towers yesterday afternoon.

He declined to reveal how much he had invested, but he said he had received about $1,000 every month for the past three months. He had invested in May. But Monday's raid has put a stop to these payouts.

Said Mr Tang: "I KNEW this was a risky scheme. On hindsight, it was a bit STUPID. Thankfully I can deal with this loss of money. I still own a home. It was money that I was willing to invest and lose".

Mr Tang added he was not going to take legal action as he saw no point in it.

What about Geneva Malaysia? The office still open folks? Hahahahahaha!!

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 22:59 | Report Abuse

Geneva Singapore - Lawyer R. Nandakumar from RHTLaw Taylor Wessing told the press that the likelihood of customers suing Genneva to get their money back would depend on the "nature of the agreement that the customer enters into with the company".

"If there are obligations to make certain payments and the company defaulted on the payments, then a contractual claim may arise," he said.

Mr Wong told the press that there was hope for investors who were still holding on to their gold bars as they could sell them in the market.

In Malaysia, hundreds of investors gathered at Genneva's headquarters in Petaling Jaya and its office in Penang demanding answers, after the Malaysian police and financial regulators raided the firm, acting on numerous complaints by investors.

So folks, anyone went there? Care to share the news? Hehehehehe!!

Posted by chongkonghui > 2012-10-12 23:20 | Report Abuse

Read this... same 'INSANE' Stories at different countries at different eras because of same "Human DNA".


http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/wisdom_in_stock_trading/19086.jsp

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 23:37 | Report Abuse

Comment by Genneva Disgruntled Customer Group - Two groups of customers that were most seriously affected by the Genneva's delay in payment and delivery of gold:

1) The group that surrendered the gold and didn't get back the money, and

2) The group that paid the money and didn't get back the gold.

Was it all pre-planned....some say it was...but then who knows???

So folks, after reading the above comment you got anything else to add or share here? Heheheheheheh!!

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-13 00:01 | Report Abuse

This comment copied from http://www.facebook.com/pages/Genneva-Disgruntled-Customer-Group/162867987187986

Genneva Disgruntled Customer Group : CONFESSIONS OF A GENNEVA CONSULTANT - Nicky Wu

My name is ZZZZZZ. I used to be an active con-sultant for Genneva ( formally known as Samudra) in the early 2009. Thankfully, I managed to totally pull-out/withdrawn all contracts since last year .

I assumed you are new and therefore do not fully understand what is really going on with the company. They kept changing company policies as and when they like, to suit their own interest every few days.

At first, every Consultants were forced to pay portion out of their commission regularly each month- so called monthly meeting expenses!!!. Later on, we, consultants were made compulsory/forced to pay Rm 500 each to joint as Gold Beam membership.

From there on-wards, to renew membership with Rm 250 every year.
Why is there a need to joint as member of Gold Beam when all of us consultants are under the umbrella of Genneva ??

Without our consent, Genneva can just subtract from our commission to “donate” to functions like big walk, F1, etc to boost it’s name/image. If company is doing well, why does the company needs to boost its image at the expense of its consultants??

When company’s cash-flow was low, its started forcing everyone of us to pay Rm 250 to Rm300 each to attend non-sense hibah training. After that, we had to pay extra Rm 40 per contract for stamping.

Later on, company came up with deducting Rm5 per cheque deposited into clients’ bank account. Is there any other company around who charge a fee for banking-in employees’ salary/commission into bank a/c??

To me, all the above collections are like day light robbery.

Have you ever heard of anyone having to pay to attend for their own company’s Annual Dinner Genneva must be the first and only one. On top of paying for dinner ticket, we even had to pay bus transportation fare to the event venue. Imagine that.

During the Annual dinner, lucky draws were not lucky at all because Genneva never fulfill its obligations until today. When asked where are the won prices, they said had to cancel because violate government guide lines. Free trips to China also no news until today!!!

Of course you may say these are small matters as long as you get your monthly commission and physical gold bars in hand. Yes, I do agree will you. Even if company wind-up or no longer pays out hibab, its “OK” as long as gold bars are with the clients.

But this is not the case. I had emphasized this 2 years back, for those who follow this forum would still remember. My only concern is the “Waiting Time”.

Scenario 1) Waiting to get hold of your physical gold after you have made payment
AND
Scenario 2) Waiting to collect payment cheque when you had delivered your gold in advance to the company during “sell back”.

2 years back then, the “waiting time” was about 2 weeks maximum but now, it seems stretching beyond months!!!.

My fellow CON-sultants, have you ever thought of the consequences if you are caught in the above scenarios when suddenly :-
1) Genneva follows Gold Label footstep, to announced in newspaper it no longer sustain business & decided to wind-up or
2) Bank Negara decided to conduct a raid at Genneva & found no cash nor gold available at the premises.

The key point here is “Waiting Time”. The months of “waiting time” is total nightmare. You will have to be hold responsible to your relatives & friends whom you had convinced that the scheme is “safe”.

Please please and please do not compare Genneva with Poh Kong or any other gold smith shop. With Poh Kong, you pay and ON THE SPOT you get you gold. Likewise when you sell to Poh Kong, you get you cash ON THE SPOT.

Please please do not mislead others that you have physical gold in hand. In actual fact, during the duration of 3 months contract, you only get to hold on gold bar a few days at the most.By the time you got your gold, its already time to pass back to company for renewal inspection!!!! Yet wait another round….

Please, no more mentioning of holding gold bar in your hand & wait for it to appreciate then sell. The main issue of discussion is, the time for Genneva to deliver gold or cheque cleared before anything bad happened.

For those who are still waiting to get the gold or sell-back payment cheque, sweet dreams. By the way, ever wonder why sell-back payment cheques NOT auto-deposited into bank like monthly commission!?!?!.

Dear uncles and aunties, the end is near…You may start crying…………………..

So folks, view the link on top to view more interesting comments.

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-13 10:47 | Report Abuse

Written by Finance twitter - Part I

Folks, was Genneva Malaysia, a company dealing in buying and selling gold products another Ponzi company waiting to collapse? Actually directors of Genneva – Marcus Yee Yuen Seng, Ng Poh Weng and Chin Wai Leong – can use MLM (Multi-level marketing) Pyramid system to do this business.

While MLM is more profitable, it’s more cumbersome since the regulatory control is much tighter. Of course you still can get away by appointing politically-linked Datuk-Datuk as your company chairman to facilitate license renewal and to close many enforcers’ eyes when irregularities occur. (Bernie Mandoff modus operandi)

Genneva brilliantly plays in a grey unregulated area – gold trading. Interestingly, according to the gold exemption order 1986, any Tom, Dick and his pussy cat can hold, borrow, lend, buy, sell or export gold without contravening any laws.

In short, it’s easier to move around gold than hold a rally in this country. Genneva was careful not to collect deposits from investors as this action can be seen as crossing into BAFIA’s (Banking and Financial Institutions Act) territory which requires a license from the Central Bank (Bank Negara). Without a need for a license (and renewal) means one less problem in doing business for Genneva.

How the Genneva Gold Investment Scheme works is quite simple. You purchase the physical gold which comes with a S&P (Sales ad Purchase Agreement), a Certificate of Ownership and a Letter of Hibah. The juice of the orgasm was in the form of “Hibah” (or monthly gift) – ranging from 1.8% (50g – 95g of gold purchase) to 2.5% (3kg and above of gold purchase) in cash return every month. That’s a whopping 21.6% – 30% annual return rate, mind you.

Warren Buffett must be super idiot not to join Genneva, no? In addition, your initial capital is 100% protected because according to die-hard investors, you can sell back your gold to Genneva at the same price you bought initially.

However, according to Genneva website, the company “does not” gives any undertaking or guarantee the repurchase of the gold products sold to its purchaser. Now, what did mom said about there ain’t no such thing as a free lunch. ............... cont

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-13 10:56 | Report Abuse

Written by Finance twitter - Part II

First of all, this gold trading is a mega project. Genneva claims to have about 50,000 satisfied clients (or investors) in Malaysia alone. Let’s assume each investor poured in RM100,000 for this once-in-a-lifetime investment – that’s a mind-boggling RM5,000,000,000 (RM5 billion) hot money.

Knowing how greedy Malaysians are, the RM100,000 of investment quoted here is a super conservative figure. And here comes the magic. Genneva actually sells its gold to customers at a staggering premium of 20-30 percent. For example, while UOB was selling gold at $74,500 per kilobar, Genneva sells $96,000 per kilobar, on the same date.

And why wouldn’t Genneva laugh all its way to the bank with RM1 billion to RM1.5 billion in profit (20-30%) from these so-called 50,000 “expert” gold investors (*tongue-in-cheek*). Now, do you understand why I call this scheme a mega project? It’s because everything was designed to be gigantic.

If you want to fleece others’ money, do it big and systematically. Adding spices to instil artificial confidence would be to invite heavyweights such as mighty former PM and PM’s wife. Heck, Genneva even has the Sultan of Pahang’s daughter, as its chairman. Very confincing strategy, right?

Do you really need to be a rocket scientist for a scheme that gives you 1.8% – 2.5% of cash when the banker already made 20% – 30% in profit upfront? If you think taking 30 bucks from your pocket and return 2 bucks and 50 cents to you every month is the best invention since sliced bread, then you deserve to be scammed.

But there’re many great testimonies – not only they’re still keeping the physical gold, they’re also making 30% annual return rate. Of course they do otherwise this scheme won’t work, would they? You need some testimonies for this musical chair game to continue playing. And due to greed, some investors would sell every inch of cloth increasing their investment, which keep the money rolling.

How do you know the gold you’re hugging every night is as pure as it claims? How do you know it’s not tungsten-filled gold bars? Yes dude, jewelry stores on 47th Street and Fifth Avenue in Manhattan discovered a 10-ounce 999.9 gold bar costing nearly $18,000 turned out to be a counterfeit.

The bar was filled with tungsten, which weighs nearly the same as gold but costs just over a dollar an ounce. Heck, the gold bar even had stamp of the reputable Swiss Produits Artistiques Métaux Précieux and a serial number. Apparently the victim, Ibrahim Fadl, a dealer himself bought the gold bars from a merchant who has sold him real gold before ( watch video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VLekbvBCmUo ). Previously such fake gold bars case happened in England but now had spread to New York.

If you challenge Genneva investors with questions, they may put a gun to your head. Besides, who cares as long as they continue receiving their Hibah. To the investors, Hibah was the main juice of orgasm but to Genneva, Hibah may be their biggest bait.

Frankly, the whole system works as long as the gold price doesn’t crash, people continues to buy gold bars, Genneva continues to generate positive income from their billions of dollars of profit elsewhere, no power struggle within the company and whatnot.

For every single Ringgit of your hard-earned money, Genneva can pay you the Hibah for 10-months and still make profit – with not a single cent coming out from the company’s own pocket. It’s your original money that they’re rolling and playing, as simple as that.

Genneva also knows all the 50,000 “happy” investors will not redeem their gold at the same time. If they do, the company will simply go bust simply because they don’t have RM5 billion (based on example above) to take back all the gold bullions (*grin*). With billions of dollars war chest, Genneva was like a mini bank.

Back in Oct 2010, the directors of Genneva Sdn Bhd – Ng Poh Weng, 60, face 263 charges involving RM185mil while Marcus Yee Yuen Seng, 58, faces 234 charges amounting to RM153mil and Chin Wai Leong, 34, face 210 charges involving RM212mil.

Earlier in July 2009, Bank Negara (Central Bank) had frozen their personal and company bank accounts and their asset of gold bars. Later, Genneva Pte Ltd, also a gold trading company in Singapore, with the same directors from Malaysia’s Genneva, lost a lawsuit from one of its investors claiming $190,000 with a second writ of summons for a total sum of $86,000 in the pipeline. If everyone was enjoying 21.6% – 30% annual return with option to sell back the gold bars to Genneva, why would investors sue the company?

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-13 11:00 | Report Abuse

Written by Finance Twitter - Final Part

Another burning question – if the company’s account and asset were seized and frozen since 2009, how can the directors and company allowed to operate until the latest raid early this month, more than 3-years later?

Was Bank Negara sleeping on the job? Were there too many (greedy) hands in the cookie jar, hence the power struggle (or rather money struggle), considering the gigantic amount of money in the coffer (if there’s any left).

Or was it purely SOP (standard operating procedure) by any ponzi scheme operator to call it the day by asking the authorities to raid the company itself so that they can stop paying investors, knowing very well nobody would go to jail?

There’re people who makes good money from Genneva gold trading scheme but not everybody makes it to the finish line. But now that the company is raided, what’s next?

As usual, early bird catches the worm and as for the latecomers – remember to join the party early next time, will ya?

Link: http://www.financetwitter.com/2012/10/genneva-gold-another-collapsing-ponzi-scam.html

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-13 11:23 | Report Abuse

Folks, interesting point to ponder from lessons from the past:

One criterion was whether the investor was actively involved in recruiting others, in which case he was considered as abetting the scheme. “Any investor who was also involved in the scheme as a recruiter or an upliner would not be eligible to claim his money back" says the SC in its website on Swisscash ponzi scheme.

So folks, to those people........How Now? Heheheheheh!!

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-13 11:26 | Report Abuse

Lessons from the past

Meanwhile, it may be useful to study the case of the Swisscash investment programme, an Internet-based scam that drew civil action by the Securities Commission (SC) in 2007. But before that, Swisscash-related websites had been flagged by the SC as unauthorised investment websites.

In September 2006, the SC and Bank Negara issued a joint press release to warn Malaysians against investing in the Swisscash programme, which claimed to have invested in equities, commodities and foreign exchange, and offered returns of up to 300% within 15 months of investment.

To stop the defendants from holding out as fund managers and investment advisers without a licence, the SC filed a civil suit in June 2007 against three Malaysians and four companies controlled by one of the three individuals.

The regulator also obtained a worldwide injunction to prevent the Swisscash operators from disposing their assets, and to compel them to disclose details of their assets, companies and bank accounts.

In September the following year, the SC obtained judgment against the defendants in the amount of US$83mil and such further amounts as may be traced for payment.

A November 2009 settlement between the SC and two Malaysian defendants paved the way for the compensation of Swisscash investors, using the eligibility and payment criteria and payment ratio approved by the Kuala Lumpur High Court.

These criteria were recommended by the SC and PricewaterhouseCoopers Advisory Services Sdn Bhd, the Administrator appointed by the SC to manage the restitution from a pool of funds amounting to RM32.7mil.

One criterion was whether the investor was actively involved in recruiting others, in which case he was considered as abetting the scheme. “Any investor who was also involved in the scheme as a recruiter or an upliner would not be eligible to claim his money back,” says the SC in its website.

The Administrator received 22,780 claims, totalling approximately RM188mil, from Malaysian and foreign investors.

According to the SC's Annual Report 2010, RM30.53mil was paid to 19,625 eligible claimants. The payout rate was 20 sen to the ringgit. By the end of 2010, the Administrator had effected restitution to 99.1% of the total eligible claims.

Considering these numbers, the Swisscash case is not exactly a source of comfort and optimism for the Genneva Malaysia consultants and customers. The SC's actions here show that it's a long, hard road towards getting back money albeit merely 20% of the original sum invested in a too-good-to-be-true scheme.

Swisscash ought to be a cautionary tale about the need to truly be sure about the transparency and regulatory aspects of an investment scheme. Sadly, not many people see it that way.

Those involved in Genneva Malaysia are likely to say their case is completely different. Let's hope they are right.

Folks, read more on "What’s next for Genneva Malaysia?" dated 13/10/12 here: http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=%2F2012%2F10%2F13%2Fbusiness%2F12167213&sec=business

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-13 16:04 | Report Abuse

Given what the police, Bank Negara and the Attorney-General's Chambers have said to date, it's hard to imagine Genneva Malaysia going back to business as usual.

That's a horrifying thought for its customers and consultants, said to number in the tens of thousands.

Well folks, the end is near!! Heheheheheheheheh!!\

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-13 17:07 | Report Abuse

After wrapping up their investigations on the goldcos, the agencies will decide whether there's any wrongdoing and if so, whether there's sufficient evidence to initiate prosecution. That decision may come soon.

Well folks, such uncertainty is stressful and painful, particularly for those who have at stake money that they simply can't afford to do without. The next best thing is to know when, if ever, they'll be handed back the money.

However folks, nobody can provide that information anytime soon. He that thinks he can afford to be negligent is not far from being poor!

Heheheheheheh!!

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-14 13:03 | Report Abuse

The Swisscash case is not exactly a source of comfort and optimism for the Genneva Malaysia consultants and customers.

In the Swisscash case, the SC's actions here show that it's a long, hard road towards getting back money albeit merely 20% of the original sum invested in a too-good-to-be-true scheme.

Will Geneva be any different from Swisscash case, folks? So those still holding the gold bars, better lose the anchor then the whole ship. For those with investment still stuck with GM2 ............... going to lose the whole ship?

Time will tell!

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-15 13:37 | Report Abuse

Comment by Genneva Disgruntled Customer Group Question:

1. Who stand to benefit most from the BNM raid?

Answer: Shocking as it may sound but GM stands to benefit the most actually. Why? They don't have to pay hibah or deliver gold to customers any more particularly if they are on the brink of collapse as seen in Singapore. And if they have a few billions stashed in Switzerland or the Cayman Islands, they can live like Lords in any country of their liking. They can also always buy another small, obscure company, change the name later and start a new scam all over.

2. Who stand to lose the most in this whole sordid episode??

Answer: The customers of course. The aunts, uncles, pakcik, makcik, retirees, sick and disabled, households, consultants who left their jobs and went full time, even banks and financial institutions (from the money siphon off FDs, Savings and other banking facility).

The ordinary folk who surrendered all their hard-earned money and life-savings, families who pooled their money just to send a family member for dialysis or for further education overseas, retirees who withdrew all of their EPF, savings, sold their jewellery and gold teeth, professionals who made term/individual loans but never saw their gold, these are the biggest losers.

The monies GM received amounted to billions ie RM3 - 4 billion from customer's money. Can GM account for every sen of this money???

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-15 19:32 | Report Abuse

High Returns Investment Scheme

1. No one can argue that conducting such investment scams and internet fraud can be highly lucrative.

2. Creativity is keeping these guys alive! Tactics being used are no longer straightforward, not in all cases.

3. Some Malaysia based con artists now understand the laws and regulations of the Malaysia.

4. The con artists appear to be well established and honest corporations or individuals, defrauding investors billions of dollars.

5. Most of these companies operate using proven techniques and are savvy in their area of specialization.

6. Operators generally set up a website offering an "investment program" which promises high returns per month, disclosing little or no detail about aspects of how money is to be invested.

7. Their headquarters are well set and their websites look professional, and they know the lingo to get the investor’s attention, so people fall easily.

8. The con artists are experts at using social media — including YouTube, Twitter and Facebook — to lure investors and create the illusion of social consensus that these investments are legitimate.

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-16 10:17 | Report Abuse

Genneva - I don't understand how it's clients are so blur!

I don't understand how so many people think that Genneva is a legitimate company that makes it's profit through selling gold.

The worst part is that many of it's "clients" are actual BUSINESSMEN who sell goods and services to make their living.

Since someone didn't like my "proton car" example and said car depriciates but gold appreciates, I'll simplify and repeat my explanation, hopefull improving it.

Let's take a construction company. Sime Darby. Property appreciates too, right? So, let's say it costs them 500k to build a house. They sell it for RM1million.

1) Do you think that Sime Darby can afford to pay you 240,000 a year as hibah, as a present for buying the house from them???
If Sime Darby came up with this sort of deal, would you go for it???

2) If Sime Darby signs a contract where they have to buy the house back from you at RM1m after 6 months... do you think Sime Darby can do that???

More importantly, as a business person... if you buy 1kg rice for RM3 and sell it to me for RM5... but I turn around and return it to you and get back my RM5... how much profit have you made? ... that's right, NOTHING, it does not matter how much "profit" you make on a sale if the goods and money are returned!

So, what about a company that combines 1) and 2) ? In other words, Genneva is a company that MAKES NO PROFIT. ZERO. And yet somehow it pays out lots of money.

And none of it's "investors" are suspicious? ...

Generally, I would say that these "investors" are partially guilty of being party to an illegal activity. Because, essentially, all of them are having the attitude "I don't care where Genneva get's it's money from, as long as they pay me my due portion"

So, if Genneva is found guilty of illegal money laundering and all these investors lose their money, it's pretty much comparable to a bunch of people who invested in an unlicensed massage parlor which gets closed down. Sorry for your loss, but you were investing in an illegal activity in the first place...

Written by: http://theangryinvestor.blogspot.com/

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-17 10:55 | Report Abuse

Some news related to GENEVA SINGAPORE - http://www.mas.gov.sg/en/News-and-Publications/Parliamentary-Replies/2012/Reply-to-Parliamentary-Question-on-Gold-Trading-Schemes.aspx

Response by Mr Tharman Shanmugaratnam, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister in Charge of MAS.

"5. However, regardless of whether these activities are regulated, it is an offence under the law to operate a fraudulent or deceptive scheme. As Members know, some of the operators offering gold buy-back schemes are currently under investigation by the Commercial Affairs Department (CAD). If there is evidence of fraud or other breaches of the law, CAD will take firm and appropriate action".

There you go folks. Regardless of whether these activities are regulated, it is AN OFFENCE under the law TO OPERATE A FRAUDULENT OR DECEPTIVE SCHEME. So folks, will GM2 be any difference from GS? Time will tell!

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-17 15:35 | Report Abuse

As separate attachment to client’s purchase, Genneva also extends discretionary – a) monthly ‘Hibah’ or gift averaging 1.5 to 2.2% over 3 to 6 month period – or 18 to 26.4% if annualised, and b) outright sellback option at purchase cost at the end of Hibah period – both are commitment each client must acknowledge and is discretionary and can be withdrawn by the company at anytime. Since my first purchase of gold in May 2011 however, Genneva has never failed to honour both these commitment.

If Genneva pays 1.5 to 2.0% monthly Hibah, or 18-24% per annum under existing business model and trading platform of creating market liquidity and sharing and distributing profits along the way with participating clients, I personally believe that this business can be sustained for at least another 3 to 5 years.


I saw an elevated transaction risk however, each time Genneva promoted higher than average Hibah of up to 3% – gold delivery took longer than usual triggering Gharraror uncertainty forcing Majlis Fatwa’s edict on Genneva as non-syariah compliant and unsolicited complaints from PPIM which triggered and precipitated into an outright mass sellback from majority Muslim clients sometime in August and September.

I would have fully supported this promotion if used sparingly based on limited stock and ready for delivery ex stock basis or over predetermined and mutually agreed date.

I congratulate Genneva’s ability to weather the sellback storm and attribute it to management prowess in gold trading and cashflow juggling and promotion timing, but thanks also to vintage gold and a stroke of luck when prices actually turned bullish heading into the month of October.

Despite the above episode, I see more frequent promotion offering beyond average Hibah of up to maximum 3.0% (36.0% per annum) as controversial, ‘eye popping and attention grabbing’, and hence very inviting for a BNM action.

It is most unfortunate however that BNM has to force a shutdown in Genneva in the name of pre-emptive and prudential measure on amongst others, suspicion of business sustainability as an ongoing concern.

I would rather see Genneva itself determine its own fate and choose its own ‘day of reckoning’ which I believe is possible the moment it declares inability to pay discretionary Hibah and discretionary purchase of sellback gold from its clients. Clients lesson from this is already learnt following BNM’s forced suspension of Genneva i.e. ‘at least the client has physical and valuable gold in hand’.

Read more here: http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/opinion/2012/10/17/gold-trading-a-clients-experience/

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-18 21:30 | Report Abuse

Latest From BNM 18/10/12

Orders have also been issued to the directors and key personnel of the companies concerned to declare their assets in Malaysia and overseas, including those of their spouses and proxies.

These investigations have been accorded priority and all the necessary resources are being mobilised by the relevant enforcement agencies to expedite this process. This is to bring this investigation to the earliest conclusion.

Actions will be taken on those companies that offer fraudulent and deceptive financial or interest schemes that promise high monthly returns which are funded from future investors and not from gold trading activities or any other legitimate business activities.

Read here: http://www.bnm.gov.my/index.php?ch=en_press&pg=en_press_all&ac=2681

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-19 11:29 | Report Abuse

The lure of promised paybacks

If you leave the ‘loan’ with Genneva for the next 12 months, they will pay out 24 % in total back to you with an additional 12 % to the consultants who fit into the pyramid that successfully referred you to them. That totals 36 % payback for each subsequent year.

If we assume the company purchases gold bullion at the prevailing market rates, they will still stand to lose 6 % for every such ‘loan’ made to them – 100 % cost of gold + 30 % mark-up – 36% interest equals -6 %.

And so the question is how or what Genneva needs to do to make up for the yearly loss of 6 %. By then their total ‘loan’ intakes had amounted to RM 3 billion, which means the interest payouts were working out to RM 180 million annually. That’s where Genneva resorted to a combination of scams going by the names of ‘Factional Scam,’ ‘Ponzi Scam’ and something as dubiously named as ‘Tai Chi Tactic.’

To elevate Genneva to the ‘big boy’ stakes, they went on a huge recruitment and exposure campaign, not only sponsoring sporting events but also bought out Datok-ship titles from Indonesia and/or Brunei, hosted lavish annual dinners, extravagant lucky draws, glittering conferences and seminars. Once they have attained the maximum requirement amount of investment, the second stage of their plan kicked in – that’s where the real game began.


One scam after another

‘Factional Scam’ begins with the purity of the gold bullions downgraded over time. At RM 200 per gram for 99.99 gold, each 100 grams will cost RM 20,000, which is what the first gold bullions are worth. By reducing the purity to 95 %, the worth of gold would drop to RM 19,000 although you will still be paying RM 23,000, because of the stipulated 30 % mark-up.

In case they got into trouble down the line, the directors of Genneva decided to form their own NGO and called it Gold Bullion Association of Malaysia (GBAM). Their task is to issue certification and quality assurance in case anyone amongst the public decides they want the gold certified and checked for quality.

The problem at this stage is that nowhere in Malaysia is gold regulated and therefore no one could actually say they were doing anything wrong or illegal even if anyone were to find the gold to be lacking in actual quality. But to ensure that the whole scenario was legitimate in order to buy public confidence, GBAM was established purely to hoodwink everyone into believing them entirely. In other words they had their backs covered to prevent the scam from surfacing.

Next came the ‘Ponzi Scam.’ This is where Genneva managed their own little bubble economy. Over time, the directors knew that after they have cooked their books, they had to hide them in order to ‘honour’ the investors with their interest payments.

However since they really don’t have the RM 180 million to do so, they decided to issue ‘coupons’ for their gold, which stated that upon the expiry of the three-month contract signed with Genneva, you the investor will receive the gold bullion as promised.

But hardly a few days thereafter, they tell you that you need to return the gold bullion to facilitate the renewal of the contract in which case then you are required to wait a further two months or so before you could even get your hands on a supposedly ‘new’ bullion.

Read more here: The Shameful Scam Story of Genneva http://www.investlah.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=261e6911480fdeb873a1e13fe28945e0&topic=48522.msg942981#msg942981