Posted by Hustle > 2012-10-11 14:55 | Report Abuse

This have to observe our local Gold Smith have do promotion for their jewelry product or not.If BNM already sold large amount of bar to Gold smith with lower price.Then Gold discount war will be start,since suddenly have lots of physical Gold flow into the local market.

Posted by liverpool9 > 2012-10-11 15:08 | Report Abuse

At least this modus operandi using GOLD....there is swiftlet etc...ever heard of soft shell crab!!!

Buying blocks of apartments (small compartment) for rearing soft shell crab....real crabby!!He...hee

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-11 15:16 | Report Abuse

Genneva 1st generation was similarly raided in 2009 and until today not yet fully resolved, with RM47 million missing.

Now the questions:
1. Was GM1 found far short of the gold and the cash when raided some years back?
2. Was not Bestino found to have been short of RM411,000,000 belonging to 6,700+ investors when raided some years back?

So folks, you think GM2 will be any different? Hahahahahahahah!!

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-11 15:34 | Report Abuse

The prediction on the collapse of Geneva House now turned into reality. See the headlines in printed & social media showing the con-sultants & clients all screaming "FOUL! MURDER! ETC" against BNM.

In fact, the victims' rage should be directed to the GM2 operators and all their lying con-sultants!

It is also alarming to note that there are now even more copycat schemes which are operating openly in Malaysia.

So folks, be smart and recognize the warning signs.

Posted by KC Loh > 2012-10-11 15:37 | Report Abuse

Bullbear, here also you can make money ar? how? hahahahaha

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-11 16:00 | Report Abuse

Hahahahahahahah!! No money to be make here loh. Since early last year few of my frenz asking me to buy this gold loh ....... bunch of greedy frenz ......... said good investment loh & laughing all the way to the bank loh ........ Told them not to touch this scheme loh ........ well serve them right!!

Well folks, who have the last laugh now? Wakakakakakakakakakakakakak!!

Posted by KC Loh > 2012-10-11 16:06 | Report Abuse

i see... i thought you are wasting energy here! LOL

and welcome back to AirAsia thread. at least there you can make money by bitching! hehehehehe

Posted by lotsofmoney > 2012-10-11 16:19 | Report Abuse

If anybody who had bet against the company will now be making money !

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-11 16:21 | Report Abuse

Well, not wasting energy loh ........ just adding salt to their injury mah ...... Wakakakakakakakak!!

Posted by KC Loh > 2012-10-11 16:31 | Report Abuse

hehehe ok bullbear..... got your point! hahahaha

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 08:42 | Report Abuse

The great ponzi raid spreading to Singapore? Bad news indeed for ponzi consultants and supporters. Now folks, who’s stupid or brave enough to put fresh money in these scams?

Hahahahahahahahahahah~!!

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 08:53 | Report Abuse

248 posts


Posted by BullBear > Oct 12, 2012 08:52 AM | Report Abuse X

Based on information received by BNM, below is the list of known companies and websites which are not authorised nor approved under the relevant laws and regulations administered by BNM:

Public Gold Sdn Bhd - Date Added to Alert List on 27/09/2012. View here: http://www.bnm.gov.my/documents/2012/Financial_Consumer_Alert_listEN_Sept.pdf

Careful now, folks!

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 09:23 | Report Abuse

Comment by Salahuddin Al-Ayyubi

1. The Management Team of Genneva Malaysia must be held liable for all this mess. Clients should direct their anger, take legal action for compensation on their loss of capital from the Management Team and Consultants who may have misled them and not giving them full disclosure on the undercurrent problems that started to surface many months before the BNM raid, such as being non-compliant to Syariah (yes since October 2011) and being non-compliant to BAFIA, long delay of purchased gold bars' delivery)

2. Despite reminders by concerned consultants to remove the word "Syariah" from the Genneva Malaysia's official website (after National Fatwa Council decided that GMSB's gold trading business is not syariah-compliant on 11th of July 2012) no swift action was taken by the Management Team to rectify the issue.

3. The website was shut down temporarily and amended ONLY after PPIM lodged a police report unto Genneva Malaysia for misleading the public on being syariah-compliant thus making the HIBAH (income generated) non-syariah too.

4. Concerned consultants have even asked the Management Team, why is it that the Trust Account used to receive monies from clients has NEVER BEEN setup properly with independent third party Corporate Trustee governed by Trustee Act 1949 be appointed as custodian to this Trust Account? And this too has fallen on deaf ears.

5. The delivery of purchased gold bars to clients have been delayed from 7 days to 14 days to 21 days and towards the end to close to 30 days. Anybody with right mind should be worried about this.... but since the main objective of buying this mark-up gold bars is not really the gold bars, but the HIBAH, clients do not mind at all with this delay.

Any victims here who care to share their views on this scheme?

Posted by shirley1 > 2012-10-12 09:31 | Report Abuse

I keep my gold in my safe deposit box.

Posted by shirley1 > 2012-10-12 09:34 | Report Abuse

Here no opportunity la, can create some opportunity somewhere ? But seriously you got buy or not that gold ?

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 09:41 | Report Abuse

Genneva Disgruntled Customer Group comment:-

Consultant is asking their investors not to make police report because they will fall in the tricks of Bank Negara. That is not true.

If the investor lodge a police report, the consultant will be implicated to the case thus:

Consultants could be charge the following under Malaysia Penal Code:
Section 120A: Criminal Conspiracy
Section 267: Making or selling false weights or measure
Section 415: Cheating
These charges carry 5-7 years imprisonment and fine

Under the Contract Law of Malaysia, Consultant can be sue for:
Section 16: Undue Influence
Section 17: Fraud
Section 18: Void Agreement
These cases where consultants can be made personally liable for the lost of money due to the scam of Genneva as they are also one of them with financial gain by selling you the scheme.

So folks, if you are one of the victim care to share your opinion on this?

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 09:55 | Report Abuse

Genneva Disgruntled Customer Group comment:-

Why Genneva consultant are still supporting Genneva?

Very simple, cause all their clients are their friends and relative. If they found out that the consultant has drag them in to a scam, they will be very unforgiving.

The only thing these consultant can do now is to promote that Bank Negara rob their money, steal their wealth and prevent them from making anymore money.

All this is to get themselves out of the hot soup between their friends and relative they have help con to get the 1% commission each month.

To those victims, ask youself.....If you found out this is truly a scam, would you not force the consultant to pay you back your investment?


Hahahahahahahha!!......No doubt about it most of them still (CONsultants & investors)utterly delusional, irrational and in denial. That explain why they are an easy prey!! Heheheheheheheh!!

Posted by Lim Rachel May Wan > 2012-10-12 09:58 | Report Abuse

read d news that umno guys came out 2 defend GM !

Posted by liverpool9 > 2012-10-12 09:59 | Report Abuse

We Malaysia very gullible lah.....Very nice/good people.....PRC beggars also can cari makan in Malaysia. Did they came to Malaysia via old junk like our forefather?????? more like Air Asia, Mas or China Southern!!!! This scam will not be the end as long as there is greed..

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 10:17 | Report Abuse

1. If Genneva collects RM10 - they pay RM2 for hibah, RM1 for agent's commission and operation costs, RM5 they masuk pocket leaving only RM2 in cash/assets.

2. Thats why the Con-sultans have been pressuring new customers with all kind of ridiculous promotions and some urging them even to take personal bank loans to purchase this fraudulent scheme.

3. More and more new purchasers are needed to enable their ponzi pyramid to survive.

So folks, who has the last laugh now? Wakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakak!!

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 10:36 | Report Abuse

1. These CON-sultans know that they are the ones that have absolutely DESTROYED the lives of 60,000 customers which includes old uncles and aunties, pakcik and makcik, retirees and pensioners, sick cancer, kidney,etc patients, single mothers, widows etc., NOT BNM or the authorities.

2. Well I hope these CONs can sleep well after reality bites. The courts and authorities do not act or decide based upon the so-called human interest stories (sob sob stories). They look for facts and solid evidence, accounting records, financial statements, assets, liabilities, profits, payments etc.

3. Purchasers should now be very wary and cautious of people who act like they are saving the world by supporting gold scammers. Yes, BEWARE OF FALSE MESSIAHS.

Wakakakakakakakakakakakakakakakak!!

Posted by shirley1 > 2012-10-12 13:08 | Report Abuse

saw that in the news too, like you say pensioners, retires, patients, cancer, kidney lost their money here.. imagine what are they going to do or live, some of them are old or sick, maybe without children taking care of them.... they have no jobs, just expect a bit higher return than bank FD for living..

frankly lor, if that happen to you next time, I don't think is funny lor, if the authority not doing something.

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 14:04 | Report Abuse

1. The Madoff family gained unusual access to Washington's lawmakers and regulators through the industry's top trade group. Madoff offered steady returns to his clientele. Some Madoff investors were wary of removing their money from his fund, in case they could not get back in later. An unnamed investor remarked, "The returns were just amazing and we trusted this guy for decades — if you wanted to take money out, you always got your check in a few days. That’s why we were all so stunned.

2. Well folks, the above sound familiar ....... Is Geneva using influential people to decieve & lure purchasers from their real business activity? BNM has raided the goldcos and the truth will prevail soon.

For the time being folks, the victims will have to live with the pain that GM2 caused them. It's going to hurt them for the rest of their lives. An expensive lesson learned? Hahahahahahahah!!

Posted by shirley1 > 2012-10-12 14:47 | Report Abuse

Congratulation bullear.... you have all the necessary attributes to be a successful opportunist and maybe even conman that cheat old people... heartless and living without emotional. Hahahaha.. salute you.. Hahahaha

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 14:53 | Report Abuse

Part 1

What the newspapers didn't mention on Genneva -> Financial Ruin for some.

The newspapers only mentioned that investors will lose a source of monthly revenue, and also that they stand to lose the 20%-30% markup they paid for their purchased gold.

So, someone who had RM1,000,000 in the bank, and bought RM800,000 worth of gold with it stands to lose RM200,000, right? Not good, but still survivable, right? Not for some.

For some, the scenario is much MUCH worse, thanks to many Genneva clients taking stupid advice from the Genneva agents to "leverage" their income.

Because the suggested method was through Islamic Banking quasi loans with the gold as collateral. Let me give an example of what happens using the same above ex-millionaire.

........cont Part 2

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 15:03 | Report Abuse

Part 2

Example: Bob starts with RM1,000,000.
He goes to Genneva, pays RM1m, gets 800k worth of gold. Genneva promises him an income stream of 2% ie RM20k per month. They promise to buy the gold back at RM1m upon maturity.

NOW, under his agent's advice, he goes to Al-Rajhi bank and gets an "Islamic loan", which is similiar to a normal loan but with worse terms. Basically, they take the 800k worth of gold as collateral, and give him 75% on it, RM600,000. BUT, the interest (they call it a protection fee for storing the gold) is based on the 800k, and they charge 1% per month!

So, now Bob has RM600k in his pocket, 600k debt, and 800k being held as collateral. The 800k is an asset, but a quasi asset, as people who have failed to service their loans would know!

He also has a promise from Genneva that they will buy his 800k gold for RM1m. He also has incoming 20k per month from Genneva and -8k a month from Al-Rajhi. Sounds good so far, right?

.....cont Part 3

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 15:25 | Report Abuse

Part 3

So Bob follows his agent's advice and further "leverages" himself. He goes to Genneva, gives them 600k, and gets back 480k worth of gold. He goes to Al-Rajhi (AR) and gives gold, gets 360k.

Current Status:
360k in pocket, 960k debt, 1280k gold held as collateral (gc) and an option to sell the gold back (goldoption) for RM1.6m.
Income stream 32k Genneva, -12.8k Al Rajhi.

He does it again.
-RM360k, + 288k gold.
-288k gold, + RM216k.

Status:
RM216 pocket, RM1.176m debt, 1.568m gc, goldoption 1.96m.
Income 39.8k Genneva, -15.68k AR

Let's stop here even though this could continue a few more rounds.

Anyhow, *IF* Genneva honors the agreement, at the end of 1 year, Bob redeems everything, and his status is now:
1.960m (since he sells the gold, the 1.568m no longer comes into play)+216k-1176k +(39.8k x 12) - (15.68k x 12)
=RM 1m (his initial bank account) +477.6k -188.16k(the income streams)
=RM 1,289,440.

Bob makes a nice 29% profit in one year! He is happy!

........cont Part 4

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 15:45 | Report Abuse

Part 4

BUT

If Genneva does not honor the agreement? For example, if the company ceased operations? Bob's status BEFORE HE GOES TO REDEEM HIS GOLD FROM AR is:

Rm216k - (15.68k x 12 he has had to pay AR the monthly interest/ protection fee still!)

= 27.84k in his pocket!

And now, there are 2 possibilities at this point, actually. Cause in case you didn't notice, Bob only has RM27.84k in his pocket, and his debt is RM1176k. He can't get back his collateral unless he finds someone to lend him the money to get back his collateral!

Case A, someone lends the money to Bob:
Bob redeems his loan, get's back his gold.
Bob now has 27.84k in his pocket, RM1.176k debt to whoever gave him this new loan, and he has RM1.568k worth of gold.
He now has to figure out what to do with that gold!

If he manages to sell it for RM1.568k, his situation is not so bad.... that means that after squaring his debt, he now has 1568-1176+27.84= 419.84k. This is a pretty bad drop, from RM1m, but Bob can still survive it.

However, if gold price has dropped, OR if he can only sell his gold for a lower price (VERY likely, gold shops and banks and other people who buy gold will take their share of the profit), Bob will lose even more. If he loses 10% when selling the gold, he now has 263k. If he loses 20%, he only has RM106k. Bob is now looking at some VERY serious lifestyle changes if he lost 90% of his savings.

......cont Part 5

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 15:55 | Report Abuse

Part 5

How about Case B, where Bob cannot get anyone to lend him money?

Well, his situation is then that he has 27,84k in his pocket, and he's completely at the mercy of Al-Rajhi bank! I have no idea what happens in the case of default in this scenario, I need an expert in Islamic Banking Syariah law to explain this scenario to me.

But as far as I know, AR is still holding onto the gold, and therefore they are still charging him 15,680 per month as protection money, so AFAIK, Bob goes bankrupt in 2 months...

And don't get me started on the people who didn't have RM1m in the first place, like Bob above (Part 2).

I've heard of plenty of people who took out loans to buy their initial "investment" in the first place... those people are now in EVEN WORSE TROUBLE than Bob in scenario B... they are ALREADY bankrupt, and have loan payments that they CANNOT MEET.

Makes the 20%-30% losses described in the newspaper look absolutely pleasant by comparison, doesn't it?

.....The End....from The Angry Investor

There you are folks! Anyone here in this type of scenario? Care to share? Heheheheheh!!

Posted by andy118 > 2012-10-12 15:59 | Report Abuse

Good write up. Thanks

Posted by Hustle > 2012-10-12 16:04 | Report Abuse

Somehow, Bob forget to invest apple to apple style,if Bob establish a 1M'sia Sdn Bhd with RM1 capital and do a bank loan to invest Gold,he will be treat as an emperor by the bank now.Since,bear a small debt is my problem,bear a big debt is not my problem anymore..........hehehe

Posted by andy118 > 2012-10-12 16:07 | Report Abuse

Bob will still kena because he will have to do a bank guarantee unless he got someone to do the guaranteeing.

Posted by Hustle > 2012-10-12 16:09 | Report Abuse

Bank still can packaging all the Gen Gold and sell as AAA bond to public as compensation for Bob debt.

Posted by shirley1 > 2012-10-12 16:13 | Report Abuse

hahaha bullbear, you are really good, know how to calculate. salute you for making big money !! Congralution to you again !!

you mean there is important ppl involve or the bank, how come the authority never take action earlier. those rich one kena because they are greedy and who care.

unfortunate for all the retirees, pensioners, sick cancer, patients, single mother, windows etc. believe not all of them graduate from Harvard or business school lor ? don't have 1 million to invest lor, maybe dont understand what are you talking.

whatever we do, or whoever is the agent, don't cheat old poor ppl money.

Posted by Hustle > 2012-10-12 16:18 | Report Abuse

So please remember do not switch to bond market even it is a crisis.Equity still have his trustee honor but bond is only use money to buy debt and definitely you cannot spread red pain if he don't want to pay back his debt.

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 16:20 | Report Abuse

I am very happy BNM took this action not because I am jealous that these fools are making tons of returns a month, it because it protrays human psychology in GREED, FEAR & SELF DECEPTION!

Serve them right!! Hahahahahahahahah!!

Posted by jtpc2006 > 2012-10-12 16:21 | Report Abuse

good analgoy Bullbear, it's devastating to the investors, what can the govt do to get their money back? genneva should not have been allowed to operate for such a long time, so much damage done!

Posted by Hustle > 2012-10-12 16:23 | Report Abuse

What will BNM do with the Gold bar since it is Emas Haram?

Posted by shirley1 > 2012-10-12 16:26 | Report Abuse

Bullbear, can you explain those that does not have 1 million to invest in this scheme one ? wish to find out how they get the 1 million to invest ?

if a retiree with no income, and not much savings.. will the bank loan them 1 million ?

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 16:27 | Report Abuse

Even if Genneva ride out of this storm, I bet most of the so call "investors" (but you can't call them investors cause its not an investment company, its a trading company, more likely I label them as punters), will get out of it as soon as possible.

In Ponzi scheme, if all layers trying to get out, it disastrous. Ask youself folks, you think Genneva has the cash to buy back all gold?

I bet even if 20% of their "punters" want to sell back the gold, they will go bust. Hahahahahahahahahah!!

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 16:57 | Report Abuse

Well Shirley1, to those victims no one put a gun at their head to force them to buy. The only thing to do now is to brace themselves for the consequences. In fact, the victims' rage should be directed to the GM2 operators and all their lying con-sultants!

Folks, if people do not learn from history, they will repeat history & therefore will become HISTORY(Bestino+Samudra JV+GM1+GM2=Greed)!!.....Hahahahahahahah!!

As such it's going to hurt them for the rest of their lives. An expensive lesson learned indeed!!.......Wakakakakakakakak!!

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 21:22 | Report Abuse

Interesting Points from the Latest statement from BNM dated 10/10/12 :-
# Schemes are believed to be NOT SUSTAINABLE to provide the promised high MONTHLY RETURNS, nor would they be able to provide the BUY BACK GUARANTEE of gold.

# The returns promised are NOT FUNDED through gold trading, but from the MONIES INVESTED into such schemes.

# The amount of ASSETS & MONIES held by these companies DO NOT COMMENSURATE with the amount collected from their investors.

# Prior to the joint raid these companies have DELAYED IN RETURNING gold or money to the investors within the stipulated time AS PROMISED.

Folks, I was approached early last year but have declined the offer to invest with this goldco. My reason the returns are too good to be true. Rule of Thump – Something too good to be true, I bet it’s a scam!

From the above statement by BNM, I do believe there will be not enough gold left to distribute fairly amongst those waiting for theirs’.

Posted by transformer123 > 2012-10-12 21:34 | Report Abuse

Invested on such scheme is deemed to be a total loss...
Unlike shares, still can cut loss unless company being classified under pn17...
If an investor or trader is prefer to receive dividend, a blue chip shares is safe to place on like digi, Telekom, Maybank, and the business is solid and proven regardless of financial crisis...
Gold, is only good when more paper money is issued....however, you cannot carry the gold car for example 100kg gold bar....
Second, it is a very illiquid asset... Like Geneva Consultant always claimed ready buyer and ready seller... It is like shares, there must be a demand and supply...
Will the goldsmith in the country really accept the go,d bar? Me asked tomei, they don't acknowledge the gold bar issued by Geneva...also, goldsmith shop in my hometown...
So?... Can the gold bar provide you food when you hungry? When you thirst? When you need a warmth or shelter?
I did ask a constant from Geneva if I wish to invest RM10 million, will Geneva guaranteed back the capital to me upon maturity? He said to me I don't know and depends the situation...what? What situation. HE CANNOT PROVIDE ME AN ANSWER...
one common character I found and discovered from Geneva consultant, they are greedy on the commission only...they don't check, study, research and question more before jump into the company....
Well, pray hard investor can claim back their money ...
Geneva must responsible and so do the Con..sultans...

Posted by alexisvics > 2012-10-12 21:59 | Report Abuse

My friend in Sabah invested RM300,000 GOLD in one of the gold scheme. She was given a receipt only, not even any gold bar. She was promised return of RM600,000. But I think this to good to be true.

Posted by chongkonghui > 2012-10-12 22:12 | Report Abuse

Blame no one but own greed. It has absolutely nothing to do with education background.

Posted by Emzette > 2012-10-12 22:16 | Report Abuse

sorry for intruding. Anybody knows if Public Gold might suffer the same fate?

Posted by chleong > 2012-10-12 22:31 | Report Abuse

hi! bullbear based on your work out in part 3, with RM216K pocket money in case *IF* Genneva honors the agreement, at the end of 1 year, my question is how could Bob redeems the ALL the GOLD from Al-Rajhi. maybe he can redeem it with 216k pocket minus 34.56k annum AR % plus "20.16k borrowing from friend" to repay 288K debt incurred. he can redeem his last bought gold "3rd round from Genneva for 360k plus 86.4K annum income (216k + 86.4k - 34.56k - 288k). in order "reclaim his invested money" he needs to borrow 2 more round from friends to reverse the whole thing.... as i ask this question i get the answer, he too is earning "2% monthly HIBAH" from the 2 earlier invested gold invested with Genneva, he may not need to borrow 20.16K from friends. but then the 1st bought GOLD will expired around 3 mths or 6 mths depends on contract. a bit confuse here. anywhere thank you for clarification. i was lucky that i didn't join bcos i find it hard to justify how Genneva make money to pay for 2% hibah,is not my style to implicate my surrounding friends, i question them a few time, it seems no one can give good reasonable answer, ponzi perhaps

Posted by shirley1 > 2012-10-12 22:32 | Report Abuse

Chongkonghui you are wrong, education is important. before any newbies want to trade or invest, the must be educated first. After educated, they still don't listen then only you can say them greed.

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 22:40 | Report Abuse

Emzette......Based on information received by BNM, below is the list of known companies and websites which are not authorised nor approved under the relevant laws and regulations administered by BNM. Public Gold at no.62 please view here: http://www.bnm.gov.my/documents/2012/Financial_Consumer_Alert_listEN_Sept.pdf

Posted by BullBear > 2012-10-12 22:55 | Report Abuse

Geneva Singapore - There was no notice as to when the office would re-open. Retiree B. Tang, 58, an investor, was spotted outside the deserted Genneva office at Orchard Towers yesterday afternoon.

He declined to reveal how much he had invested, but he said he had received about $1,000 every month for the past three months. He had invested in May. But Monday's raid has put a stop to these payouts.

Said Mr Tang: "I KNEW this was a risky scheme. On hindsight, it was a bit STUPID. Thankfully I can deal with this loss of money. I still own a home. It was money that I was willing to invest and lose".

Mr Tang added he was not going to take legal action as he saw no point in it.

What about Geneva Malaysia? The office still open folks? Hahahahahaha!!