Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-11-22 00:20 | Report Abuse

@observatory There is a 10% limit to share buyback per year. No doubt the theoretical ex-price after the 20 sen dividend is going to be 20 sen lower, but this implies a further share price discount to NAV. Based on current price of 2.45 against 3.76 NAV, the price/book ratio is 0.65 cum dividend . Applying the same ratio to the ex-dividend NAV of 3.56 will give a price of 2.31, not 2.25, i.e. if the returned cash is no longer subject to the discount, At 2.25 ex-dividend, the price/book ratio drops further to 0.63, which is counter-intuitive, i.e. paying a dividend will widen the discount further.

Posted by observatory > 2021-11-22 02:05 | Report Abuse

@dumbMoney, thanks for pointing out the 10% limit on share buyback per year. I've overlooked.

Let me try to understand the dividend distribution calculation.

As of last quarter end the cash balance is RM210.76 million or about RM1.51 sen per share. Assume the cash value remains unchanged. Also further assume the scenario where dividend distribution is the full RM1.51 cash instead of just 20 sen. Then the NAV will be reduced from RM3.76 - RM1.51 = RM2.25.

When shareholders receive the RM1.51 cash, it will be at full value.

To do better than the RM2.45 market price today, the ex-dividend share price should be equal or higher than RM2.45 - RM1.51 (cash received as dividend) = RM0.94.

When if market price is reaches RM0.94, the NAV discount will be as wide as 1 - 0.94/ 2.25 = 58%.

Given current NAV discount is "only" 30+%, I suppose the discount will not go as deep as 58%? As long as the ex-dividend discount is less than 58%, in my thinking it will be represents an improvement over today situation.

Another way to look at the current NAV discount of 30+% is this. Today the market may impose a steeper discount on the share investment portion of NAV. But it also imposes a discount on the cash portion of NAV -- may be lesser discount, but there is still a discount nonetheless.

The cash portion of the discount can be completely eliminated if the cash is given back to shareholders. In that sense the overall discount will reduce through dividend distribution.

Just my way of looking at the situation. But I agree share buyback can be an efficient way to reduce discount because management can target the purchase price that helps to close the gap.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-11-22 10:53 | Report Abuse

For comparison, when the only other listed closed end fund Amanah Millenia Fund went into voluntary liquidation, the NAV was 1.156 against a share price of $0.885, a price/book ratio of 0.77.Its shareholders have a much lower pain threshold. When property trust AHP2 went into voluntary liquidation, its last published NAV was $0.8888 against market price of around 0.51, a price/book ratio of only 0.51. Because its properties got a better realised price when finally sold, the total distribution was around $1, so investors doubled their money with the move.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-11-22 16:58 | Report Abuse

Sorry, typo in the above AHP2 price/book rato. It should be 0.57 instead of 0.51.

Posted by observatory > 2021-11-22 20:18 | Report Abuse

@dumpMoney, thank you for the useful reference!

Posted by freedomfund > 2021-11-22 22:11 | Report Abuse

What I am doing is to bring RATIONALITY to this counter.

I am a considered a long term holder of iCap, entered around 8 yrs ago at around price of RM2.30. Just before the div announcement a few days ago, iCap traded at 2.35. Tell me, is this return rate of 0.27% pa rational? Other than a 9sen div years ago, it is only a 5 sen gross gain. Over 8 years!

But to be fair, NAV has performed with some reasonable return (compared to the many normal equity funds out there). Hence, the problem is the NAV-mkt price big gap.

Why? New investors will not come in because when they see
a) the big gap always there for years
b) half of the funds are held in cash for over 8 years, they will NOT buy since they want reasonably fuller exposures to equities.

Old investors can only trade among ourselves and after being "educated" over and over again by the doctrine of "margin of safety", we also will NOT buy close to NAV because of this margin of safety in mind. Hence, the big GAP.

To close this GAP, only doable solution is to push for fund closure. Yes, many technical obstacles there but not impossible. The very act of pushing for fund closure will close the GAP because new investors will come in to arbitrage. Can you see it? The act itself it GOOD enough.

Therefore I need all of you to spread the words that we are working to close this fund. Do it for your own benefit!

Posted by Thirai Thiraviam > 2021-11-23 09:13 | Report Abuse

@freedomfund - if you were a value investor, you'd have bought whenever the price dipped to near or below RM2.00. That's what I did. I first bought ICAP in 2010, when it was trading at around RM2.10. I also bought a couple of months ago when it was slightly over RM2.20. But my overall cost per share is near RM1.90, I think. Not great. But not bad, either.

Plus, many stocks in Bursa are undervalued today. And, given our predilection, we are gravitated towards such stocks and repelled by stocks that are selling at a premium.

Also, let's not forget that the KLCI index itself has not gone anywhere in the last 10 years!

Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-11-23 11:18 | Report Abuse

@freedomfund, please check your I3 Messenger app for message.

Posted by RealValueInvestor > 2021-11-27 21:11 | Report Abuse

From Berkshire Hathaway Annual Report 2020:

Operating earnings are what count most, even during periods when they are not the largest item in our GAAP total. Our focus at Berkshire is both to increase this segment of our income and to acquire large and favorably-situated businesses. Last year, however, we met neither goal: Berkshire made no sizable acquisitions and operating earnings fell 9%. We did, though, increase Berkshire’s per-share intrinsic value by both retaining earnings and repurchasing about 5% of our shares.

The REAL Warren Buffet buying back shares in his Company while ICAP's equivalent sits on his hands and a huge pile of cash!

Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-11-28 03:26 | Report Abuse

@RealValueInvestor - correction, the Real Warren Buffet .......while ICAP's wannabe, not equivalent........Equivalent would put him in the same league!

Posted by JohnDough > 2021-11-28 13:07 | Report Abuse

“In the 2021 virtual AGM, Tan Teng Boo explained to the hundreds of attending share owners that while he manages the NAV of ICAP, the share or market price of ICAP is determined by its demand and supply, which are under the control of the share owners.

In such a case, the behavior of share owners, especially large ones that own 20%, is fundamentally important in determining the demand and supply of ICAP shares, which will then influence its share or market price and hence its NAV discount or premium.

When you own 20% of any listed company, you can swing the share price whichever way you want.”


i Capital Newsletter Volume 33 Number 15

Posted by stockraider > 2021-11-28 13:18 | Report Abuse

That is true mah!

Thats why very important to let major shareholders to have a big say to protect its interest mah!

Having said this....they is nothing to stop...TTB & associates to acquire a big share position in ICAP mah!

It is fair democratic process for shareholders loh!


Posted by JohnDough > Nov 28, 2021 1:07 PM | Report Abuse

“In the 2021 virtual AGM, Tan Teng Boo explained to the hundreds of attending share owners that while he manages the NAV of ICAP, the share or market price of ICAP is determined by its demand and supply, which are under the control of the share owners.

In such a case, the behavior of share owners, especially large ones that own 20%, is fundamentally important in determining the demand and supply of ICAP shares, which will then influence its share or market price and hence its NAV discount or premium.

When you own 20% of any listed company, you can swing the share price whichever way you want.”


i Capital Newsletter Volume 33 Number 15

Posted by ahbah > 2021-11-28 13:22 | Report Abuse

How much is WB's gaji ?

How much is ttb's gaji ?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-11-28 20:20 | Report Abuse

WB is first and foremost, the major shareholder of BH, so he is on the same page as both the CEO and shareowner, whereas TTB is more a hire hand positioned as the CEO than as a shareowner, so there is a conflict of interest between the two positions.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-11-28 20:34 | Report Abuse

COL is still collecting cheap shares at this level, so is in no hurry to push up the share price, as it can continue to collect up to 33% before the mandatory takeover is triggered for parties acting in concert. Even then, it is only at the highest price it paid during the last 6 months, so why should they make things expensive for themselves. The proper takeover defence is to buy back shares in the market to raise the price and make it expensive for COL to build up its position for a possible takeover. So don't expect any share price support from COL and dont't blame them for the low shar price because it is in their interest, which is not to profit from just the share price, but the ultimate liquidation of the company to realise fulll value..

Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-11-29 16:53 | Report Abuse

Judging from the voting results at the recent AGM, COL only needs another 10% shares to be a serious threat to management, and short of a court injunction, the way is clear for them to do that now after the court threw out the judicial review application. Once institutional investors can see the distinct possibility of a liquidation, they will pile in to do risk arbitrage and the tide will turn because of their buying power. The question to ask is, why are so called long term investors selling out at this price to COL?

Posted by RealValueInvestor > 2021-11-29 17:29 | Report Abuse

JohnDough The Company itself can take part in the market and buy its own shares. Like Buffet's Berkshire Hathaway did and DOES AND like Scottish Mortgage did and DOES!! TTB wants shareholders to think that he can do nothing to reduce the discount. That is NOT true. He is tasked by the board with dealing with the discount but does nothing because to do so, by means of tender offers and/or buybacks would reduce the size of ICAP and thereby his fees.

By the way why ARE two fees paid to TTB's companies for doing one job. They add up to over 1.4% a year. Scottish Mortgage, pays under 0.3%. Berkshire Hathaway will pay even less.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-11-29 23:27 | Report Abuse

This is the list of 30 largest shareholders of Amanah Small Cap Fund just before its voluntary liquidation; Once the funds smell blood in the water, they will come circling. 30 LARGEST ACCOUNT HOLDERS
Name of shareholders Shareholdings %
1. Permodalan Nasional Berhad 86,500,000 17.30
2. Citigroup Nominees (Asing) Sdn. Bhd.
[Exempt An For Mellon Bank (Mellon)] 81,095,200 16.22
3. HSBC Nominees (Asing) Sdn. Bhd.
[Exempt An For Royal Bank of Canada (Channel Islands) Limited] 33,034,500 6.61
4. Cartaban Nominees (Asing) Sdn. Bhd.
[Credit Suisse Securities (Europe) Limited for LP Value Limited] 23,522,710 4.70
5. Citigroup Nominees (Asing) Sdn Bhd
[Bear Stearns Securities Corp for the Carrousel Fund Limited] 20,886,900 4.18
6. Employees Provident Fund Board 19,553,280 3.91
7. Cartaban Nominees (Asing) Sdn. Bhd.
[Credit Suisse Securities (Europe) Limited for Value Catalyst Fund Ltd.] 19,432,234 3.89
8. Citigroup Nominees (Asing) Sdn. Bhd.
[Bear Stearns Securities Corp For Bear Stearns International Limited] 18,820,700 3.76 9. Cartaban Nominees (Asing) Sdn Bhd
[Credit Suisse Securities (Europe) Limited for Laxey Investors LP] 13,898,210 2.78
10. Cartaban Nominees (Asing) Sdn Bhd
[Credit Suisse Securities (Europe) Limited for National Bank of Canada] 10,231,646 2.05
11. Cartaban Nominees (Asing) Sdn Bhd
[Credit Suisse Securities (Europe) Limited for LP Alternative L.P.] 9,778,200 1.96
12. Citigroup Nominees (Asing) Sdn. Bhd.
Exempt An For Mellon Bank (ABNAMRO Mellon) 9,275,200 1.86
13. Mayban Nominees (Asing) Sdn. Bhd.
[OBS Bank for Lilaram Bharvani Rajan] 7,856,600 1.57
14. Cartaban Nominees (Asing) Sdn. Bhd.
[SSBT Fund SD89 For Government of the Province of Alberta] 7,184,400 1.44
15. DB (Malaysia) Nominees (Asing) Sdn. Bhd.
[Deutsche Bank AG London for QVT Fund LP] 7,176,785 1.44
16. Cartaban Nominees (Asing) Sdn Bhd
[Credit Suisse Securities (Europe) Limited for Laxey Universal Value LP] 6,884,080 1.38
17. Tay Kia Hong & Sons Sdn. Bhd. 6,000,000 1.20
18. HSBC Nominees (Asing) Sdn. Bhd.
[Exempt An For Credit Suisse (SG BR-TST-Asing)] 5,267,000 1.05
19. Cartaban Nominees (Asing) Sdn. Bhd.
[Exempt An For Bank Sarasin-Rabo (Asia) Limited) (AC Client Frgn)] 4,383,800 0.88
20. Tokio Marine Insurans (Malaysia) Berhad 4,088,000 0.82
21. Daiman Development Berhad 4,000,000 0.80
22. Citigroup Nominees (Asing) Sdn. Bhd.
[Bear Stearns Securities Corp For the Carrousel Fund II Limited] 3,723,600 0.74
23. Cartaban Nominees (Asing) Sdn. Bhd.
[Credit Suisse Securities (Europe) Limited for Leaf Limited] 3,446,520 0.69
24. CIMB Investment Bank Berhad
[Exempt An CLR For Kumpulan Wang Amanah Pencen] 2,000,000 0.40
25. Cimsec Nominees (Tempatan) Sdn. Bhd.
[CIMB For Siew Mun Chuang (PB)] 1,730,800 0.35
26. OSK Nominees (Tempatan) Sdn. Bhd.
[Pledged Securities Account for Lo Kok Kee] 1,400,000 0.2 27. Cartaban Nominees (Asing) Sdn. Bhd.
[Credit Suisse Securities (Europe) Limited for Metage Special
Emerging Markets Fund] 1,145,000 0.23
28. Citigroup Nominees (Asing) Sdn. Bhd.
[CGML IPB For Brookdale ITL Partners] 1,003,580 0.20
29. Aseambankers Malaysia Berhad
[CLR (C ) For Kumpulan Wang Amanah Pencen] 1,000,000 0.20
30. RHB Capital Nominees (Tempatan) Sdn. Bhd.
[Pledged Securities Account For Hiew Kat Kee) 919,800 0.18
415,238,745 83.0

Posted by Nepo > 2021-12-01 08:02 | Report Abuse

Only now you know why ttb not share buyback. .during this uncertainty period.. who can guarantee share price not tumble. Bad news is now klse index tumble.

Now ttb can use icap precious cash to collect cheap cheap stocks laying on the ground.

Cash is the only precious item to help you to challenge the perfect storm ahead..

Posted by calvintaneng > 2021-12-01 08:09 |

Post removed.Why?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-12-01 12:32 | Report Abuse

@calvintaneng You need to net off the 1.5% management fee and tax payable on the interest income to arrive at the net returns, if any..

Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-12-01 17:40 | Report Abuse

Basically, the cash is not 'share owner's money, with the fund manager getting the first bite off the interest, leaving just the crumbs for the former.

Posted by JohnDough > 2021-12-05 13:04 | Report Abuse

“One of Nomad’s key competitive advantages will be the aggregate patience of its investors.

We are genuinely investing for the long term (few are!), in undervalued firms run by management teams who may be making decisions the fruits of which may not be apparent for several years to come.

In the near term our results are as likely to be bad as good, but we are confident that in the long run they will prove satisfactory. If Nomad is to have a competitive advantage over our peers this will come from the capital allocation skills of your manager and the patience of our investors.

In the latter we have started well, with no investor turnover since we began and almost no enquiries into performance despite the general decline in market prices. This is very unusual and a huge credit to our investors and implies a similar long-term outlook.

Only by looking further out than the short-term crowd can we expect to beat them. It is for this reason we named Nomad an Investment Partnership and not a fund. The relationship we seek is quite different.”


Nomad Investment Partnership Dec 2002 Letter by Nick Sleep

Posted by stockraider > 2021-12-05 13:07 | Report Abuse

People will not find patience if the investment manager put its substantial assets precious cash on time deposits for more than 6 yrs just to lock in the vested fund manager fees loh!



Posted by JohnDough > Dec 5, 2021 1:04 PM | Report Abuse

“One of Nomad’s key competitive advantages will be the aggregate patience of its investors.

We are genuinely investing for the long term (few are!), in undervalued firms run by management teams who may be making decisions the fruits of which may not be apparent for several years to come.

In the near term our results are as likely to be bad as good, but we are confident that in the long run they will prove satisfactory. If Nomad is to have a competitive advantage over our peers this will come from the capital allocation skills of your manager and the patience of our investors.

In the latter we have started well, with no investor turnover since we began and almost no enquiries into performance despite the general decline in market prices. This is very unusual and a huge credit to our investors and implies a similar long-term outlook.

Only by looking further out than the short-term crowd can we expect to beat them. It is for this reason we named Nomad an Investment Partnership and not a fund. The relationship we seek is quite different.”


Nomad Investment Partnership Dec 2002 Letter by Nick Sleep

Posted by special_situations > 2021-12-11 00:25 | Report Abuse

Don't buy this underperform fund. He invested wrongly into Parkson stock. Lousy stock pick !
Keep telling that he is good but most of oversea fund underperform badly.

Don't listen to him.

Posted by JohnDough > 2021-12-12 13:41 | Report Abuse

“It is the long-term investor, he who most promotes the public interest, who will in practice come in for most criticism, wherever investment funds are managed by committees or boards or banks.

For it is in the essence of his behaviour that he should be eccentric, unconventional and rash in the eyes of average opinion.

If he is successful, that will only confirm the general belief in his rashness; and if in the short run he is unsuccessful, which is very likely, he will not receive much mercy.

Worldly wisdom teaches that it is better for reputation to fail conventionally than to succeed unconventionally.”


The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money – John Maynard Keynes

Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-12-16 04:32 | Report Abuse

TTB announced and made a token purchase of the company's shares just before the AGM at a price of 2.38 and now turned around and sold it at $2.40, which hardly covered trading costs. Is that a head fake to impress shareholders of his confidence in the company before the AGM? With all the millions in fees collected, cannot just hold on to them a bit longer while COL is continuing buying?

Posted by Nepo > 2021-12-16 13:33 | Report Abuse

TTB cunning bought before AGM and dumped after AGM, fox tail reveals..

Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-12-16 16:22 | Report Abuse

@Nepo After TTB bought, the share price was under water until COL came in to buy and pushed up the price, so he quickly unloaded to avoid further losses. Talk about long term share ownership!

Posted by JohnDough > 2021-12-19 16:18 | Report Abuse

“It is still amazing to me that everyone assesses a fund manager on his output, not his process. They don’t admit that of course. But that’s what happens.”


The Investment Fund for Foundations 2005 by Nick Sleep

Posted by cnman53 > 2021-12-19 22:22 | Report Abuse

Nepo and DumbMoney, could the sales be again a mistake in the announcement? If not, it is an outrageous departure from his talk.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-12-20 02:40 | Report Abuse

@vnman53 read these for yourself https://www.bursamalaysia.com/market_information/announcements/company_announcement?keyword=&cat=DRCO&sub_type=&company=5108&mkt=&alph=&sec=&subsec=&dt_ht=&dt_lt=

Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-12-20 02:43 | Report Abuse

If there has been a mistake, would have been corrected by now.

Posted by cnman53 > 2021-12-20 14:52 | Report Abuse

Selling by the fund manager's related party if not himself, will depress the share price further. Again contrary to his talk.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-12-20 17:31 | Report Abuse

The price discount is a reflection of the trust deficit. The timing of the buy just before the AGM is suspicious!

Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-12-23 06:29 | Report Abuse

The previous ex-dividend share price on 17/9/2013 was $2.32. The cum dividend price on 16/12/2021 was $2.34. So the mark to market gains for shareholders for the past 8 years and 3 months is a miserable 2 sen. The NAV for the two dates are $2.92 and $3.64 respectively, for a rough average of $3.28 . The management fee at 1.5% of this amount for 8.25 years = 40.59 sen, or more than 20 times the nominal returns of the shareholders. Think above it,

Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-12-23 06:37 | Report Abuse

TTB sold his shares on the 13th of this month, and announced it on the 15th, then on 17th, the company applied for an interim injunction against further buying by COL. On the 19th, court grants the interim injunction, which means no further buying by COL for the time being, and the possible impact on the market price. Coincidental timing for the sale?

Posted by JohnDough > 2021-12-26 19:17 | Report Abuse

“Investing is all about the odds. When an investor approaches the equity markets, if the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor, bet heavily.”


The Dhandho Investor: The Low-Risk Value Method to High Returns by Mohnish Pabrai

Posted by dumbMoney > 2021-12-27 23:31 | Report Abuse

COL want to bet heavily, but TTB says No!

Posted by JohnDough > 2022-01-02 13:54 | Report Abuse

“If starving is a real possibility, a meal today is more important than a feast in a week’s time, and the brain’s wiring reflects that survival bias. Such notions are embedded in popular phrases such as “a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush”.

But at Nomad we try to be more analytical: it is the two birds in the bush we are concerned with and how they compare to the bird in the hand. The partnership is up this year, but you can see that it also does not mean very much compared to the deferred gains.

It is price to value that’s important.”


Nomad Investment Partnership Jun 2005 Letter by Nick Sleep

Posted by Tcs Tan > 2022-01-04 20:27 | Report Abuse

Pak warren is nothing compared to TTTTTB……..I am 100000000000pc sure

Posted by Tcs Tan > 2022-01-04 20:27 | Report Abuse

Berkshire is nothing compared to eyekap

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-01-05 00:46 | Report Abuse

@Tcs Tan You mean WB's $100K annual salary compared to TTB's millions in fees?

Posted by Nepo > 2022-01-05 08:03 | Report Abuse

It seems as if Icap invested shares are appreciating recently greater than index. Sam, Kgb, Wellcall ,Hpmt.. are a few, More to come probably is Airasia...Of course you can choose not to believe..

Good sign to those who believe TTB value investing.

Posted by Nepo > 2022-01-05 08:04 | Report Abuse

sb recommend Insas, but too bad Insas is sinking..

Posted by Nepo > 2022-01-05 08:11 | Report Abuse

I believe you also don't want Airasia bankrupt..otherwise we not only can't enjoy "everyone can fly" also we, Malaysia will lose one of the most prestige local brand which can be proudly show off to the world..

Posted by Nepo > 2022-01-05 13:52 | Report Abuse

And NOT proudly to be most corrupted country in the wworld, are you?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-01-06 01:36 | Report Abuse

@Nepo Sam is trading at PER 50+, KGB at 60+. Prime examples of value investing?

Posted by Nepo > 2022-01-06 06:17 | Report Abuse

@dumb, it is impt to determine forward PE, i.e future potential of the co

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-01-06 16:49 | Report Abuse

@Nepo That's what the analysts and BOD's were doing for the glove companies during the runups and share buybacks. See what happened?