Posted by RealValueInvestor > 2022-03-07 17:49 | Report Abuse

Yep me too! I experienced it.

Meanwhile Mr Dough, when are you going to stop doing a TTB and just claiming others greatness by quoting them? What do YOU think, assuming you do?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-03-07 18:14 | Report Abuse

@RealValueInvestor The 1972 local bull run partly funded my post graduate studies, so that quantified my 'experience'.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-03-07 18:33 | Report Abuse

Dr. Neoh Soon Kean's Dynaquest was started in 1980, compared to Capital Dynamics in 1989, so who is the first independent fund manager in the country? And that certainly did not make TTB the only Malaysian fund manager to have experienced all those stock market cycles claimed by him. https://my.linkedin.com/company/capital-dynamics-group

Posted by JohnDough > 2022-03-13 10:24 | Report Abuse

Buy stocks as if you knew all markets would be closed for the next ten years, I used to urge my staff. Back in the days when performance was the name of the game such a comment may have convicted me of senility.

I still think the idea has merit.

If we buy stocks because we believe in them, expecting to hold them for the rest of our lives, the chances are good that others will come to appreciate them too. Then, if some day we do decide to sell them, they will appeal to the wisest buyers-a market that is always liquid.


100 to 1 in the Stock Market by Thomas William Phelps

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-03-16 00:06 | Report Abuse

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3p4uih30cxqz1s1/iCapital%20price%20discount.pdf?dl=0 This is the chart showing the historical performance of the company's share price, NAV and price/NAV, adjusted for reinvestment of the two dividends declared in the past. From just a small 5% discount way back in 2009, it has widened to around 40% now. Should management be concerned? Or as someone has tried to explain, this is due to the potential overhang depressing the price if COL decides to sell down its accumulated position if they lose the judicial review sought by the Company.

Posted by JohnDough > 2022-03-20 12:46 | Report Abuse

Here was the fundamental, largely unacknowledged contradiction that haunted the People’s Market: Stocks were valued for the short term, yet investors were told that they should buy and hold for the long-term.


Bull! A History of the Boom and Bust, 1982-2004 by Maggie Mahar

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-03-21 01:04 | Report Abuse

Conventional wisdom says hold stocks for the long term, because returns beat most other forms of investment and stock markets generally come back higher the next market cycle, but not to hold on to the same stocks that have no future, like Kodak and Polaroid in US. The current market leaders in US are not there 20 years ago, having replaced names like GM, GE and Sears. Parkson is a very good example here.

Posted by JohnDough > 2022-03-27 16:05 | Report Abuse

Munger kept agitating to buy better quality companies, ones with strong earnings potential for the long-term and ones he believed would be less troublesome to own.

“There are huge advantages for an individual to get into a position where you make a few great investments and just sit back. You’re paying less to brokers. You’re listening to less nonsense.

If it works, the governmental tax system gives you an extra one, two or three percentage points per annum with compound effects.”


Damn Right! Behind the Scenes with Berkshire Hathaway Billionaire Charlie Munger – by Janet Lowe

Posted by Thirai Thiraviam > 2022-03-29 20:38 | Report Abuse

ICAP continues to sell at 40% discount. As a retail investor, do I mind the City of London Investment Management Company (CLIM) investing in ICAP? No, I don't. ICAP's manager, Mr. Tan Teng Boo (TTB) blames CLIM for the massive discount -- that CLIM somehow depresses the price. It is a fantastic theory; one that only TTB understands and appreciates.

The High Court certainly wasn't amused with ICAP's stories, and yesterday rejected ICAP's application for injunction against CLIM. It has also ordered ICAP to pay the Defendants a punitive sum of RM30,000. Would ICAP learn its lesson? Unfortunately, no. It plans to appeal the ruling, and spend more time and money on the quixotic quest. :sigh:

In an opinion piece written in iCapital (which is Capital Dynamics Sdn. Bhd.'s newsletter) recently, there was an article called "The Ukraine Boomerang". I am not sure who wrote it. The author, clearly a Putin and China apologist, predicts how "2022 will be the year when the mighty Russian bear overwhelms the US stock markets and her economy". The article not only calls the invasion of Ukraine, a sovereign nation, "Russia's military operation", it also labels the democratically elected president of Ukraine, Mr. Volodymyr Zelensky, "Clown of Ukraine", who is apparently "playing with fire and putting the lives of 44 mil Ukrainians at risk". Go figure!

Long-time observers of TTB know that he has been a China-groupie for a long-while. It's one of his quirks, we've dismissed. But, having the read the article, I couldn't help but conclude that he has allowed his love of everything China to cloud not just his POV, but his judgement, as well. If the thinking behind ICAP managers is, well, so hidebound, how could ICAP ever convince investors to take a fresh look at it, and close the NAV-price gap?

I don't know. But, ludicrously blaming the West, or CLIM for that matter, for one's failings is not a winning formula, I believe.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-03-30 00:54 | Report Abuse

How can the company want to label COL as a shareholder when the latter's name does not appear anywhere in its share register and does not fit the definition of a shareholder in its constitution? The $30K is only for costs for the other side, what about its own legal costs todate? If COL decides to sue the company for damages for wrongful injunction, there is another cost to pay.

Posted by observatory > 2022-03-30 17:58 | Report Abuse

ICAP management and their board won't be bothered with spending more money on pursuing the case. After all, the expenses are paid from the company fund, which anyway is idle cash kept in bank accounts with practically zero return after management fee and taxes!

A perfect example of value trap!

Who should be blamed? Ultimately it's the shareholders. Up to last year there remained shareholders representing about 43 millions or 30% of company shares still voted for these board members. My sympathy to those shareholders who still harbor the delusion that the board and the manager look after their interests. It must be too painful to admit mistake!

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-03-30 21:42 | Report Abuse

Like Biden would say, regime change?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-04-02 01:06 | Report Abuse

@observatory COL already has more than 20% and may buy more after the injunction is dismissed. Only needs another 10% to neutralise this 43 million block.

Posted by JohnDough > 2022-04-03 11:11 | Report Abuse

Zak and I did not plan for this! We have ended up with a portfolio of owner-managed businesses as a by-product of our assessment of the quality of the people involved. In other words, these managers earned their way into the portfolio.

We feel slightly foolish for not recognizing this trait in advance, but, of course, we would have a bias toward founder-managed businesses (duh!). By the standards of the industry, we do not own very many shares (ten stocks account for over eighty percent of the Partnership) and we own them for long periods.

If the existing portfolio is to be successful then our results will come from the mismatch between the orientation of the founders and the mark to market mentality of the quarterly holding period investors that set the price of the companies on the stock market.

This principal (founder) agent (trading oriented fund manager) conflict is the deep reality of the markets and probably the dominant characteristic of our careers. I also think we understand it far better than our peers.


Nomad Investment Partnership Jun 2007 Interim Letter by Nick Sleep

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-04-05 15:44 | Report Abuse

The company, or rather, TTB using company's money, to appeal against the High Court's decision that in law and the company's own constitution, COL is not a shareholder. It has yet to explain why is it against the shareholders' interest to have foreign funds, not COL, as shareholders? It is going to be an expensive and futile attempt to argue the point that COL is a shareholder, as defined by the four corners of the relevant documents.

Posted by Nepo > 2022-04-07 15:04 | Report Abuse

Actually i like COL because they buy in to support the share price.
Another thing is with COL , minority has more power to speak rather than totally control under one shadow man..

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2022-04-07 16:45 | Report Abuse

"The company, or rather, TTB using company's money, to appeal against the High Court's decision that in law and the company's own constitution, COL is not a shareholder. It has yet to explain why is it against the shareholders' interest to have foreign funds, not COL, as shareholders? It is going to be an expensive and futile attempt to argue the point that COL is a shareholder, as defined by the four corners of the relevant documents."


Has anyone asked ttb what outcome(s) he is hoping from this court case? Is it really so necessary to pursue this matter so aggressively? I cannot fathom the need for this at this moment in time!

Posted by stockraider > 2022-04-07 16:59 | Report Abuse

TTB is a lousy investor.
Even Raider beat him flat loh!

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-04-07 22:55 | Report Abuse

The previous injunction was given on the undertaking by the company to pay damages arising from it. If the share price goes up while COL is prevented from buying, that's potential damages if the company loses the case.!

Posted by JohnDough > 2022-04-10 14:18 | Report Abuse

Warren Buffett was not concerned about catching the top of the wave. He was far more interested in not wiping out. While most investors are motivated by a desire to make money, Buffett focused first on not losing money.

In that way, Buffett behaved like Old Money. The majority of investors agonize over the prospect of getting out too early and missing out on the profits that would have made them rich. But the very rich don't fret so much about making money. They have money.

Their greatest fear is losing it. This explains why, when the bidding escalates whether in a stockmarket, a "hot" real estate market, or at a Sotheby's auction - Old Money tends to step aside, letting New Money carry the day.


Bull! A History of the Boom and Bust, 1982-2004 by Maggie Mahar

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-04-11 13:08 | Report Abuse

@integrity....COL is the only party (not shareholder) that can call for an EGM to change the BOD any time, which is an existential threat to TTB. The present court case is academic as even if won, the cap is still at 20%, so won't make any difference. The next threshold is the 33% parties in concert rule when a MGO must be made. By which time, the battle would have most probably been lost already, so this is essentially just a rear guard action to prevent this.

Posted by JohnDough > 2022-04-17 15:48 | Report Abuse

“icapital.biz is suited to investors with a longer term investment horizon, typically three years and above.

icapital.biz will suit sophisticated investors who understand and are able to take advantage of the premiums and discounts of CEFs, attracted to the prospects of capital gains and want to have a portfolio which is professionally managed.

Investors of icapital.biz are likely to seek long-term capital growth on their investments at an acceptable level of risk.”


icapital.biz Berhad Prospectus

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-04-19 01:38 | Report Abuse

COL has been around for more than 10 years, and yet is not welcomed, how? Not long enough?

Posted by Nepo > 2022-04-23 14:57 | Report Abuse

Col intends to fire ttb and liquidate icap, that is why not welcome.

When more and more shares are purchased, certainly ttb can't sleep well .

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-04-24 00:24 | Report Abuse

@Nepo For the record, all that COL has done is to vote against the election of certain directors at AGM, which is a basic right of every shareholder. They have not indicated any intention to "fire TTB and liquidate iCap". It is just someone's paranoia and scare mongering. If they had wanted to do so, could have done it already any time after acquiring more than 10% shareholdings for its funds under management.

Posted by JohnDough > 2022-04-24 14:39 | Report Abuse

“I've come to think of the best investors as an idiosyncratic breed of practical philosophers. They aren't trying to solve those abstruse puzzles that mesmerize many real philosophers, such as "Does this chair exist?"

Rather, they are seekers of what the economist John Maynard Keynes called "worldly wisdom," which they deploy to attack more pressing problems, such as "How can I make smart decisions about the future if the future is unknowable?"

They look for advantages wherever they can find them: economic history, neuroscience, literature, Stoicism, Buddhism, sports, the science of habit formation, meditation, or anything else that can help.

Their unconstrained willingness to explore "what works" makes them powerful role models to study in our own pursuit of success, not only in markets but in every area of life.”

Richer, Wiser, Happier – How the World’s Greatest Investors Win in Markets and Life by William Green

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2022-04-27 15:56 | Report Abuse

icapital.biz berhad

Seth Klarman

It is better to invest into a fund where the manager measures the absolute performance of the fund on a yearly basis.

It doesn't make sense for investors of a fund to be hookwinked by the comparative performance of the fund in the short term relative to a certain index.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-04-28 22:11 | Report Abuse

@Integrity - As long as shareholders can only receive market price and not NAV when they want to realise their investments, shouldn't share price be more important than NAV as a measurement of fund performance? NAV is only realisable upon liquidation of the fund, otherwise, it is just an nice to know number, you can't take it to the bank.

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2022-04-30 10:28 | Report Abuse

iCap's performance has been lacklustre in recent years.

iCap prides itself in its superior strategy in its investing. An obvious strategy employed by iCap has been asset allocation based on its perception of the market overall valuation. In recent years, it has kept a lot of cash in its asset allocation presumably the market was overpriced. In fact, iCap organized many meetings a few years back to inform its investors of this based on their analysis.

Even such simple strategy of moving to cash and out of cash based on the valuation of the overall market is not easy. The market can remain irrational for longer period than the investor can remain solvent.

Still pricing the market is safer than a strategy using timing the market.

A fund's performance is better measured by its absolute annual performance. Based on this, iCap has disappointed many long term investors who did not get into this fund at its inception. The original investors who bought the fund and hold on to it till now remain rewarded, but how many of these remain in this fund to date? Perhaps, still a majority. (?)

Posted by JohnDough > 2022-05-01 13:03 | Report Abuse

“The US inflationary situation is getting to a deeply worrying state amidst the Ukrainian Crisis that is continuing with no resolution in sight. For Malaysians, the imminent GE15 is creating another level of uncertainty. What should you as an investor do given the prevailing circumstances?

icapital.biz Berhad has always been managed in such a way that its shareowners can sleep soundly at night, knowing their hard earned savings are in good hands. I have also managed icapital.biz Berhad in such a way that in times of crisis or dire need, icapital.biz Berhad is there for its share owners, witness the special RM28 million Covid Relief dividend.

Not only have I achieved all of the above, icapital.biz Berhad has also delivered superior returns to its shareowners and is still boasting a substantial cash-laden war chest. A well-managed closed-end fund like icapital.biz Berhad is an excellent investment product for individual investors, especially during tumultuous times like now.

However, after so many decades, there is still only one listed closed-end fund on Bursa Malaysia. The London, Sydney and New York stock exchanges abound with closed-end funds. For Bursa Malaysia to have the same percentage as London for example, the Malaysian stock market should see more than a hundred and thirty closed- end funds listed, instead of just one.

icapital.biz Berhad is without doubt a precious investment. Do not let any investor who refuses to be a share owner destroy such a rare gem.”

icapital.biz Berhad 3Q22 report – commentary by fund manager

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-05-01 16:51 | Report Abuse

@Integrity - According to the latest 2021 30 largest shareholders list, the local investors have 25 million shares, foreign shareholders have 29 million shares, so the swing votes depend on the smaller shareholders out there.

Posted by stockraider > 2022-05-01 17:05 | Report Abuse

Remember Icap is not a work of art like mona lisa loh!

Even when there is less close end fund....that does not mean icap should be precious loh!

Icap will be very precious if it is well managed and outperform the mkt sustainably over many years loh!

However Icap failed to outperformed the mkt and for the past 3 years did even outperformed against fixed deposits mah!

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-05-02 10:42 | Report Abuse

In more developed markets, passive funds have overtaken active funds in market share because the latter have not outperformed the former after costs. Singapore used to have 4 CEF managed by the Big 4 Banks (reduced to 3 later following the merger between OUB and UOB), but one after another, they all went into voluntary delisting because they have no solutions to persistent price discount to NAV. Same for Amanah Small Cap Fund and the two AHP property trusts here. iCap will be the last of the Mohicans, once foreign vulture funds smell blood in the water.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-05-02 12:05 | Report Abuse

After persistent 'harassments' by foreign fund Laxey Partners over price discount, UIS, the last of the Singapore big bank managed CEF finally threw in the towel and went for self liquidation. https://links.sgx.com/FileOpen/UIS-ANN-ConveningofEGM-11Dec2013.ashx?App=ArchiveAnnouncement&FileID=47631&AnncID=0455C6DDAEFEFF8A48257C2200304CA7

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-05-02 12:27 | Report Abuse

And this was how the whole self liquidation movement of CEF's in Singapore started https://1drv.ms/b/s!AgLvGZpm89YslnanZSYxH-UUabGT

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2022-05-03 10:23 | Report Abuse

>>>>
And this was how the whole self liquidation movement of CEF's in Singapore started https://1drv.ms/b/s!AgLvGZpm89YslnanZSYxH-UUabGT
>>>>>


iCap may/will suffer the same fate.

Posted by stockraider > 2022-05-03 11:40 | Report Abuse

Totally agreed

Icap should be liquidated loh!

Bcos of many recent yrs of poor performance loh!

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-05-03 15:30 | Report Abuse

A lot of shareholders are now locked in involuntary bondage because of the deep price discount. They are not happy with holding the shares, but to leave now means giving up on more than $1 in NAV at the current market price, so have no choice but to stay and hope for things to improve. Do the BOD care? They pass the buck to the manager. Like in the present political situation, if voters keep voting for the incumbents, they only have themselves to blame. These shareholders are TTB's safe deposits, just like immigrant workers, with their passports held by the agent/management, in bondage.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-05-03 22:11 | Report Abuse

Another thing that shareholders may not realise is that while the 1.5% p.a. management fee is based on NAV, the value to shareholders is based on market price, and with the current discount at around 40%, the effective cost of the management fee is around 1.5 times the nominal amount, or 2.25% p.a. So the price discount has a double whammy effect on shareholders.

Posted by WingsOfMercy2 > 2022-05-04 07:02 | Report Abuse

Capital Dynamics has a notorious reputation as a terrible workplace, with a 2.6/5 rating on Glassdoor, with strong indications of poor talent retention.
https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Capital-Dynamics-Reviews-E1525505.htm

Lesser known to most, the performance of the privately managed funds are piss poor as well.
https://funds.icapital.biz/iccf/performance/index.html
https://funds.icapital.biz/icgf/performance/index.html
https://funds.icapital.biz/icivf/performance/index.html

TTB is a clown at best, I'd think twice before letting this fella manage my money.

Posted by stockraider > 2022-05-04 11:08 | Report Abuse

Correctloh....it is imperative Icap must be liquidated loh!

Just imagine placing so much money in Fixed deposits & getting return close to 2.2% pa when the management fees effectively 2.25% pa mah!

Posted by dumbMoney > 12 hours ago | Report Abuse

Another thing that shareholders may not realise is that while the 1.5% p.a. management fee is based on NAV, the value to shareholders is based on market price, and with the current discount at around 40%, the effective cost of the management fee is around 1.5 times the nominal amount, or 2.25% p.a. So the price discount has a double whammy effect on shareholders.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-05-04 15:12 | Report Abuse

@WingsOfMercy Thanks for the comparisons. If it is any consolation, there is no performance fee payable by iCapital like in the other funds mentioned. Otherwise, such fee is payable from a zero base, i.e. from the first dollar of NAV increase over the high water mark. So for funds that are placed in FD, the 10% performance fee is payable on top of the management fee, all without any management effort. The huge trade off is that the units can be redeemed at NAV any time after 1 year without the back end load redemption fee of 5%. If an iCapital shareholder sells his share in the market, the NAV discount accrues to the buyer, but if the company buys his share through a share buy back program, the discount is captured by the company and accrues to the remaining shareholders as an increase. How many shares are out there in the market where you can buy and sell (i.e. cancel) for an immediate gain of 50%? There are now mainly 2 classes of shareholders in the company. Those who are locked in because they cannot bear the loss of the price discount, and those who are attracted by the deep price discount. Even though they may appear to be on opposite sides, they are actually on the same page, both aiming for the share price to close the discount gap.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-05-05 01:49 | Report Abuse

This is how upside potentials are calculated from price discount to NAV:
A 30% discount means 70% cost, 30% discount = 43% upside
A 35% discount means 65% cost, 35% discount = 54% upside
A 40% discount means 60% cost, 40% discount = 67% upside.
At $2.17 market price and 3.37 NAV, price discount = 35.6%

Posted by JohnDough > 2022-05-08 13:01 | Report Abuse

“The world has undergone another tumultuous period since my last quarterly commentary for the period ending 30th November 2021. Besides the ongoing global COVID-19 pandemic, the Ukrainian Crisis and the current pandemic outbreak and lockdowns in China, the world has been moving from one crisis to the next.

Layered on this complex situation is surging inflation in the United States, the UK, the EU and many other countries. Due to a serious misjudgement of the current inflation trend, the US Federal Reserve is now in a panicky mode and has to aggressively tighten US monetary policy which will most likely push the US economy into a recession.

Despite such turbulent times, icapital.biz Berhad has performed exceptionally well. As at 13 April 2022, your Fund’s NAV achieved solid 1-year, 2-year, and 3-year returns of 9.13%, 28.94%, and 6.46% respectively. The same goes for its share price, which generated superior returns of 21.50%, 18.50%, and 2.37% respectively.

Both your Fund’s NAV and share price have outperformed Bursa Malaysia, which returned only - 0.03%, 17.78%, and -2.02% over the said three time periods.”


icapital.biz Berhad 3Q22 report – commentary by fund manager

Posted by DickyMe > 2022-05-08 13:05 |

Post removed.Why?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-05-08 18:10 | Report Abuse

For any other listed company, shareholders' returns are measured by share price difference plus dividends received, if any. NAV is an academic number as long as it cannot be cashed in. Why keep comparing against the market index which excludes dividends declared by the component stocks? That's around 4.31% for the KLCI and 3.77% for the Emas index, which if added back, will prove the fallacy of superior iCap share price performance against the index.
Index Characteristics
Attributes FTSE Bursa Malaysia KLCI FTSE Bursa Malaysia EMAS
Number of constituents 30 312
Net MCap (MYRm) 492,360 700,485
Dividend Yield % 4.31 3.77
Constituent Sizes (Net MCap MYRm)
Average 16,412 2,245
Largest 66,532 66,532
Smallest 3,444 15
Median 11,170 310
Weight of Largest Constituent (%) 13.51 9.50
Top 10 Holdings (% Index MCap) 62.64 44.03

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-05-08 18:12 | Report Abuse

The numbers above don't line up properly when cut and pasted. They are under two columns, KLCI and the Emas Index. The link is here https://research.ftserussell.com/Analytics/Factsheets/Home/DownloadSingleIssue?issueName=FBMKLCI&IsManual=false

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-05-08 20:22 | Report Abuse

KLCI only adjusts for capital changes of the component stocks, i.e. bonus, splits, rights etc, while a total returns index also include reinvested income, i.e. dividends. There is no easily available total returns index for Bursa, but for a while, there is the Dow Jones Malaysia Total stock market total returns index for the period up to July 2017. This computes the total returns of the total market, instead of just the selected index component stocks, both capital changes and reinvested dividends. A comparison gainst the iCap NAV and KLCI has been graphed here https://1drv.ms/b/s!AgLvGZpm89YslnheH4Pml_EpVbmN?e=fIjVkA

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-05-08 20:42 | Report Abuse

Just to make it clearer, iCap share price is added here, in brown https://1drv.ms/b/s!AgLvGZpm89YslnnPbk3lijgSid-G

Posted by dumbMoney > 2022-05-08 20:45 | Report Abuse

The comparisons are made for this specific period solely because that is the only time the Dow Jones data are available readily on line, so it is entirely incidental, not on purpose. For different time periods, the comparisons will be and can be quite different.