Posted by noobnnew > 2016-02-22 13:49 | Report Abuse

Desa job in this forum is to attack Iconxxxxx and lick u know who ball. I doubt he know anything about stock investment

Posted by Ven Felix > 2016-02-22 13:51 | Report Abuse

Kyy's ball.

Posted by JN88 > 2016-02-22 14:22 | Report Abuse

Good point coldrisks.... never use margin unless u are warrent buffer or fund manager....because u suing other people money ..wakakakakaka

Posted by kcchongnz > 2016-02-22 14:24 | Report Abuse

From a financial blogger I respect very much.

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kianweiaritcles/91644.jsp

Posted by coolinvestor > 2016-02-22 14:35 | Report Abuse

Does it mean substantial shareholding held by bank nominees are all on margin finance? I seriously didn't know it.

KC i believe some of the shares held in nominees account are for pledging by the owners to the banks( act as collateral) in order for the owners to get cash out to buy things.

This is like tony of aax/airasia.

thats why tony can buy football clubs n go into F1 racing

so once their price drop to a certain level below the cash they took out. they to have to replendish the borrowed amount kinda like a margin call. anyone correct me if i am wrong cheers

Posted by Desa20201956 > 2016-02-22 14:44 | Report Abuse

funny, we have Chong talk about smooth exponential growth but no margins.
I prefer to talk about no such thing ( as smooth exponential curves) when dealing with stocks, but margin is a tool regularly used in the stock market . Learn to live with the fluctuations and manage it. Keeps you awake, and alert
If there is smooth exponential growth people should take on bigger gearings. Hedge funds routinely takes on gearing of 10 to 1 or sometimes even gearings of 100 to 1 depends on how certain their strategies can give them a smooth exponential curve during the period covered.
eg ,if their strategies can give them a smooth exponential curve of 5% (within 5 standard deviation certainty) and borrowing cost is 4%, they take up a gearing of 100 to 1, then their ROCE becomes 100%.

So Chong, why talk about smooth exponential growth and then no gearing?

People should be aware that market is about risks,,,there is no smooth exponential curves...but risks can be changed by many many methods and risks must be managed.

the methods and strategies for managing risks can be covered by modern portfolio theories.

Posted by musangking > 2016-02-22 14:45 | Report Abuse

for expansion sure good

Posted by kcchongnz > 2016-02-22 15:15 | Report Abuse

Posted by Desa20201956 > Feb 22, 2016 02:44 PM | Report Abuse

funny, we have Chong talk about smooth exponential growth but no margins.

WHICH CHONG TALKED ABOUT "SMOOTH EXPONENTIAL GROWTH"? WHO SAID GOT SUCH THING AS SMOOTH AND ALSO EXPONENTIAL GROWTH?

I prefer to talk about no such thing ( as smooth exponential curves) when dealing with stocks, but margin is a tool regularly used in the stock market . Learn to live with the fluctuations and manage it. Keeps you awake, and alert

DO YOU USE MARGINS? PLEASE SHARE WITH US HOW YOU MANAGE IT AND BECOME RICH?

If there is smooth exponential growth people should take on bigger gearings. Hedge funds routinely takes on gearing of 10 to 1 or sometimes even gearings of 100 to 1 depends on how certain their strategies can give them a smooth exponential curve during the period covered.

ARE WE TALKING ABOUT INDIVIDUAL INVESTORS HERE OR HEDGE FUND?
IN YOUR CASE HOW DO THEY INVEST, IN WHAT, TO GIVE THEM YOUR THIS "SMOOTH EXPONENTIAL GROWTH"?

eg ,if their strategies can give them a smooth exponential curve of 5% (within 5 standard deviation certainty) and borrowing cost is 4%, they take up a gearing of 100 to 1, then their ROCE becomes 100%.

SO ARE YOU MANAGING A HEDGE FUND AH?
HEARD OF LONG TERM CAPITAL MANAGEMENT?

So Chong, why talk about smooth exponential growth and then no gearing?

WHERE AND WHEN DID I TALK ABOUT APA INI "SMOOTH EXPONENTIAL GROWTH"?

People should be aware that market is about risks,,,there is no smooth exponential curves...but risks can be changed by many many methods and risks must be managed.

SO HOW YOU MANGE THIS RISK OF "SMOOTH EXPONENTIAL GROWTH"

the methods and strategies for managing risks can be covered by modern portfolio theories.

REALLY AH? BUT YOU DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO DISCUSS WITH ME WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT MODERN PORTFOLIO THEORY AND BRUSHED IT ASIDE AS "YOU DON'T WANT TO GO THERE", HOW THEN DO YOU KNOW MODERN PORTFOLIO THEORY CAN MANAGE THAT "SMOOTH AN EXPONENTIAL GROWTH" RISK?

Posted by coolinvestor > 2016-02-22 15:43 | Report Abuse

I am beginning to see why lots of ppl decided to refute desa in large groups.

cheers and good investing

Posted by NOBY > 2016-02-22 15:50 | Report Abuse

Good read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Term_Capital_Management

Posted by kcchongnz > 2016-02-22 16:04 | Report Abuse

Posted by NOBY > Feb 22, 2016 03:50 PM | Report Abuse
Good read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Term_Capital_Management


Even Nobel Prize winners, yes genius, failed miserably using leverage.

Posted by Desa20201956 > 2016-02-22 16:20 | Report Abuse

Think creatively......there is always bigger opportunities when think creatively.
Margin, gearing, borrowings will be with the market as long as there is a market

You want to be guru, you have to give them what they want.

Oh...and I was mocking you on that smooth exponential curve you introduced earlier.

Yes, finance is an exciting field, looks like you have to go back to classroom as much as your students.

Cannot sit still and no change one.

Posted by Desa20201956 > 2016-02-22 16:22 | Report Abuse

Well....in the case of listed companies, no body pledges their shares to finance the company expansion. That is for Sdn bhd.


musangking
6 posts
Posted by musangking > Feb 22, 2016 02:45 PM | Report Abuse

for expansion sure good

Posted by kcchongnz > 2016-02-22 17:06 | Report Abuse

Posted by Desa20201956 > Feb 22, 2016 04:20 PM | Report Abuse
Think creatively......there is always bigger opportunities when think creatively.
Margin, gearing, borrowings will be with the market as long as there is a market
You want to be guru, you have to give them what they want.
Oh...and I was mocking you on that smooth exponential curve you introduced earlier.
Yes, finance is an exciting field, looks like you have to go back to classroom as much as your students.
Cannot sit still and no change one.


"Oh...and I was mocking you on that smooth exponential curve you introduced earlier."

Before you "mock" someone else, look at yourself in the mirror first. You don't even understand what is a graph showing compounded annual growth, and called it "smooth exponential growth".

"Yes, finance is an exciting field, looks like you have to go back to classroom as much as your students."

Me need to go back to classroom? Or is it you go back and learn at least some accounting stuff before you simply shoot everywhere and nobody knows what the f you are talking about.

First you came to my thread on enterprise value and gave your new theory on what enterprise value is, as "an accountant"? You realized your mistakes and deleted all your posts, but there are still some there which were copied and pasted by others.

Then you came to another thread of mine and tried to mock me again and again, and talked cock again with all nonsense, but when challenged couldn't answered a thing of what I asked about accounting and finance.But you just keep on talking nonsense again.

On the other hand, whatever someone rich said, whatever, whether make sense or not, you be throw praises relentlessly. I just simply can't agree more with these remarks:





Posted by Icon8888 > Feb 20, 2016 07:18 PM | Report Abuse
I am against u because u Poh lan pah
I found that despicable
Period

Posted by Ven Felix > Feb 20, 2016 09:17 PM | Report Abuse
R u nuts? DESA...

Posted by Icon8888 > Feb 20, 2016 10:58 PM | Report Abuse
You no substance said no substance lah
KC is waiting for you to response. Don't beat around the bush. Go straight to talk about portfolio performance management

Posted by soros228 > Feb 20, 2016 11:33 PM | Report Abuse
KC , Desa is still very new in stock market.

Posted by PureBULL . > Feb 21, 2016 03:01 AM | Report Abuse
DESA,
This big time u 'toh leow'.
I was hinting to u to just zig up.


Posted by coolinvestor > Feb 22, 2016 03:43 PM | Report Abuse
I am beginning to see why lots of ppl decided to refute desa in large groups.
cheers and good investing

Posted by Probability > 2016-02-22 20:18 | Report Abuse

Can anyone come out with figures ...how much reward of money can justify risk of losing your life?

If you can answer that one question...then we can debate on this topic very well.

Posted by Desa20201956 > 2016-02-22 20:26 | Report Abuse

Chang...didn't realize you that bad....

Compounded growth curve is another word exponential curve la....same thing.

Posted by Desa20201956 > 2016-02-22 20:28 | Report Abuse

Enterprise value....it is some thing I am very familiar with .....but a bit rusty that day and made some errors ...no idea how errors come from..

Posted by kcchongnz > 2016-02-22 21:21 | Report Abuse

Posted by Desa20201956 > Feb 22, 2016 08:26 PM | Report Abuse
Chang...didn't realize you that bad....
Compounded growth curve is another word exponential curve la....same thing.


Me bad? Or you bad? Proton Saga is a car. Is a car also must be Proton Saga?

Posted by Icon8888 > 2016-02-22 21:23 | Report Abuse

Kc, this guy real small ciku. He bought one lot of KESM and five lots of Tek Seng

@@

Posted by Icon8888 > 2016-02-22 21:25 | Report Abuse

His stock track record lousy (he admitted it)

I am scratching my head where did all those hyper confidence come from ???

@@

Posted by kcchongnz > 2016-02-22 21:26 | Report Abuse

Posted by Desa20201956 > Feb 22, 2016 08:28 PM | Report Abuse
Enterprise value....it is some thing I am very familiar with .....but a bit rusty that day and made some errors ...no idea how errors come from..

Yes, accountant must know what is enterprise value (EV). It is absolutely must as it is his bread and butter in his profession.

A simple company has just 3 components in its EV

EV = market cap + market value or book value of total debt - cash

You got two of of the three wrong, either with the sign wrong, or total omission!

How? Still want to mock an engineer talking about accounting stuff, which as an accountant (?), you are not even able to debate with him.

Posted by Icon8888 > 2016-02-22 21:27 | Report Abuse

And he admitted that he can't afford to send his daughter to OZ to study

LOL.... That is not very successful, isn't it ?

Again, why is he throwing his weight around like he knows best ?

@@

Posted by Icon8888 > 2016-02-22 21:30 | Report Abuse

Not many people in i3 bought ONE lot of KESM... Not many...

I believe nowadays, i3 members average portfolio size is few hundred thousands. This guy is very likely less than 100k

If that is the case, why is he talking down everybody ?

@@

Posted by Desa20201956 > 2016-02-22 21:33 | Report Abuse

Well, I am confident because I am confident ......You jealous?

Posted by Desa20201956 > 2016-02-22 21:37 | Report Abuse

No big deal this enterprise value.....especially since it turns out most companies come out with the same answer whether use PE ratios or enterprise values.

Just a tool.

Posted by Icon8888 > 2016-02-22 21:42 | Report Abuse

I don't envy people that needs to PLP in order to make a,living....

Posted by 3EMWE > 2016-02-22 21:51 | Report Abuse

black-scholes model worked for a time until greed took over and the rest is history

Posted by Desa20201956 > 2016-02-22 21:54 | Report Abuse

I told you many times getting any money or any benefit from Koon is not the reason for my posts.

Posted by kcchongnz > 2016-02-22 21:54 | Report Abuse

Posted by Desa20201956 > Feb 22, 2016 09:37 PM | Report Abuse

No big deal this enterprise value.....especially since it turns out most companies come out with the same answer whether use PE ratios or enterprise values.

Just a tool.


Yes, accountant must know what is enterprise value (EV). It is absolutely must as it is his bread and butter in his profession.

A simple company has just 3 components in its EV

EV = market cap + market value or book value of total debt - cash

You got two of of the three wrong, either with the sign wrong, or total omission!

Posted by manimaniONGG > 2016-02-22 21:57 | Report Abuse

desa, pls teach me the art of PLP.

i pay u rm960 a year.

Posted by Desa20201956 > 2016-02-22 21:59 | Report Abuse

Yes, Felix, one time articled clerk , but you would not know what it means.


I look at you Felix as I look at a tea lady.....that, I am sure you know what it means.

Posted by Desa20201956 > 2016-02-22 22:02 | Report Abuse

Why I am so confident?

Because I can talk issues.

The rest of you just want to talk about me.

That gives me a lot of confidence.

Posted by 3EMWE > 2016-02-22 22:05 | Report Abuse

greed is good

Posted by manimaniONGG > 2016-02-22 22:05 | Report Abuse

we all admire your PLP skill. few of us, me, for one, wish to learn from u.

Posted by Desa20201956 > 2016-02-22 22:10 | Report Abuse

Black scholes talks about warrant pricing....not about risks and margins.

Posted by donfollowblindly > 2016-02-22 22:14 | Report Abuse

Agree. Black Scholes does not tell BIMB W can drop from 66 sen to 28 sen.

Posted by Desa20201956 > Feb 22, 2016 10:10 PM | Report Abuse
Black scholes talks about warrant pricing....not about risks and margins.

Posted by Desa20201956 > 2016-02-22 22:15 | Report Abuse

My portfolio size is $100,000 . Nothing to hide.

My confidence size is $ 100 million.

Very transparent, nothing to hide.

My target $ 130, 000 end of this year.

If I don't get that, I will have to review my confidence size.

Posted by manimaniONGG > 2016-02-22 22:16 | Report Abuse

100k portfolio? i thought u have 100 million. u talk like u have 100 million.

100k, can u go and hide inside a public toilet?

Posted by manimaniONGG > 2016-02-22 22:17 | Report Abuse

at the age of 60. your portfolio is 100k.


it shows how poor u r.

talk about being a CPA since 24??

Posted by kcchongnz > 2016-02-22 22:18 | Report Abuse

Posted by Desa20201956 > Feb 22, 2016 10:10 PM | Report Abuse
Black scholes talks about warrant pricing....not about risks and margins.

Black-Scholes Option Pricing Model is only one of the models made famous by ‎Fischer Black and ‎Myron Scholes for option pricing.

They also utilized this somewhat similar stochastic calculus model to carry out risk arbitrage in Long Term Capital Management in 1990.

Posted by kcchongnz > 2016-02-22 22:20 | Report Abuse

Posted by donfollowblindly > Feb 22, 2016 10:14 PM | Report Abuse

Agree. Black Scholes does not tell BIMB W can drop from 66 sen to 28 sen.


Of course not. Only those follow blindly,without knowing a thing, think so.

Posted by Icon8888 > 2016-02-22 22:24 | Report Abuse

Today the 15th day of CNY , everybody gather at kopitiam to chit chat

Even Kc also join...

Posted by stockraider > 2016-02-22 23:53 | Report Abuse

Posted by kcchongnz > Feb 22, 2016 11:04 AM | Report Abuse

Posted by stockraider > Feb 22, 2016 10:34 AM | Report Abuse
Btw....what is the perceive weaknesses of young people ?
The answer....is lack of capital....!! Of course beside the lacked of skill.!!


What would be the result of lack of capital, lack of skill, and combine with the use of margin finance? RAIDER AGREE LACKED OF SKILL CAN BE TRAINED...BUT USING MARGIN FINANCING IS ALSO PART OF THE OVERALL INVESTMENT SKILL....SHOULD RAIDER SAY TRAINING INVESTOR TO MANAGE THEIR MARGIN IS ALSO PART OF THE INVESTMENT SKILL,,,PERHAPS RAIDER SAY IT IN A DIFFERENT WAY...IT CAN BE CONSIDER ADVANCE PART OF INVESTMENT LOH....!!

Still want to encourage youngsters to invest with margin finance?
Yes, skill can be taught, but that guarantee the success in investing, especially in the short run? AS RAIDER SAY EARLIER...INVESTMENT IS NOT SHORT TERM....IT IS A LONG TERM PLAY....!! REMEMBER THIS ....SHARE PRICE IS A VOTING MACHINE IN THE SHORT TERM....THAT MEANS U UNABLE TO PREDICT ITS MOVEMENT IN SHORT TERM, BUT IN THE LONG TERM IT IS A WEIGHING MACHINE, THAT MEAN ITS VALUE CAN BE DETERMINE LOH...!!

If one uses margin finance, he has to be right, not only in the long run, but also in the short term. Otherwise any sharp fall in the market incurs short selling and capital can be wiped out easily.
So a skilful investor guaranteed of short-term success in investing with margin finance? WHETHER PEOPLE USE MARGIN OR OWN MONIES TO INVEST...THEY NEED TO BE RIGHT IN THE LONG RUN...IF THEY ARE WRONG WEALTH WILL BE DESTROYED LOH....!!

DON'T FORGET, EVEN IF U INVEST USING YOUR OWN MONIES....U R EXPOSE TOO...SAME AS MARGIN LOH....!! U MEET TO MAKE HIGHER THAN UR OPPORTUNITY COST....!!

IN FACT SOMETIME IT IS BETTER TO USE MARGIN THAN UR OWN MONIES LOH...!!
FOR EXAMPLE IF U LEAVE MONIES IN THE EPF...UR RATE RETURN IS 6.4% PA BUT IF U CAN BORROW USING MARGIN AT 5.4% PA, THEN IT IS BETTER FOR U TO BORROW LOH....!!

HAVING SAY THE ABOVE, AN INVESTOR NEED TO ON GUARD MORE ON MARGIN COMPARE WITH OWN MONIES.

1. WHEN SHORT TERM MOVEMENT MAY TRIGGER MARGIN CALL

2. THE BANK MAY CHANGE THE CAPPING VALUE OF YOUR SHARE, AGAIN THIS MAY REDUCE UR SECURITY..RESULTING THE RISK OF MARGIN CALL AND FORCE SELL.

3. THE BANK MAY COMPLETE DISALLOW THE VALUE OF YOUR SHARE PLEDGE, AGAIN THIS MAY TRIGGER A MARGIN CALL,

IN THE CASE OF A MARGIN INVESTOR...HE NEED TO BEAR IN MIND OF RISK ITEM 1 TO 3 COMPARE TO SHARE INVESTOR.
OTHER THAN ITEM 1 TO 3....THE RISK OF CASH INVESTOR AND MARGIN INVESTOR ARE EXACTLY THE SAME.

SO IN ORDER TO USE MARGIN FINANCING U NEED TO MANAGE YOUR MARGIN RISK LOH....RAIDER WILL ELABORATE THIS LATER...!!

Posted by 3EMWE > 2016-02-22 23:57 | Report Abuse

debt can be good until its called a bad debt

Posted by Ven Felix > 2016-02-23 00:09 | Report Abuse

Margin a/c only good while makro r stable, uptrending chart counter, make sure your porfolio simple < 6 counters and bea bit diversify. Left 20-25% cash, so that u can always make a comeback. PROFIT TAKING IS ESSENTIALLY ! The more u practise the more u know where is your porfolio weak point. So make sure u start it small, till u can till it fine,,,then increas 3-5 times till your porforlio hit the 75% of your porfolio amount. Make sure u get an apps that can alert u the cut loss & profit set by your mobile. Good luck !

Posted by stockraider > 2016-02-23 00:09 | Report Abuse

How can margin call be good? - felicity

Author: Tan KW | Publish date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016, 02:18 PM

Monday, February 22, 2016


I read an article or a blog. The person claims that he faced margin call recently, but because his stock had already appreciated and it was an opportune time to sell. When the margin call subsided, he will continue to buy as the stock according to him is undervalued.

THIS IS REALLY RIDICULOUS!

Investors. THINK. How can your stocks forced sold by your lenders be good? RAIDER COMMENT; IF U R RIDING ON THE WAVE OF SUCCESS...THE 1ST SIGN OF DANGER OR WAKE UP CALL!! THAT MEAN MARKET TELL U TO SELL EARLY LOH..!! THIS MEANS LEAST DAMAGE RUNAWAY EARLY!!...THIS MEANS TO FORCE SELL IS GOOD LOH...!!

It does not matter if the stock is undervalued or a wake up call. An investor has much less control during margin calls and stocks can be bearish for a long long time - like many months. When that happens, your holdings can be totally wiped out. Stocks in the short term can be really volatile especially in today's age where computer algorithm trading creates huge volatility in the market. RAIDER ALREADY MENTIONED THE 3 IMPORTANT LIMITATION OF MARGIN INVESTOR IN TERM OF RISK!!

This is not about borrowings for trading (as I am not totally against it), but be sure you have strong enough collateral to sustain. This advice or statement so irresponsible is really bad for man on the street who is discovering investments step by step. WHY DO U NEED TO SUSTAIN YOUR COLLATERAL ? IF THERE IS A BIG RISK COMING, THE BEST STRATEGY IS TO REDUCE YOUR EXPOSURE TO MANAGEABLE LEVEL...DO NOT ANSWER A MARGIN CALL WITH NEW MONIES....!!

Posted by Ven Felix > 2016-02-23 00:13 | Report Abuse

Another important things is 'Capping value' and investment Bank re-rating to your counters in the porfolio will affect your cash value of your porfolio.

Posted by stockraider > 2016-02-23 00:14 | Report Abuse

In a nutshell...raider like to explain...that margin investor...is like a boxer...that they will likely take more punches compare with ordinary cash investor loh....!!

If one can master the technique of taking more punches...he will do very well forward....bcos he has a very powerful tools beside own monies loh...!!

Posted by Ven Felix > 2016-02-23 00:17 | Report Abuse

Practise will fine tune the skill. Bet small for a starter during the gestation period.

Posted by coolinvestor > 2016-02-23 11:34 | Report Abuse

I find that the word 'bet'appears on a majority of margin Finance topics/discussion. Goes to show it's still a kind of gambling mentality.

This is the kind of knowledge knowhow which is grossly wrong n teaching our youngsters the wrong way.

We Shld be using the word invest especially for your future. They shld learn the prudent man rule as well. This will teach them responsibility on their own future.