Posted by murali > 2014-11-24 18:53 | Report Abuse

Hope to see all u people this sunday

Posted by soojinhou > 2014-11-24 19:15 | Report Abuse

Keep it up kc, we need more activist investors like u.

Posted by sense maker > 2014-11-24 19:46 | Report Abuse

Boo him down. The last 5 years have been relatively easy for investors as low-hanging fruits were aplenty. His performance is a disgrace by many standards. It is a great deal tougher to make money for the next 5 years to put it mildly.

Posted by bracoli > 2014-11-24 20:30 | Report Abuse

This sunday boo 9 them!

Posted by murali > 2014-11-24 20:33 | Report Abuse

Make sure u all attend n not NATO...

Posted by sense maker > 2014-11-24 20:47 | Report Abuse

I am not a shareholder of icap. All t best to u all.

Posted by limko1 > 2014-11-24 21:24 | Report Abuse

Simple, vote that sleepy, useless director out.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-24 21:34 | Report Abuse

Just a reminder to all attendees , while you speak, if any of TTB supporters yell at you and ask you to leave, we can suggest to them to snap a photo of TTB and worship him at home.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-24 21:36 | Report Abuse

Please be reminded to all attendees,the venue of adjourned AGM is located at Wisma MCA on 30-11-14 , 9am sharp.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-24 21:39 | Report Abuse

Thank Kc Chong for your effort in highlighting this issue at this crucial period to protect the share owners interest in I-CAP.

Posted by LuvLuv > 2014-11-24 22:07 | Report Abuse

Do not forget they are charging us with RM 7.8m for fund mgt as well as advisory fees for doing the "great things".cheers

Posted by Wee Shiong Cheong > 2014-11-24 22:23 | Report Abuse

be your own fund manager

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-24 22:26 | Report Abuse

Why he does not want to propose share buyback in last few AGMs, it's because the share buyback will reduce the size of the fund, thus, reducing his management fees. It will be less than his current about RM28 million fee in total since 2011.

Posted by stockoperator > 2014-11-24 22:28 | Report Abuse

Valid points.

From investing perspective i think it is unfair to say that there is Nothing to Buy 5 years ago until Now at the same time charging investing public with such a fees for straight 5 years.

Well, if MR TTB thinks the statement is unfair, then lets hear him out.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-24 22:39 | Report Abuse

Since he is a sleeping fund manager, he thinks he deserve this RM28 million management fee.
If this RM 28 million is properly utilized as share buy back at a average price of RM2.40 per share, about 11.6 million shares will be reduce is the market float.
The gap between the share price and NAV will definitely be closer, giving better return to share owner instead of going into his pocket.

Posted by bsngpg > 2014-11-24 23:01 | Report Abuse

You are one of the very respected and rational blogger/writer thus I am very sure that you allow different opinion, don't you?
My opinions:
1) there is always a black swan especially in the very volatile share market.
Holding too much cash in the last five years is tantamount to not doing a good job ? But ironically i read from media that there were many people expressed very deep regret in each bear market that they did not spare money to buy the damp cheap shares during the bear market.

2) 5 years with low return vs klci yet drawing big fee is "not good"?
How about let's compare it to investment in new palm oil plantation. Millions of RM was spent in five years yet return was merely break even in year 5, yet the CEO and mgt still drawing big fee. Ironically, people still pump in tone of money into new plantation estate ? Why?
It is a long term game.

3) Chinese proverb says "hundred flowers blossom together". I do respect TTB's strategy as one of the money making strategies among many others. If cannot agree with him, you are not asked to join.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-24 23:27 | Report Abuse

Instead of paying 28 million fees to sleeping TTB, I believe this amount is more than enough for other fund managers who are more willing and seriously to look after the interest of shareholders of icap. Perhaps NAV may more and not stuck around $2.9 to$3.09.

Posted by ZakKen > 2014-11-25 03:16 | Report Abuse

MG9231, I don't know where you got the figure of 28 mil fees in total since 2011 from? I looked at the financials and management fees for 1 year up to 31 May, 2014 came up to RM3.1 mil. Can you let us know your source please?

Posted by kcchongnz > 2014-11-25 03:25 | Report Abuse

Posted by bsngpg > Nov 24, 2014 11:01 PM | Report Abuse

"You are one of the very respected and rational blogger/writer thus I am very sure that you allow different opinion, don't you?"

Of course, I like feedback, especially the opposite constructive feedback. and I like to be direct too, and not beating around the bush. Pardon me if i offend you.


The main issue I think is who is the employer and the employed. You shouldn't ridicule the very people with the hands which feed you. Do you shout at your boss, or put up notice and sent letters to all other employees telling about his fault and ask them to reject him, when he asks you why you may have done something not right. Do you tell your boss to get lost from the company if he doesn't like the way you work?

The other issue is fund managers must be candid. If you have made a wrong investing decision, just say so and i think most shareholders will understand. Even Warren Buffett and Charles Munger apologize for making investing mistakes in every general meeting. Instead he gives all kind of excuses market going to collapse lah etc every year. And mind you, he was wrong for years.

1) What is the purpose of a manged fund then if not investing in the stock market? What is value investing, the very principle the fund manager professes? Value investors like Seth Klarmen, Howard Marks etc hold huge amount of cash, but that is during market euphoria. In other times, they are invested, making huge return for shareholders. They don't look at macro and politics too much and don't predict what the market directions are.

Give me a vote here. Does TTB behaving like a market timer or a value investor for the last 5 years?

2) I invest in the market and hope for good return. I have no interest investing directly into a business, such as a palm oil plantation. Investing is a long term endeavor, no doubt about it. But isn't 5 years under-performance is quite a while and suffice an admission of error in judgment, instead of asking the shareholders, his very own boss to get lost if he doesn't like what he is doing each time when he is questioned?

3) Tell me, what is TTB's investing strategy these five years? Has he been making extra-ordinary return for the shareholders the last 5 years? Is 5 years too short. Again this may not be the main issue. the main issue is what you imitate what he says here,

"If cannot agree with him, you are not asked to join."

I have the right to buy or sell any public listed stock. and If I become a shareholder, I pay him, not he pays me.

Do I have to listen to him whom he wants to put in the board of directors to take care of my interest?

I would like to reiterate here, I am investing, not hero worshiping.

Posted by ZakKen > 2014-11-25 03:46 | Report Abuse

Part of being a good fund manager is also knowing when to sit tight. It is not only buying and selling constantly to feel like you are doing something or worse, to show that you are doing something.

iCap is meant to be a long-term fund. Since TTB is the designated fund manager, it is his prerogative to feel that the general market is overvalued and to wait for a better opportunity to get better value. Just because he has been slowly moving to cash doesn't mean he has been "doing nothing". Even great value and contrarian investors like Steven Romick and Joel Greenblatt say that sitting patiently is the hardest part, while all the time behind-the-scenes work is still going on identifying and keeping abreast of stocks to be scooped up when a major correction comes and "value" returns.

If TTB has been moving into cash, it means he is expecting a major correction. iCap was set up to invest in undervalued stocks. Not to buy up its own shares. If he did share buybacks constantly, commenters here would then accuse him of taking the lazy way out.

In a falling general market, all stocks will be affected. If spare cash is used up now to buy back its own shares at RM2.40 and it falls to for eg. RM2.00 when market tanks, everyone will then start blaming him for doing share buybacks. Worse, cash which would otherwise have been available to capitalise on cheaper stocks which have returned to value would not be available anymore due to those confounded buybacks. Tell me, should a smart value fund manager do such a thing? Especially when you are expecting a major correction?

However, I do agree that he seems pretty arrogant sometimes. I don't know what happened at the AGM. I hope kcchong manages to get the answers he is seeking, but that is a separate matter. By the way kc, I respect your investment views and opinions. You are one of the best around.

Posted by soojinhou > 2014-11-25 05:48 | Report Abuse

Easy to settle. Have other value oriented funds, such as Birkshire Hathaway been buying for the last 5 years or also waiting for market to crash? http://www.gurufocus.com/StockBuy.php?GuruName=Warren+Buffett&menujump=%252Fmodules%252Fstock%252Fstockbuy_ajax.php%253Fguruname%253Dwarren+buffett&action=-1%2527&cache=clear&order=impact&updown=down&p=0 Follow the link for answer, 'nuff said

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-25 08:09 | Report Abuse

Zalken,
Fund management fees + investment advisory fees from year 2011 to 2014 amounted 23.2 million.
A huge amount of $700,000 advertising fees which never exist in previous few years appear in 2014. What sort of advertising fees required when the fund is almost in hyper nation.
So, total up is about 24million.
The point I try to highlight is how much investors of icap gain in term of share value in contrast to the fees paid to its fund manager since 2011.
Sorry for 4 million discrepancy.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-25 08:22 | Report Abuse

If you own a company, you see your employees drawing a big fat salary but end result for last couple of years not performing whereas owners of company in the similar trade making tons of money, can't you confront your employees?

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-25 08:23 | Report Abuse

Let your employes tell you off?

Posted by murali > 2014-11-25 08:29 | Report Abuse

TTB is our God and we cannot question him....instead we have to pray to him 3 times a day...If TTB told us this is nothing to buy since few years ago then there is nothing to buy...He is Malaysian Warren Buffettand he can never be wrong....We have no issue on all the interest income earned on our cash holdings goes into TTB's pocket coz he is our God...if you dont like it sell it and get lost...just like you dont like our government here you can get lost...

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-25 08:30 | Report Abuse

As the owner, you even go to extent suggest either return back money to owners in the form of dividend or share buy but all sorts of excuses were given to brush you off or refuse to come to your point of suggestion. Instead ridicule you with petty issues.

Posted by murali > 2014-11-25 08:33 | Report Abuse

I will also brainwash my Boss on TTB's story...I will ask him to get lost if he is not happy with my sales these few years....he has to bear in mind that I did a wonderful sales in year 2009-2011...how can him questioned my sales these few years???? The margin is too small so I would rather reduce or stop selling and wait for my competitors to close shop then profit margin shall improve and i will sell more then...of course Boss still have to pay me salary and fat bonus....

Posted by murali > 2014-11-25 08:35 | Report Abuse

But I think most likely I will get fired soon...how unfair...

Posted by Boon3 > 2014-11-25 08:40 | Report Abuse

Great points kcchongnz! (saw your posting from a lowyat forum link, thanks to yhtan)

Especially on the point of hero worshiping.

A fund's main asset is the fund manager and since it's an listed stock (as a closed end fund) anyone (not only shareholders) have the right to question Teng Boo's characteristics and what he does and doesn't do.

Yes, anyone.

Me? I am not a shareholder but as a market player (trader) I have the right to be a prospective trader (or speculator or investor or whatever) of the stock. I have the right to know and to question the fund and it's fundmanger before I make any decision.

Same applies for anyone else.

You said the following:

Quote : Since 5 years ago, the stock markets worldwide recovered by leaps and bounds, the share price of icap only increased by a mere 33.7%, or a compounded annual rate (CAR) of just 6%. In contrast, KLCI went up by 42.4%. With dividend of say 3% a year, the total return of KLCI is 49% for the last 5 years. Don’t tell me I should be basing on NAV and not share price, because it is the same as the gap between share price and NAV is still as wide as ever.

Is a CAR of 6% for the last 5 years so fantastic for you that you have to shout down your fellow shareholder when the fund manager was questioned by him during the last saga? Aren’t you one of the shareholder too?

end Quote.

Now I like to highlight another point.

We all know that Teng Boo charges the fund two fee charges, ie fund management fee and investment advisory fee.

Now I would like to draw attention to the fees charged to the fund since 2009.

From 2009 annual report, his fund management fee is 1,747,606, investment advisory fee is also 1,747,606
From 2010 annual report, his fund management fee is 2,018,550, investment advisory fee is also 2,018,550
From 2012 annual report, his fund management fee is 2,894,863, investment advisory fee is also 2,894,863
From 2013 report, his fund management fee is 3,089,891 investment advisory fee is also 3,089,891
From 2014 annual report, his fund management fee is 3,109,491, investment fee is also 3,109,481

Adding it all up for simple viewing...

Total fees for 2009 is 3,495,212
Total fees for 2010 is 4,037,100
Total fees for 2012 is 5,789,726
Total fees for 2013 is 6,179,782
Total fees for 2014 is 6,218,982

Current total of all fees collected since 2009: 25,720,802

Total fees have increased 2,723,770 since 2009.
In terms of percentage?
That's 77.9%!!!

Ohhhh Emmmmmmm GGGGGGGG!!!!

Pheeeeewwiiiitttt !!!!!!

Teng Boo wins liao !!!!

How well did you say the fund has did since 2009????

If I am a shareholder, I would ask him...... How come ah?


* by the way.
The fund was started at a great time.
Stocks were dirt cheap.
During his early years, just after he started the fund, didn't he said that he reckon that KLSE would be more than 2000 pts? (point to ponder)
Anyway, as we all know, the fund did superbly in the early years.
Well done Teng Boo.
When 2010 came, and IF I was Teng Boo, I would also not be stupid and be cunning, and I would have done what Teng Boo did.
That was the right strategy.
I got my big gains.
So I too, will adopt a cash heavy strategy.
If the market moves higher, my gains will gain bigger.
If the market moves south, by being cash heavy, I could pick up more cheap stocks.
Either way I win.
Risk free too.
Why risk my reputation by buying more stocks when I am sitting on a big gain?
I certainly believe that Teng Boo do not want to see another horror story like the 10million PLUS losses in a single stock as suffered previously in Axiata debacle.
And not forgetting, I get to collect my fees!
Yes, I would adopt the same strategy like Teng Boo.

Posted by Jonathan Keung > 2014-11-25 08:43 | Report Abuse

i.cap may not be the best performing stock but nonetheless it's best ttb can address the shareholders queries. all shareholders need to be more pro-active in attending Co's AGM

Posted by murali > 2014-11-25 08:45 | Report Abuse

Boon3, precisely...couldn't agree with you more

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-25 09:48 | Report Abuse

Boon3,
You are outsider, yet you can see the icap's cash drained off so clearly. I must salute you.
But what about his die hard supporters? When he mentioned to them sit down and wait and treat icap investment as long term investment, they happily accept the facts without second thought.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-25 10:06 | Report Abuse

I doubt if market not crash in next few years, there will be no margin of safety, how long more can his die hard supporters sustain and wait before all their hair turns whiter.

Posted by chyokh > 2014-11-25 13:00 | Report Abuse

If a fund manager makes money for his shareholders, its OK to charge management fees. But if he does nothing for years on end but sit on cash and hold an annual investor day (what is the point if you do not invest in anything?), is it OK to charge millions in fees. Shareholders must question this during the EGM....or are they so blind with hero worshipping that they cannot see. In the long run, we are all dead. How long do you want to wait?

Posted by kcchongnz > 2014-11-25 13:15 | Report Abuse

Posted by MG9231 > Nov 24, 2014 09:34 PM | Report Abuse
Just a reminder to all attendees , while you speak, if any of TTB supporters yell at you and ask you to leave, we can suggest to them to snap a photo of TTB and worship him at home.

What? The majority of the investors in icap has become a cult or what? Hero worshiping and cult culture is detrimental to your investing outcome.

I kind of believe what Boon3 said below. that is the peril of agency problem when we depend someone and hope that he takes care of our interest.

"I got my big gains.
So I too, will adopt a cash heavy strategy.
If the market moves higher, my gains will gain bigger.
If the market moves south, by being cash heavy, I could pick up more cheap stocks.
Either way I win.
Risk free too.
Why risk my reputation by buying more stocks when I am sitting on a big gain?
I certainly believe that Teng Boo do not want to see another horror story like the 10million PLUS losses in a single stock as suffered previously in Axiata debacle.
And not forgetting, I get to collect my fees!
Yes, I would adopt the same strategy like Teng Boo."

Well the good thing is you are the shareholders of a listed company, you have a voting right.

Posted by cannottahan > 2014-11-25 13:47 | Report Abuse

Actually the point here is so simple
Being a shareholder, he/she had absolute right to vote for or against any resolution
And that requires NO explanation at all.

Posted by Kevin Wong > 2014-11-25 14:51 | Report Abuse

Unlike migrating to another country or changing our jobs, it's so much easier to switch our investments to any one of the more than 1,000 counters listed in Bursa. If TTB continue to disappoint his investors, just a matter of time before his most ardent supporters would abandon him!
By the way, i own 100 shares in iCap.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-25 16:18 | Report Abuse

Cannotahan,
Not just that, we can also make suggestion to icap board of directors to kick out drawing 7 million fees yet shameless, dishonest and sleepy fund manager for his underperformance in last 4 years by replacing any other fund manager who are diligently taking care of shareholders interst.

Posted by chyokh > 2014-11-25 17:36 | Report Abuse

You put money in the bank, the bank pay you interest. You put money in icap, TTB also puts it in the bank. The thing is that you got to pay TTB to put money in the bank. Something is not right here.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-25 18:30 | Report Abuse

Hahaha, what wonderful joke for a day!

Posted by ykloh > 2014-11-25 19:42 | Report Abuse

Is TTB a director of icap? If he is, is that not a situation of conflict of interest since he is being paid, handsomely at that, in a professional capacity but at that same time he is in control of every aspect of icap, apparently including selection/appointment of directors.

TTB has been running icap for too long. Its time to change the fund manager. If that is not possible, then shareholders should take step to dissolve the fund. I hope there is no golden parachute for him if the fund is dissolved.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-25 20:20 | Report Abuse

Posted by ardourboy > Nov 23, 2014 09:04 PM | Report Abuse

Kindly be reminded that Mr. Tan is actually employed to work for I-CAP, however, it seems he is the only key person that gets to decide whom to sit on the board of directors, and history has shown he does not welcome any other person other than his own selection. This worries me a lot, that this will jeopardize the interest of shareholders, where even the major shareholder's sole purpose is to safe guard their investment is being denied by Mr. Tan.

It is very serious that Mr.Tan only holds 1% of I-CAP shares, but he has exerted more controlling power and dominate the I-CAP than combined Laxey Partners and City of London of 12%.

Posted by Kevin Wong > 2014-11-25 20:58 | Report Abuse

I tthink many investors of iCap are just being grateful to TTB,they might be what he term as 'old fools', but his loyal and faithful supporters are definitely no 'great fools'! As i'm sure they love their money more than TTB.

Posted by klsetitan > 2014-11-25 22:27 | Report Abuse

Many of d shareholders "the old fools" u wanna call them are scare to death if TTB no longer manage d fund, want or don't want he is d key person n he has the "absolute" power n u js have to pay him even he is not performing.. As simple as that.

Posted by gkheng > 2014-11-25 22:47 | Report Abuse

easy, u just need god, somewhere, anywhere, or everywhere. he filled the void.

Posted by stockoperator > 2014-11-26 09:59 | Report Abuse

i think it is fair to say that funds need to be appropriately managed to generate better results.

One way to do it is Surely continuously look out for great company at bargain Buy in good or bad times. So there is No excuse of market timing.

Once the Candidate is identified, Fund manager can either use the cash on hand, Or Rebalancing the portfolio. The Best would still be Add in the Winner and Take out the Losers while maintaining the optimum cash level of 10%-20%.

You cant excuse yourself to say there is no Value Buy in the past 5 years.

Posted by stockoperator > 2014-11-26 10:38 | Report Abuse

We can Disagree on Valuation Method, Time Horizon, cash optimum level and host of other issues.

BUT We can agree on Buying into Great Business at good pricing without increase the risk level.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-26 10:44 | Report Abuse

Stockoperator, that should be the function of a fund manager. Unless, he forecast the market is at the extreme high side, excessive cash should not be kept in the bank but should be deployed to generate higher NAV.
Don't tell me our respected KC Chong ,i3 investors forumer ,can pick quite a numbers of valued stock with returns of some even exceeding 100% since 2010, where else icap fund manager TTB claimed that stocks from the the same market is overvalued in the same period?
In the past few years, I have attended a few speakers from various funds houses listening to their quarterly market outlook, ,most of the speakers higlighted the world economy is moving in positive directions and is getting better since 2010. They encourage me to load up in equity market.
That is the reason I dare to say icap hundred manager is sleeping on his job.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-26 10:53 | Report Abuse

To simplify, when a fund manager has reached his conform zone, 7million fees per annum, you cannot expect him to lead the fund, he has no fighting spirit, if you ask him to continue his job, he will take the easy way out.
One suggesting,, the fund is to split into 2 portions, engage 2 fund managers let them compete among themselves.

Posted by MG9231 > 2014-11-26 11:10 | Report Abuse

Immediate after sub prime, Pintaras bhd's boss loaded his company's excess fund and allocated to 2 fund boutique fund houses , one is Singular Assets management, the other is Pheim Assets management, both of the fund houses helps to generate a substantial returns for the company since 2010 . What else can our sleepy TTB fund manager say?