Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-26 23:36 | Report Abuse

This remind me of an OB class on paradigm

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/paradigm-shift--352828952039869457/

Do we see a young lady or an old ugly lady?

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-26 23:36 | Report Abuse

This remind me of an OB class on paradigm

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/paradigm-shift--352828952039869457/

Do we see a young lady or an old ug_ly lady?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2024-01-26 23:50 | Report Abuse

One after another, the Singaporean CEF's all went into members voluntary liquidation. Proactive management? To the big banks, the fee income from managing the CEF's are rounding errors on their P&L, better to have happy sharehlders than grumpy ones.

Posted by Patient Investor > 2024-01-27 07:53 | Report Abuse

So why COL keeps buying? They can buy into other open end funds. Why still buying into a close end fund that some claimed has bad governance and having drama? I see it as action speaks louder than words.

Open end fund doesn’t fit long term value investment philosophy as the fund will be forced to unload and miss opportunity grabbing up bargains when shareholders are in panic situation.
How many percent of public investor is making decent returns over long term? Very little. How many losing a great deal of money over long term? Plenty!


Personal opinion:
“ for iCap shareholders who want to sell, why not take advantage of the situation by queuing at high price as close as possible to NAV. Since COL keeps buying even the row with the fund manner, it means they need to buy, so let’s take advantage of it.”

Posted by Patient Investor > 2024-01-27 08:17 | Report Abuse

dumbmoney,
Since you know beforehand its common a CEF will be traded at discount @ NAV, why had you bought into icap and try to get elected to board?

Did you read the prospectus beforehand? Does your action fit the interest of the majority public investors and the investment goal in the prospectus?

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 09:13 | Report Abuse

Drama was created by TTB.... If he didn't overblown the issues. The issue would have died after the AGM.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 09:15 | Report Abuse

If he didn't take COL to the court, no drama.

If no escalation on SICDA, also no drama.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 09:27 | Report Abuse

Nobody happy with Insas that sells at a deep discount...some try to push to unlock the value but with not much success. The owner was just passive.... Somehow sudden volume spike triggered the demand for such value play in our bolehland now.... Price is catching up with the value. There is also more awareness on such deep discounts exist attracts investors and speculators alike. Price goes up, price comes down, life goes on. The difference is these onwers will not claim they are better than the best - - an invitation to challenge. 😂😂

Posted by dumbMoney > 2024-01-27 12:18 | Report Abuse

If people want to think that the introduction of the new fangled dividend policy is out of the kindness of management's heart, that's no skin off my back. It is not like after so many years with just two special dividends, management woke up one morning and decided that maybe a dividend policy is a good thing for shareholders and became proactive. As to why I buy iCap, if I can make 40% returns within 6 months, why not? Like they say, no difference between black cat and white cat, as long as it can catch the mouse, I don't discriminate between long term and short term profits. Profit is profit, money I can bank in, not money I can see but cannot touch.

Posted by Patient Investor > 2024-01-27 13:07 | Report Abuse

@dumbmoney
Well, since your intention is not aligned with majority public shareholders, and consider against the mission of the fund during establishment. I think its pretty normal for the fund manager to view you as a threat to the fund and other shareholders.

Why not just move your capital elsewhere? maybe get FastMoney to manage on your behalf which yield 40% in one quarter. That's a win-win-win for 3 parties.

Personal opinion:
“ for iCap shareholders who want to sell, why not take advantage of the situation by queuing at high price as close as possible to NAV. Since COL keeps buying even the row with the fund manner, it means they need to buy, so let’s take advantage of that. ”

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 13:41 | Report Abuse

Haha... The other way round... Should let dumbMoney manage... my was a fluke... Thanks to SSLee brought up the idea of Insas. I was skeptical at first but pure luck.

It just rocketed... In a bull market... Normal...

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 13:43 | Report Abuse

After made enough money if iCap still sell for 40% discount... Park the money again in iCap... Buy at 40% discount sell at 20% discount cukup lo

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 13:43 | Report Abuse

But make sure TTB don't suka suka do what he wants

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 13:44 | Report Abuse

😂😂

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 13:46 | Report Abuse

Calvin also posted JTiasa here, a fallen growth stock... Borrow a lot of miney to expand met with unlucky collapsed of CPO, workers and fertiliser costs.... Now it's a lot more favourable

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 13:48 | Report Abuse

OSK was even more ridiculous, PE5, DY 5%, P/BK 0.50....

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 13:49 | Report Abuse

Many undervalued situations but fund managers at one time claim nothing to buy, stay with 50% cash

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 13:54 | Report Abuse

You see many people keep pointing out there are many alternatives in this iCap forum.... Cox they want to give alternatives.... Outside iCap, many oysters out day... Question is, are we open minded enough? Not need to stick to 1 guru, 1 style but bottomline must be grounded on fundamentals.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 13:58 | Report Abuse

The way I see, it's NIH syndrome... NOT Invented Here Syndrome... Sometimes thing is the same, they like to differentiate for the sake of diffentiate. Value investing is value investing but why call bamboo value investing?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2024-01-27 14:13 | Report Abuse

@Patient Investor If people don't make noise here, you think you will get your dividend policy today? There is no free lunch in this world. You have to fight for it. But whatever goodwill created, blew it with the foreign shareholding limit. Management woke up one fine morning and discovered they have this prescribed limit that can keep the foreigners at bay, after being blissfully ignorant of its existence all this while. What other hidden gems in the company's closet can they find next? A clause in the constitution that says members can only sell their shares after at least 10 years of ownership, or above a certain price discount? After all, it is stated in the company's prospectus that it is for long term investors who want to compound capital gains, so fast money types are not welcome. But COL has been around for more than 10 years!

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 14:45 | Report Abuse

Yaya... By right I should be the one to be shot at sight but everytime dumbMoney kena kaw kaw... 😂😂

Posted by observatory > 2024-01-27 15:42 | Report Abuse

I hope Malaysia could emulate US investing scene. We should have activist investors to shake up complacent and self interested management for the benefits of all shareholders.

The father of value investing, Benjamin Graham, famously asked in 1932 “Is American Business Worth More Dead than Alive?”

The same question applies to ICAP today.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2024-01-27 15:43 | Report Abuse

@FastMoney, A shareholder activist can either wear it like be a badge of honour, or like a bulls eye on the back for people to shoot at. Overall, it is the results that count, and I am OK with the results so far. Like iCap being the only CEF in the country, I am the only minority shareholder who convinced PNB to liquidate a public listed property trust and made shareholders whole instead of suffering chronic discount. In Singapore, I won't dare to claim the credit, but at least I threw the first stone at the CEF's there that led to their ultimate demise. For all these, I got equal billing with a multi billion fund manager, not bad for a one man show.

Posted by observatory > 2024-01-27 15:49 | Report Abuse

Story of Benjamin Graham shaked up Northern Pipeline
https://www.businessinsider.com/benjamin-graham-was-the-first-shareholder-activist-2016-6

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 16:14 | Report Abuse

@dumbMoney - - when you convinced PNB the majority owndr and also a decision maker it's a rational thing to do especially of their embarrassing performance, you were welcomed with an open arm.

In iCap no clear major controlling shareholders like close to 50%, it's a very difficult to do. In the event of COL continue to buy till 50%, 70 million shares, at most it can overturn many ordinary resolutions but not special resolutions. Was not really sure what is COL exit strategy. They met with immovable rock and continue to double down may not be viable.

iCap still got many of top 30 shareholders loyal to TTB been through thick and thin. Also many uncles and aunties with 100 k shares. Though some exited or flip, it's still not enough to finish this worth dead than alive.

Stout iCap followers is treating it like a religion.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 16:17 | Report Abuse

So iCap at best it's only an oppotunistic play not a value play.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 16:18 | Report Abuse

They are perfectly happy with the money can see but cannot touch.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 16:27 | Report Abuse

The perspective whether shareholders happy with iCap return will depend on their entry price those bought during IPO $1, at last traded price, 2.84, to them still okay. Those bought at 40% discounts, they still can smile. But those group aro $2 got stuck since 2012-2014, this group has plenty of grievances.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 16:33 | Report Abuse

In my opinion, COL is too soft. Should they are really a lot more aggressive like being painted by TTB or Patient Investor, things will be a lot more exciting or attracts other sharks to finish iCap.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 16:35 | Report Abuse

I bet if COL is really firing the shots, attract another 3-5 sharks with 5-10% ownership, iCap is finished. Game over

Posted by Patient Investor > 2024-01-27 16:53 | Report Abuse

@FastMoney
Before labelling me aggressive, you should count the number of post both you and dumb made in icap forum as compare to me.

How can COL fire shots? their own performance is worse than icap, AGM also dont attend. COL has the capital, just they alway want to accumulate at discount to maximise profit potential.

Personal opinion:
“ for iCap shareholders who want to sell, why not take advantage of the situation by queuing at high price as close as possible to NAV. Since COL keeps buying even the row with the fund manner, it means they need to buy, so let’s take advantage of that. ”

Posted by dumbMoney > 2024-01-27 17:16 | Report Abuse

@FastMoney I won't say PNB welcomed me with open arms, but at least, with professional courtesy. When I first presented the proposed liquidation resolution to them supported by 10% shareholders, they said, sorry, they are organised as a trust, not a company, so governed by the trust deed, not the Companies Act, and the trust deed's requirement is just 50 shareholders to propose a resolution, not the standard 10% shareholdings. So I wasted more than a year collecting the shares quietly when all I needed was to round up 50 names. Lesson learned, first thing, read the company's M&A first for any booby traps. After that, things went smoothly, they even drafted the meeting chairman's speech for me and made me chair the EGM. PNB was targeted because under the old property trusts regime, before they became REITs, shareholders linked to the trust manager cannot vote under SC rules. So even though they have more shares than my group, it did not matter. But I have to take my hat to them, because under the trust deed, there was a minimum quorum of 20% of shareholders for general meetings, and surprise surprise, less than 20% outside shareholders turned up, so the meeting would have failed if PNB did not sign in the attendance list to make up the numbers, even though they cannot vote and it is their fund that was being liquidated. But PNB was looking at it more as a shareholder than a fund manager. Instead of having it marked to market at 50% discount, they can realise full value for their various unit trusts that are the shareholders. But most of all, it saved PNB the embarrassment of having to admit failure and wind up its own fund, unlike the Singapore CEFs where the banks themselves proposed the liquidation, not outside shareholders.

Posted by Sslee > 2024-01-27 17:40 | Report Abuse

Any chance TTB wake up one fine morning and be as magnanimous as PNB to propose a liquidation resolution for shareholders to decide whether to support or oppose the liquidation proposal during the next AGM?

Posted by stockraider > 2024-01-27 17:55 | Report Abuse

Many prominent value investors value insas differently loh!

1. Sifu Sslee Target Rm 1.50.
2. Insas Eps 18.2 @ pe 12x = Rm 2.20.
3.Ahmoi the best friend of Ahfah in Pasar Pudu Rm 3.00.
4. Nta of insas exclude all the potential hidden gain Rm 3.56
5. Ahfah the investment queen in pasar Pudu Rm 3.90 to Rm 4.80
6. Tong Kooi Ong of Edge Rm 4.33
7. Leno Rm 6.00 and Rm60.00
8. General Raider Rm 7.00 to Rm 8.00

People always think of getting or hoping a new major shareholder, unlocking the hidden value of insas loh!

The truth is Thong is quietly unlocking value stealthly without people noticing mah!

Once people realized this.....there will be chasing Insas above Rm 3.00 loh!

Lu tau boh ah ???

" Insas strength is a very strong incubator of business loh!"

Thats why u have Inari, M&A in respect of Insas & Microlink in respect of Omesti loh!

All these private equity type of business had contributed billions of profit to insas mah!

In fact Insas is a msia equivalent of Black Rock & Goldman Sachs of the USA loh!


"The story of Ahfah a successful Pudu mkt vegetable seller, making big in her Insas & insas-w loh!

Ahfah had been holding more than 400k of insas at average cost at 75 sen and warrant 450k at average cost at 25 sen for more than 3 yrs had hit jackpot recently loh!

She had followed raider & gang buying into insas & she has faith to hang tight not only bcos, she trust raider but her deep believe in the good financial figure of insas never lies loh!

Her long patiencely wait for insas certainly payoff loh! Despite Insas broke out above high of Rm 1.00, she did not sold a lot of insas, bcos like raider she believe in insas will worth much more given time loh!

Not many of her peers in pudu mkt is successful bcos many do not have the patience to hold tight & easily jolted to sell when insas share price came down loh!

For example her best friend ahmoi follow her to buy Insas 300k at 80 sen.....immediately sold down, when insas when hit 90sen to Rm 1.00 loh!

Luckily due to her best friend scolding for selling insas too early....Ahmoi still manage to hold back 100k of precious Insas loh!

Ahmoi says i swear to God, that i will not sell anymore of insas, if it is still below rm 3.00 or unless ahfah start selling loh!

The Pudu mkt is active loh.....beside people buying vegetables....alot of them are talking about insas share loh!

Alot of people want to buy insas, but they are afraid bcos the price has risen loh!

Not many people are so lucky like ahfah sitting on big gain of insas without selling loh!"

Raider answer to the dilema of Ahfah & his followers is to get your bearing of investment valuation of Insas Right mah!

With proper valuation of Insas you are not afraid n confident to hold on to Insas loh!

Posted by dumbMoney > 2024-01-27 19:17 | Report Abuse

In case people ask, these are legitimate and accepted ways to manage the price discounts as published in iCap's prospectus. If these are now considered destructive for the company, why print it in the first place, as it can be considered misrepresentation? https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fn4ajoxeuceukicni72j3/iCap-prospectus-managing-discount.pdf?rlkey=vwuenek9ns6ejtnh9ry3gmv6j&dl=0

Posted by observatory > 2024-01-27 20:26 | Report Abuse

“Active shareholders may attempt to realise the full value of the CEF by proposing a share repurchase, conversion to an open-end structure, takeover or liquidation.”

Well said.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 20:34 | Report Abuse

@Patient Investor -

>>>>>
How can COL fire shots? their own performance is worse than icap, AGM also dont attend. COL has the capital, just they alway want to accumulate at discount to maximise profit potential.

>>>>

Good question - how COL can fire the shot? So passive.

Good luck to them. It's them that need to answer to their shareholders.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 20:40 | Report Abuse

@Sslee
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Any chance TTB wake up one fine morning and be as magnanimous as PNB to propose a liquidation resolution for shareholders to decide whether to support or oppose the liquidation proposal during the next AGM?

>>>>>>>>>

Me: Probability - ZERO chance.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 20:42 | Report Abuse

@ dumbMoney.

Funny. Absolutely didn't expect it to be in the prospectus..boomerang😂😂😂

>>>>
In case people ask, these are legitimate and accepted ways to manage the price discounts as published in iCap's prospectus. If these are now considered destructive for the company, why print it in the first place, as it can be considered misrepresentation?
>>>>>

Posted by dumbMoney > 2024-01-27 23:05 | Report Abuse

@FastMoney When you are sick and you don't take your medication, how to get well? Same for the price discount, there are ways to address the discount problem and you choose to ignore them, how not to stay discounted? And then you accuse the people who suggested you do something as being destructive. Now the discount may be secondary for management compared to the foreign shareholding limit litigation.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-27 23:26 | Report Abuse

The prescription was there in the prospectus, perhaps if COL didn't buy into iCAP, TTB will take many of the remedies according to his playbook in the prospectus. He just beh shiok because it was suggested by others, especially he has identified them as sworn enemies. The case studies in the prospectus showed it could help to narrow the discounts but cannot eliminate with varying degrees of effectiveness but certainly is better than do nothing. But telling people it is destructive, he just have to eat every words in the prospectus he has written. 😂😂

Posted by Sslee > 2024-01-28 08:50 | Report Abuse

Poor performance of icap share price

In the first 26 months since listing, the fund obtained a total return more than 3 times that of the broad market. The fund manager of icap is definitely not a bad investor. The Achilles heel of the fund manager was psychological, his prolonged fear of adverse macro events, and keeping large amount of fund un-invested. From year 2013 to 2021, the fund manager kept most of the assets of icap in cash, instead of investing in shares as a fund manager supposed to do. In 2016, more than 70% of the assets of icap were kept as cash.

While icap kept much of its assets in cash, the broad FBMKLCI shot up from 864 points to 1887 points in 5 years from 2009 to 2014, and then some corrections due to the oil crisis. Then from 2016 to 2019, I remember it was a good time picking stocks in Bursa.

I personally had made good return during these periods. I believe, if icap was fully invested, which as a managed fund should do, its NAV would have grown a lot more.

Posted by Sslee > 2024-01-28 08:54 | Report Abuse

https://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/2024-01-28-story-h-190145875-Is_Icap_biz_still_worth_investing_kcchongnz.jsp

Posted by Patient Investor > 2024-01-28 09:25 | Report Abuse

For iCap shareholders who want to sell, take advantage of the situation by queuing at high price as close as possible to NAV.

Why?
1. Despite being accused of poor governance and lousy fund management/policy by few in this forum for many years, COL is still buying.
2. Since COL keeps buying even the row with the fund manner, it means they need to buy, so take advantage when demand is there.
3. If someone is bidding for the rights to slaughter our goose and if lucky we get a fair portion of the egg but none after that, wont you want a premium to it?

Posted by stockraider > 2024-01-28 11:25 | Report Abuse

To be fair , ever since that icap came out with an innovative dividend formula, icap share price had improved considerably mah!

Posted by JohnD0ugh > 2024-01-29 00:48 | Report Abuse

Closed-end funds are typically launched when the stock market is exciting. This is understandable, as it is difficult to raise the desired funds during poor market conditions.

In addition, right from the very outset of its initial public offering in 2005, I wanted to appeal only to a certain type of investors to icapital.biz Berhad and hence requested that I directed the initial public offering.

Consequently, shareholders in icapital.biz Berhad have been referred to referred to as share owners. As we explained in the first annual report, "holding" implies something transitory while "owning" implies a more permanent state of affairs, just like a business or property owner is not described as a holder but as an owner.

Eventually, the initial public offering of icapital.biz Berhad took place in less than exciting times. As a value investor, this was intentional.

However, despite local stock market conditions that were not buoyant, the offering of icapital. biz Berhad was heavily oversubscribed, illustrating the sophistication and wisdom of many investors then.

In addition, unlike many closed-end funds that trade at market prices below their net asset values, icapital.biz Berhad traded at a premium after its listing, once again testifying to the soundness of value investing and the wisdom of investors.

For icapital.biz Berhad to close on its first day of listing in 2005 at a premium to its NAV was a huge achievement and beyond the wildest expectation of many people.

Given how hard Capital Dynamics and I worked and the strategy I deployed in making sure that icapital.biz Berhad appealed only to the right investors, the premium to NAV was not a surprise. As we quoted Buffett in our 2007 annual report, "The key to a rational stock price is rational shareholders, both current and prospective ........."


i Capital.biz Berhad 2023 Annual Report

Posted by dumbMoney > 2024-01-29 09:11 | Report Abuse

A rational shareholder buys at a discount and sells at a premium, an irrational shareholder does the opposite, buys at a premium and sells at a discount. For the greater part of its listing life, the share has been trading at a discount, go figure. Rational or irrational?

Posted by Patient Investor > 2024-01-29 09:18 | Report Abuse

So all those who sell to COL are irrational, so lets alert them to be rational.

For iCap shareholders who want to sell, take advantage of the situation by queuing at high price as close as possible to NAV, or even at a premium.

Why?
1. Despite being accused of poor governance and lousy fund management/policy by few in this forum for many years, COL is still buying.
2. Since COL keeps buying even the row with the fund manner, it means they need to buy, so take advantage when demand is there.
3. If someone is bidding for the rights to slaughter our goose and if lucky we get a fair portion of the egg but none after that, wont you want a premium to it?

Posted by Sslee > 2024-01-29 09:26 | Report Abuse

Anyone know why TTB suffered this psychological prolonged fear of adverse macro events, and keeping large amount of fund un-invested. From year 2013 to 2021, the fund manager kept most of the assets of icap in cash?

Posted by Patient Investor > 2024-01-29 10:35 | Report Abuse

@Sslee if not mistaken, the increase in cash pile was due to unloading a holdings that realize huge profit. Valuation that factors in macro uncertainties may lead to retaining of the high level of cash.