Posted by nhy6 > 2012-11-08 15:35 | Report Abuse

and ya all information is clearly available on icapital.biz and also on their facebook page facebook.com/CapitalDynamics i could find all the information there

Posted by nhy6 > 2012-11-08 15:35 | Report Abuse

n since lunch onle i hve been seing the FB n i read all ur comments sometimes u guys are just high ;)

Posted by hooi > 2012-11-08 16:21 | Report Abuse

Bought Icap at 2.46

Posted by kcchongnz > 2012-11-08 16:30 | Report Abuse

nhy6, good for you to post icap's response letter. Those are what TTB said. But what is your point of view on those? We want the best for ourselves, like you said. I have read it and here is my point of view.
Massive discount
•Who cares about the “massive” premium of icap share price TTB talks about years ago. What we are concern is now!
•I know that icap NAV outperform KLCI by 115% but we are not talking about it. We are talking about please do something about the discount of icap share price wrt NAV.
Fees
Total management expenses last year is 6.93 m, or 1.73% of AUM. Not a lot compared to unit trust funds, but also very good reward for Capital Dynamic, considering the expense is almost totally on administrative, as nothing much is done on picking stocks the whole year.
Closing discount
•Share buyback when sold at big discount definitely increases NAV
•Pay dividends also would attract demand, though I also think paying dividend does not maximize shareholders value. But let the (new) shareholders choose.
•If share buyback doesn’t increase share price, say discount widen to 30%, liquidate and distribute all proceeds. Shareholders instantly make about 40% profit.
•Can’t find good value stocks to invest in Bursa after that? Cannot be mah. Anyway already 40% profit upfront, where got other investment give you such return in a year, 2 years, 3 years?
Andrew want to manage icap fund?
•Is this his intention? I don’t think so. I don’t think other shareholders will allow that. I won’t want it and I prefer Capital Dynamic. Hence I don’t give a damn to his other funds.
•Does he want to liquidate the fund? Likely but I don’t give a damn. Why? I can instantly make 20, 30% with the liquidation. I am too short-term? Come on lah!
•Making 20-30% profit a year, or even 2 years is not that easy. For the past one year, icap’s NAV rises from 2,66 to 2.96, or about 11% only. But that is good already.
•Hence If given the profit of 20-30% instantly, I would grab and then look for other undervalued stocks.
Other response of Capital Dynamic
Too trivial to argue about.

Posted by hooi > 2012-11-08 16:56 | Report Abuse

Bought Icap at 2.45

Posted by jpleow > 2012-11-08 18:53 | Report Abuse

Dear shareholders of ICap,

Saturday will be the big day where the fate of ICap will be decided in an AGM, please vote wisely.

If you want the share price to go back to the old state where it was weak, boring, little volume, few people interested, then go ahead & vote for Capital Dynamics.

Don’t let the arrogant TTB intimidates you into voting for them, if he wants to resign, let him! He is the fund manager, supposed to be the servant of the shareholders, but he acts like he is the boss.

Vote for your own interest to maximize your profit! I’m sure if Laxey Partners win, the price will go up!

VOTE FOR YOUR POCKET, VOTE FOR LAXEY PARTNERS!

Posted by sixteenblue > 2012-11-08 21:06 | Report Abuse

"Laxey MD: We have no intention of replacing Capital Dynamics"
http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2012/11/8/business/20121108203356&sec=business

Posted by nhy6 > 2012-11-08 21:14 | Report Abuse

hi kcchongnz, road jams killing me lah...

anyways, too tired to write but your questions i believe required to be answered atleast the most important ones(although i am not a very seasoned investor pro but i try to keep my research as valid and updated as possible)...

please find answers below each question.

Question : Who cares about the “massive” premium of icap share price TTB talks about years ago. What we are concern is now!
_____________________
Answer: Without considering the premium, the huge discount means the fund is undervalued. The fund stated clearly that it is for long-term investors, and if you are one, this is an opportunity for you to buy. If you are not, why bother buying it.
The future premium is a plus.
_____________________
Question: Total management expenses last year is 6.93 m, or 1.73% of AUM. Not a lot compared to unit trust funds, but also very good reward for Capital Dynamic, considering the expense is almost totally on administrative, as nothing much is done on picking stocks the whole year.
___________________________
Answer :- Well, they are doing a good job as fund manager now. The number you gave is misleading as their management fee is 0.75% of NAV and another 0.75% of NAV for investment advisory fee. The rest is operating expense which every fund in the world has to bear. Go ahead and check the fees for other funds. Hedge funds additionally charge a performance fee and generate return less than 18% generated by iCapital.
FYI: iCapital does not charge you a cent for performance fee. Why should anyone mind paying a small fee if the fund can perform?
... note : all charges are officially declared by capital guys
___________________________
Question : Share buyback when sold at big discount definitely increases NAV
___________________________
Answer : - Laxey Partners and City of London already bought almost 14% of total shares, the discount is still here. So you can see that the impact of buying back is not that clear.
Look at their funds (ex. Terra Catalyst Fund), if they are that good, how come their funds are trading at discount
__________________________
Question : Can’t find good value stocks to invest in Bursa after that? Cannot be mah. Anyway already 40% profit upfront, where got other investment give you such return in a year, 2 years, 3 years?
Andrew want to manage icap fund?
___________________________________
Answer: You are definitely a short-term investor. Are you really expecting 40% return? If you invest like this, chance is that you can also face -40% return. And gain 40% and lose 40%, you ended up with negative return of 16%. Let me know if you don’t know how to do the math.Do think about reinvestment and compounding and how it’s going to make difference to you wealth in the future
___________________________________
Question: Is this his intention? I don’t think so. I don’t think other shareholders will allow that. I won’t want it and I prefer Capital Dynamic. Hence I don’t give a damn to his other funds.
____________________________________
Answer: Look at his track record and what he did to other funds. Liquidating a fund is nothing new to him.
____________________________________
Question: Does he want to liquidate the fund? Likely but I don’t give a damn. Why? I can instantly make 20, 30% with the liquidation. I am too short-term? Come on lah!
_____________________________________
Answer: Of course Laxey Partners don’t care (about what?), but other (long-term?) investors do. They don’t want to kill the goose, but collect its golden eggs.
_____________________________________
Question: Making 20-30% profit a year, or even 2 years is not that easy. For the past one year, icap’s NAV rises from 2,66 to 2.96, or about 11% only. But that is good already.
_____________________________________
Answer: Since its inception in 2005, the fund has compounded at a rate of 18% annually. We cannot rely solely on figures from the past, but the track record says a lot. Judging from one year’s performance simply does not give you enough data.
_____________________________________
Question :Hence If given the profit of 20-30% instantly, I would grab and then look for other
_____________________________________
Answer: I don’t think value investors will agree. I also doubt your ability to find undervalue stock! :)

Posted by nhy6 > 2012-11-08 21:17 | Report Abuse

jpleow's arguments dont even deserve reading.
read the forum name my friend.. its i3investor... not "welovechocolates",
post something relevant and intelligent,
most of us here are investors and the reason why i post here is cause i have brought icap too,
Lets make it a constructive and collective argument rather than just vague "arrogant TTB" and "Laxey the GOD" comments..

Posted by cwkhor > 2012-11-08 21:32 | Report Abuse

interesting thread, i like it. :)
i bought icap a few years ago as long term investment. i agree with kcchongnz, will vote against TTB.

Posted by shirley1 > 2012-11-08 22:37 | Report Abuse

ttb is good, to be more objective, he need to address the investor concerns la, those that believe in him. What is the definition of long term, 5 years, 10 years, 15 years? If after another 15 years, the fund cannot achieve nav rm10, then how? Opps.. just say sorry? Nothing against ttb la... every investor would like to protect their investment la.

Posted by Peter Lim Cheng Teik > 2012-11-09 01:03 | Report Abuse

If you have invested in ICAP on 11th Jan 2008, you would have paid RM 2.78 per share for it, while its NAV is RM 2.22 . Over the next 4.5 years, the NAV risen from RM 2.22 to RM 2.94 on 22nd June 2012, for a total growth of 32.4% during this period.

But the same can't be said to your return as a shareholder during these period. The market price on 22nd June 2012 is only RM 2.15, giving you a return of negative 22.7%.

Why is NAV grows 32.4% during these period, while your return as a shareholder is -22.7% ?
It's because at the time of purchase, you're paying 25.2% PREMIUM over NAV, and at the time of sale, people is paying you 26.9% DISCOUNT over NAV.

While buying at discount to NAV is good, it is at the expense of the seller. So is vice versa to buying at premium.

Thus, the best way to be fair to both buyer and seller for the fund to trade close to its NAV, and the best way to achieve this is to have a policy by ICAP to ensure that the gap between NAV and market price isn't wide (say, anything more than plus or minus 5%).

Data available here: http://www.icapital.my/en/weeklynav

And the reason i vote for Laxey is because i'm voting for the gap between market price and NAV to reduce to be fair to both the buyer and seller. Although i know most of you are long term investors, but should you decide to sell one day, you would want to sell at a fair price, don't you?

Just like in Politics. Many vote for PKR not because they want Anwar. But it's because they want "change".

TTB, hope you'll close the gap by setting policy in place.

Posted by kcchongnz > 2012-11-09 08:42 | Report Abuse

nhy6, I like your phrase directed to me. "Let me know if you don’t know how to do the math.Do think about reinvestment and compounding and how it’s going to make difference to you wealth in the future". Let's start the fun with my response to your response below.

You: Without considering the premium, the huge discount means the fund is undervalued. The fund stated clearly that it is for long-term investors. If you are not, why bother buying it.
The future premium is a plus.
_____________________
My Response: icap constituted a big percentage of my investment. I bought it because it presented a big discount. Anyone can buy icap in the market, not only you can. And tell you the truth, I am a long-term and value investor too. Future premium? Are you sure or not because in the US market, the average discount of CEF is 6.1%. (See I read a lot too). Future premium is a plus? This is contrary to what I know about basic finance that $1 now is worth more than $1 in the future.

You: Well, they are doing a good job as fund manager now. The number you gave is misleading as their management fee is 0.75% of NAV and another 0.75% of NAV for investment advisory fee. The rest is operating expense which every fund in the world has to bear. Go ahead and check the fees for other funds. Hedge funds additionally charge a performance fee and generate return less than 18% generated by iCapital.
FYI: iCapital does not charge you a cent for performance fee. Why should anyone mind paying a small fee if the fund can perform?
______________________
My Response:
1)Didn't I say "total management expenses? Did I say the amount is purely management fees?
2) Again you are cutting and pasting icap's statement here. Charge performance fee? Is it provided for in the prospectus? Or is this icap's regional fund, Australian Fund etc. No, I didn't buy them.
___________________________
You: Laxey Partners and City of London already bought almost 14% of total shares, the discount is still here. So you can see that the impact of buying back is not that clear.
Look at their funds (ex. Terra Catalyst Fund), if they are that good, how come their funds are trading at discount.
__________________________
My Response: Don't you see the effect on icap shares because of Laxey buying more icap shares now? Again I don't care WTF is Andrew Pegge's funds.
___________________________________
You: You are definitely a short-term investor. Are you really expecting 40% return? If you invest like this, chance is that you can also face -40% return. And gain 40% and lose 40%, you ended up with negative return of 16%. Let me know if you don’t know how to do the math.Do think about reinvestment and compounding and how it’s going to make difference to you wealth in the future
___________________________________
Me: I was saying if icap's discount widen, say if icap drops to 2.12 again like 6 months ago, the discount would be 28%, and if icap is liquidated and if shareholders can get close to the NAV of 2.96, your money in icap would increased by 40%. If my market value of icap at 2.12 is 10000, then the liquidated value at 2.96 will be 13962. I am not saying that I can get return of 40% in investment in shares, did I? See if your maths is good as mine.

You: Look at his track record and what he did to other funds. Liquidating a fund is nothing new to him.
____________________________________
Me: Again I don't give a damn about his other funds. I am not voting him as a fund manager of icap. Noway he can become a fund manager of icap, unless you vote him to.

You: Of course Laxey Partners don’t care (about what?), but other (long-term?) investors do. They don’t want to kill the goose, but collect its golden eggs.
_____________________________________
My Response: Killing the goose which lay the golden eggs? I will response in the last section

You: Since its inception in 2005, the fund has compounded at a rate of 18% annually. We cannot rely solely on figures from the past, but the track record says a lot. Judging from one year’s performance simply does not give you enough data.
_____________________________________
My Response :Agreed with that CAGR of 18%, I even specifically mentioned it, didn't I? What I am saying in investment, this type of CAGR is hard to maintain, and I just cited an example that the past one year icap only yield 10% in NAV, which is the norm in investment. It is more probable that the performance of Capital Dynamic will be about that in the future.

You: I don’t think value investors will agree. I also doubt your ability to find undervalue stock!

Me: Now with my capital now of 13962 and I invest in say an index fund in Bursa and return 10.5% (not 40%) a year which is a normal return, my money will grow to 23000 in 5 years. For your icap shares, it has to continuously earn 18% for the next 5 years to grow to the same amount as my money. Is that easy? Others agree?

Posted by kcchongnz > 2012-11-09 09:06 | Report Abuse

Oh nhy6, sorry, I forgot to response to your this statement below:
"I also doubt your ability to find undervalue stock!"
Do you know me ah? Or do you have 6 sense that I am not able to find value stocks?
Actually I want to tell you ah, I analyze stocks thoroughly and then I came out with reports which I sent to my friends for comments. Of course I bought those stocks I recommended. The return of my recommendations (14 of them) was 28.7% in approximately one year period. This compared favorably with the KLCI 7.2% and the FBMSCAP of 4.4%. This even out-performed the NAV of icap of 10.2% by a wide margin. I can give you a summary report of those stocks I recommended. I can also give you my report of each recommendation. Just give me your email address. On second thought, I don't think you bother as you have such a low opinion of me (without even knowing whom I am) in picking stocks. Can I repeat my performance in the future? I myself highly doubt so, just as I doubt icap can continuously return 18% per year in the future.

Posted by jpleow > 2012-11-09 09:33 | Report Abuse

In “Laxey MD: We have no intention of replacing Capital Dynamics”:
“He said two of Laxey's funds, the Terra Catalyst Fund and Value Catalyst Fund, were in the process of being wound down and the cash returned to shareholders.”

At least they have the courtesy to liquidate undervalue fund.

Posted by jpleow > 2012-11-09 10:12 | Report Abuse

VOTE FOR YOUR POCKET, VOTE FOR LAXEY PARTNERS!

Today the price up after Laxey Partners strike back! :)

Posted by lofan73 > 2012-11-09 10:17 | Report Abuse

vote against TTB in order to move forward. when moving forward,we got to change.we need to given a fair shot..not short changed. play to same game of rules. CHANGE TTB.

Posted by lofan73 > 2012-11-09 10:22 | Report Abuse

why is TTB so worried of these directors.AT LEAST THESE GUYS CAN QUESTION HIM AFTER THEY R IN THE BOARD. ha..ha..ha...

Posted by sixteenblue > 2012-11-09 10:58 | Report Abuse

"Tan rebukes Laxey and says iCapital.biz has outperformed the KLCI"
http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2012/11/9/business/12295289&sec=business

"Laxey says it will keep its 7% stake in iCapital.biz"
http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2012/11/9/business/12297115&sec=business

"iCapital.biz shareholder Lo also maintains he is independent of Laxey"
http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2012/11/9/business/12295186&sec=business

Posted by nhy6 > 2012-11-09 15:12 | Report Abuse

ttb's interview has been uploaded on their site , listen to him directly... to all the finance gods here ;)
http://www.icapital.biz/lib/viewvideo.asp?id=70&lang=en

Posted by jpleow > 2012-11-09 15:32 | Report Abuse

VOTE FOR YOUR POCKET, VOTE FOR LAXEY PARTNERS!

TTB starts talking & the price dropping again. :(

Posted by kcchongnz > 2012-11-09 15:32 | Report Abuse

"all the finance gods" hahaha, you very interesting lah nhy6. By the way, aren;t you disputing my figures when I responded to your points of view? Those are finance 101 only. This video of yours is nothing new; the same points as posted by you from icap. In actual fact, you seem to treat TTB as god lah. nhy6, in investing there is no god, no hero. The most important thing is maximizing of shareholders' (you and me) value. Tell you what is the problem? TTB is not willing to liquidate the fund, though it is the best for the shareholders, because where his management fee comes from then?

Posted by jpleow > 2012-11-09 16:42 | Report Abuse

In "Laxey says it will keep its 7% stake in iCapital.biz":
"Pegge also found it “ridiculous” that the board has remained silent while Tan appeared to be speaking on behalf of the company where he was only a manager."

Hahaha, the board is silent while the manager is talking... Arrogant guy!

Posted by kcchongnz > 2012-11-09 17:02 | Report Abuse

yaloh jpleow, why the manager who is employed by the shareholders is talking instead of the board members ah? The board members are the ones who have fiduciary duty for the shareholders to maximize their benefits. Aiyah jpleow, like that u also don't know. The board members are all put in by TTB. They are puppets to take care of CDAM's benefit lah and that is why TTB insists that the present board be voted in! Or else he will resign and won't care about you guys any more! Yet some people still keep on using what TTB said as if TTB is protecting his interest. For those shareholders who are not sure, including nhy6, I suggest you read this from a very well informed and truly independent finance blogger.
http://www.intellecpoint.com/

Posted by cwkhor > 2012-11-09 18:48 | Report Abuse

kcchongnz, nhy6 may not want your stock analysis report, but i want. can send to me? your hard works and sharing is appreciated.

Posted by jpleow > 2012-11-09 18:51 | Report Abuse

VOTE FOR YOUR POCKET, VOTE FOR LAXEY PARTNERS!

Vote for Laxey Partners & laughing all the way to the bank. :)

Vote for Capital Dynamics & crying all the way to Holland. :(

Posted by kcchongnz > 2012-11-09 19:03 | Report Abuse

cwkhor, if u r serious, give me your email.

Posted by meegoreng > 2012-11-09 22:41 | Report Abuse

kcchongnz, appreciate if u could send me a copy to learn. My email: kennylam67@gmail.com. Thanks

Posted by reyes430 > 2012-11-09 22:49 | Report Abuse

hi kcchongnz, appreciated if u could send me a copy of your report as well. I would like to learn more on it. Thanks. gnihckes430@hotmail.com

Posted by cwkhor > 2012-11-09 23:43 | Report Abuse

of course i'm serious. here is my email: cwblog123@gmail.com

Posted by Shine > 2012-11-09 23:57 | Report Abuse

Pls send to me also whongc@gmail.com. Thanks kcchongnz.

Posted by sixteenblue > 2012-11-10 08:42 | Report Abuse

"Shareholders of iCapital.biz to decide today"
http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2012/11/10/business/12299974

"Future at stake for iCapital.biz at today’s AGM"
http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2012/11/10/business/12300147&sec=business

Posted by chieng8182 > 2012-11-10 12:35 | Report Abuse

how the progress?

Posted by chieng8182 > 2012-11-10 14:52 | Report Abuse

ttb won today, wat laxey next step?

Posted by kcchongnz > 2012-11-10 14:59 | Report Abuse

Good to hear that some people are interested in a nobody's stock analysis. Well I am more happy to share and also hope to learn from others. First I have to clarify that I am not one who can give you tips and earn you double digit return in days, weeks, and not even months (but occasional do, but occasionally can make you lose money also). Only snake oil salesmen can do that. I don't know anything about flags, pennants, teacups etc and tell you when you should go in or come out. I am not Paul the octopus. In investment, I believe there ain't any tooth fairies. I look at fundamentals of a company, try valuing it and then see if there is adequate margin of safety to invest in this share. To many, these stuff can be boring. Most of you would have heaps of research and writeup by many knowledgeable investment bankers. So why want to waste time reading mine? Good question and hence think about before you really want my analysis and report. However, one thing I can say, my analysis and report is highly independent, and many of the stocks i investigated are of no interest to institutional investors, and hence the investment bankers. I do know a bit about investing too (hehe, bullshit a bit lah)

Posted by meegoreng > 2012-11-10 15:58 | Report Abuse

No qualms about tat, kcchongnz. Instead of to be fed a fish, it is better to learn how to fish. Tq in advance

Posted by sixteenblue > 2012-11-10 19:56 | Report Abuse

"Laxey fails to get on iCapital’s board"
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/business/article/laxey-fails-to-get-on-icapitals-board/

Posted by sixteenblue > 2012-11-10 19:58 | Report Abuse

"Board polls proves long-term investing works, iCapital founder says"
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/business/article/board-polls-proves-long-term-investing-works-icapital-founder-says/

Posted by sixteenblue > 2012-11-11 08:17 | Report Abuse

"To many ICap's shareholders, TTB is their Oracle!"
http://www.intellecpoint.com/2012/11/to-many-icap-shareholders-ttb-is-their.html

Posted by kcchongnz > 2012-11-11 08:48 | Report Abuse

I have sent a report to those who have given their email address yesterday morning. Please let me know if you have received it because I haven't received any mail acknowledging receipt. Just to make sure.

Posted by kcchongnz > 2012-11-11 08:58 | Report Abuse

Overwhelming defeat of the challengers! What a surprise. Yeah I know it may not be a surprise to many hero worshipers of TTB. "TTB is their oracle". For those who wanted a change in the board, don't get too upset. If you have sold off your icap shares, there will be good opportunity to buy back at lower price; could be much lower price then before the AGM. Those who haven't sold out, may be good to keep for a longer period. TTB has proven to be a good fund manager, there is no doubt about it. But to be consistently out-performing the market by a wide margin like before is really not an easy task. Yes, even by this "oracle of Malaysia". Those die hard fans of TTB, congratulations. The result show that you have won a battle but in reality you may not have won the war.

Posted by Kei-Ji Lee > 2012-11-11 09:03 | Report Abuse

kcchongz If u dont mind and not too much trouble pls send to me too at keijilee@hotmail.com. Many thanks mate.

Posted by meegoreng > 2012-11-11 10:21 | Report Abuse

Thanks KC Chong, got yr email and good stuff to read.

Posted by Buy & Sell Sell & Buy > 2012-11-11 12:44 | Report Abuse

kcchongz If u dont mind pls send to me too at sangsibu@yahoo.com. A million thanks to u.

Posted by Kim Yap Lau > 2012-11-11 13:08 | Report Abuse

Laxey says it will keep its 7% stake in iCapital.biz http://adf.ly/Eehjq

Posted by reyes430 > 2012-11-11 13:45 | Report Abuse

received your mail KC CHONG! Thanks and appreciated!

Posted by CT Sim > 2012-11-11 18:49 | Report Abuse

Fail in I CAP go to GCE (Hotel) 100% Return

Posted by sclau1 > 2012-11-11 22:21 | Report Abuse

kcchongz, appreciate if u could send me your report too at leesclau@live.com.my
Thanks

Posted by nhy6 > 2012-11-12 08:05 | Report Abuse

long weekend guys, anyways i had attended the AGM on saturday and things were smooth.. TTB's proposal was voted in with a big majority, and yes KC Chong i too would like to see the report, maybe you could upload it onto google docs and share with all.. i dont think anyone here is against making money ;)

Posted by lofan73 > 2012-11-12 10:37 | Report Abuse

kcchongnz..i really like to read ur independent reports and i like to do my own analysis b4 any do any purchase.let's share and exchange ideas.u can email me at lofan73@gmail.com