Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-02-27 02:43 | Report Abuse

@thetruthseeker The company can just look up the share register changes every day to track who are the sellers and purchasers for the day directly, Getting the identity of the selling/buying brokers is useful only if you know who are the brokers for certain parties so that you know who are on the board at that moment and plan your orders. Parties who want to hide their identities can simply use a number of brokers and switch them randomly. If you have followed the Singapore penny stocks case, you will know how this is SOP.

Posted by thetruthseeker > 2023-02-27 13:43 | Report Abuse

@dumbMoney What is your view on the director's small maiden purchase of ICAP?

Posted by thetruthseeker > 2023-02-27 13:47 | Report Abuse

Interestingly, one of ICAP's directors is the Chairman of the board of MSWG. I wonder if this director fulfilled his task of safeguarding minority shareholders' interests or just being a yes-man there.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-02-27 19:05 | Report Abuse

@the truthseeker, this bit about the Chairman of the board of MSWG clears up some questions in my mind. I have had dealings with MSWG in the past, so I better not make public comments. As to the director's recent share purchase, neither here nor there, too small to change him to wearing two hats instead of just one.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-02-27 19:33 | Report Abuse

When the previous chairman of the BOD resigned, the first announcement to Bursa on the 24/11/20 gave no reasons for doing so. In a subsequent amended announcement on the 1/12/20, for reasons, it was stated as "difference in opinion" However, in the next box, which is for "detailsof any disagreement that has with the BOD, it was filled as "No". Did he resign for something as trivial as not liking the color scheme for the office? No shareholder bothered to find out.

Posted by speakup > 2023-02-27 21:16 | Report Abuse

i wonder whether icap is the worst CEF (in terms of discount) in the world?

Posted by thetruthseeker > 2023-02-27 21:25 | Report Abuse

@dumbMoney The resignation also coincides with the litigation against COL.

Posted by thetruthseeker > 2023-02-27 21:29 | Report Abuse

@speakup You can refer to here for a general view of CEF discount/premium situations around the world:

https://www.cefa.com/FundSelector/AdvancedSearch.fs

At a current discount of circa 41%, ICAP is indeed the CEF with the largest share price discount to its NAV.

Posted by speakup > 2023-02-27 21:47 | Report Abuse

Wow, Icap masuk Guinness World Record for the wrong reasons

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-02-27 22:23 | Report Abuse

@thetruthseeker, the ex-Chairman resigned before the AGM that adopted the annual report including the reimbursement of the dual listed fund expenses incurred years earlier. BTW, the annual accounts are not subject to shareholders vote, so only need to be passed by the BOD.

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-02-28 17:27 | Report Abuse

Net Asset Value per share of icapital.biz Berhad as at 22 February 2023 is 3.39.

Posted by speakup > 2023-02-28 21:44 | Report Abuse

Hard to up unless The Edge papers carry an article about this massive discount

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-03-01 01:22 | Report Abuse

@speakup, no way Edge will touch this company again. TTB had sued them for defamation in the past and won.

Posted by speakup > 2023-03-01 06:19 | Report Abuse

Aduh

Posted by Just88 > 2023-03-01 22:59 | Report Abuse

Just keep buying on the massive discount and vote against the BOD until they take care of shareholders' interest.

Posted by speakup > 2023-03-02 07:39 | Report Abuse

42% discount dah world record
if continue like this TTB will be regarded as worst fund manager in the World! he need to narrow the discount to improve his image

Posted by speakup > 2023-03-02 07:49 | Report Abuse

at 42% discount now, TTB already no face. He need to narrow the discount to a reasonable level, like 20% or better

Posted by CharlesT > 2023-03-02 07:57 | Report Abuse

No face?

No fixed annual income of RM6m+ matters more to TTB lah

Posted by speakup > 2023-03-02 08:14 | Report Abuse

earn money, but no face is half the battle won
earn money + got face is the whole battle won

Posted by speakup > 2023-03-02 08:15 | Report Abuse

reputation matters a lot in the finance world
u think after the 1MDB saga, ppl will want invest with Jho Low anymore? Or Roger Ng?

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-03-02 12:01 | Report Abuse

Closed end fund trading at huge discount is vulnerable to hostile raid, often by predators that are after short-term quick gains, rather than long-term bigger gains.

Is iCap facing a similar situation?

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-03-02 12:09 | Report Abuse

The price for a fund's shares is primarily determined by the demand for the fixed number of shares. Investors consider the underlying market value of a fund's holdings, but share prices for the funds are also influenced by expectations, emotions and other factors that often affect prices in the stock market.

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-03-02 12:15 | Report Abuse

iCap is not a new closed end fund. A new closed end fund can be expected to trade at a discount due to substantial underwriting fees paid to the brokerage firms that market the shares. Also, these brokerages may support the price through active trading in the days immediately following the offering, the firms typically retreat soon after and use their capital elsewhere. Once the firms are no longer supporting the price of a closed-end fund, it typically drops.

Another common factor affecting prices of closed-end funds are high management fees, which reduce returns.

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-03-02 12:20 | Report Abuse

How can the shareholders of a publicly traded closed-end fund narrow the discount of its share prices to its NAV?

Among the methods are the forced conversion of publicly traded closed-end fund to open-end mutual fund, or, in extreme case, the forced liquidation of closed-end fund.

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-03-02 12:23 | Report Abuse

By definition, an open-end mutual fund trades at a price that reflects the market value of its holdings. So the price of an undervalued closed-end fund will rise if the fund is converted to an open-end fund.

Closed-end fund managers may oppose conversion for several reasons.

- First, they receive a management fee that is a percentage of total fund assets. After a fund is converted to open-end and the price rises, many fund investors typically sell, shrinking assets under management and management fees by one-third.

- Fund managers may also oppose conversion because of a belief that an open-end structure--which requires them to redeem investor shares on demand in cash--will hurt the fund in the long run, by forcing it to raise cash by dumping stocks of small, growing companies at inopportune moments.

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-03-02 12:33 | Report Abuse

ttb versus Laxey

iCapital.biz's ethos is to allow long-term shareholders to benefit from value investing, helmed by the respected ttb.

Laxey though is likely to put forward a simple and pragmatic suggestion to iCapital.biz shareholders: liquidate your company and cash in at its NAV (or close to it).

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-03-02 12:38 | Report Abuse

Closed-end funds differ from mutual funds and exchange-traded funds (ETFs) by having a fixed number of shares.

Mutual funds and ETFs
As money flows into and out of mutual funds and exchange-traded funds, the number of outstanding shares is adjusted. Mutual funds directly issue shares to and redeem shares from shareholders. ETFs adjust their share counts through creation units, which are large blocks of shares issued to and redeemed from institutional investors and large traders.


Closed-end fund
If there are more investment dollars flowing into a closed-end fund than the net value of its assets, shares of the fund will trade at a premium to their net asset value (NAV). It’s the law of supply and demand. More dollars will drive up the share price because transaction proceeds go into the pockets of selling shareholders, but never into the closed-end fund. (New investor dollars only flow into a closed-end fund when an offering occurs, which is not very often.)

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-03-02 12:47 | Report Abuse

A Strategy for Losing Money

When a premium, particularly a high premium, is paid to own closed-end funds, the investor is hoping there is someone willing to pay an even higher price for the same shares. This fact invokes the greater fool theory.


Two events could cause this investor to incur a loss in their investing into closed-end funds too.
1. The first is the fund’s net asset value DECLINING, which should cause the share price to decline and is an inherent risk with any type of fund.
2. The second is a decrease in the premium. Should the premium decline FASTER than the fund appreciates in value, the investor could lose even though the underlying net asset value of the shares increased in price.

The WORSE-CASE scenario, of course, is for the fund’s NAV to decline and its premium to shrink—a double whammy.

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-03-02 12:51 | Report Abuse

Probably more shareholders burnt than benefited.

Peter Lynch delivered great returns while managing the Magellan fund for 13 years. Yet, when he analysed the returns to the shareholders, the majority lost money!

Similarly, I am of the opinion, even today, the majority of shareholders who had bought and sold icapital close end fund were losers. The winners are probably a minority who bought in the early years especially the initial investors into the fund at the time of launch, and who have held onto the stocks till today.

Posted by Sslee > 2023-03-02 13:19 | Report Abuse

Imagine if someone at the time of icap launch will use the same money and invest into Dlady, Nestle, Maybank, Pbank, Heim and etc instead of icapital. What will be their ROI?

The million dollar question why icap do not have hold any of the above stocks?

Table 2: Size of Holdings as at 31 May 2022
Company (‘000 shares)
Bioalpha Holdings 49,058
Kronologi Asia 31,112
Capital A (formerly known as AirAsia Group) 29,282
Kelington Group 28,383
Parkson Holdings 22,942
SAM Engineering & Equipment 18,154
Padini Holdings 17,007
Boustead Holdings 12,148
Suria Capital 11,894
Capital A - RCUIDS shares 9,761
Kelington Group - Warrants 9,461
Bioalpha Holdings - ICPS 7,665
Luxchem Corporation 5,007
Capital A - Warrants 4,880
APM Automotive Holdings 4,541
OCK Group 3,410
Oceancash Pacific 3,145
MKH 2,951
Apex Healthcare 2,283
Tong Herr Resources 1,888
HPMT Holdings 1,803
Salutica 1,700
Wellcall Holdings 1,514
United Plantations 165
Eupe Corporation 100

Posted by Sslee > 2023-03-02 13:25 | Report Abuse

Premium or discount is actually depend on the quality of stocks icap is having now or may have in the future and nothing to do with demand and supply nor liquidity.

So is icap holding quality stock?

Posted by 股神 GS > 2023-03-02 16:45 | Report Abuse

Icap still holding Boustead 12,147,786 share? what is the average cost?

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-03-02 17:02 | Report Abuse

Size of Holdings as at 31 May 2022
Company (‘000 shares)
Bioalpha Holdings 49,058


Interesting to see Bioalpha is in iCap portfolio.

Gruesome company by my definition.
However, net cash positive.
Balance sheet is good.
Will this company do better post-pandemic and also now that China has opened up?

Value investing by ttb.

CA 81.7 m
TL 29.5 m
Net net 52.2 m

NCA 115.5 m

Cash 39.7m
ST Borrowings 4m
LT Borrowings 7.4m
Lease liabilities 4.2m




Price per share 8.5 sen
Market Capital (RM)
: 117.14m
Number of Share
: 1.378b
EPS (cent)
: -3.35 *
P/E Ratio
: -
ROE (%)
: -27.46
TTM Profit Margin (%)
: -129.1
CAGR - Revenue (%)
: -
CAGR - PAT (%)
: -
Dividend (cent)
: 0.000
Dividend Yield (%)
: 0.00
NTA (RM)
: 0.122
P/B Ratio
: 0.70

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-03-02 17:42 | Report Abuse

This assessment of the integrity of the fund manager can best be summed up as difficult, subjective and based on your personal views. This view is also influenced by your interactions with others and this fund manager in the same industry. Eventually, in the majority of situations, it is a personal opinion.

Posted by speakup > 2023-03-02 17:59 | Report Abuse

Buy Icap for indirect exposure to Bstead privatisation

Posted by thetruthseeker > 2023-03-02 18:51 | Report Abuse

Bstead represents less than 2% of ICAP’s portfolio, it won’t make any difference. Huge holdings like SAM instead will create a huge impact when it fluctuates around and the fund manager doesn’t know when to take profit.

Posted by firehawk > 2023-03-02 22:06 | Report Abuse

On behalf of the Board of Directors of icapital.biz Berhad, we wish to announce that the Net Asset Value per share of icapital.biz Berhad as at 1 March 2023 is 3.41.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Let's see next week how much the Boustead adds

Posted by speakup > 2023-03-02 22:12 | Report Abuse

TTB reputation at stake

Posted by Just88 > 2023-03-02 22:35 | Report Abuse

12.14m shares in Boustead with 20 cents gain adds around 1.73 cents to NAV of ICAP

Posted by Nepo > 2023-03-03 08:41 | Report Abuse

omg, Boustead unrealised loss becomes realised loss due to privatization.
lesson learnt: don't touch Mxlxy managed company

Posted by Nepo > 2023-03-03 08:43 | Report Abuse

Boustead average buying price @ RM2.26..privatisation price RM 0.8x
poorly managed fund

Posted by Nepo > 2023-03-03 08:46 | Report Abuse

Boustead unrealised (will become realised loss) = 12,147,786 shares x (RM 2.26- RM 0.855 = RM 17,067,639.33..cry..

Posted by i3lurker > 2023-03-03 08:49 | Report Abuse

reasons for ICAP low share price
Sent message. reasons for ICAP low share price
Searching for: ICAP low share price

Searching for: ICAP low share price

Generating answers for you…

Generating answers for you…

Hello, this is Bing. I searched for ICAP low share price and found some possible reasons. According to 1 and 2, one reason is that ICAP has been buying back its own shares at a lower price than its net asset value (NAV), which reduces its market capitalization and earnings per share. Another reason is that ICAP’s portfolio performance has been lagging behind the benchmark FBM KLCI index, which may affect its attractiveness to investors3. Do you want to know more about ICAP’s financials or portfolio?

Posted by 股神 GS > 2023-03-03 11:58 | Report Abuse

Fund manager was very stubborn. Some of the share in the portfolio like Parkson, Bioalpha , really need to re-look

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-03-03 15:35 | Report Abuse

For accounting purpose, individual counters book P&L are aggregated and only the net amount needs to be reported if below cost and provision made, so if there is still a surplus, such individual losses can be hidden. But once the losses are realised, then it has to be reported in the P&L. So you can have an instance when the P&L can report a loss because income from interest and dividends are less than realised losses and management fees, but can still report an increase in NAV because of unrealised gains in portfolio. Even though Boustead GO is above current market price, if realised, will be a big loss on the P&L if the book cost is much higher.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-03-03 15:50 | Report Abuse

For LTAT, the Boustead offer is not made from the goodness of their heart. They have to carry the investments in Boustead at the marked to market value and not book value, which causes a big dent on their balance sheet. But if Boustead can be privatised and no longer listed, then it can be carried at book or NAV value, whichever is lower. So effectively, the discount to NAV is captured by going private. PNB did the same thing when they took AHP1 private as the shares were trading at a discount, which reduced PNB's ability to declare dividends for their units.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-03-03 15:57 | Report Abuse

For years, Tabung Haji was able to declare dividends for its investors by not making provisions for paper losses on its investment portfolio. That was stopped after Rafizi blew it open and the auditor general confirmed it, and the government had to take over the sick portfolio at book cost to give TH a clean balance sheet again. LTAT is also facing the same problem of having to mark to market its investments.

Posted by speakup > 2023-03-04 14:08 | Report Abuse

One way to narrow the discount is to give a big special dividend

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-03-05 12:01 | Report Abuse

There is no logical reason for the cash assets to also be subjected to a 40% discount. Give a dividend, but with a re-investment option at near market price. So those who want to take cash can cash out, those who want to stay on can remain and own more shares at big discount, a win win for both kinds of shareholders, and for the company, can end up with more loyalist shareowners, which is what they have been harping on all this while. Already suggested this before. This is how the numbers can look like: Using NAV of $3.41, market price of $1.98 and a dividend of $1. Price discount is now 42%, and theoretical ex-dividend price is $0.98 with NAV of $2.41, which is a price discount of 59%. So shareholders have a choice of taking the $1 cash, which is no longer discounted 42%, or buying more shares with the dividend cash at 59% discount. Every one should be happy?

Posted by CharlesT > 2023-03-05 12:07 | Report Abuse

Mayb 99.99% will be happy loh

But TTB will not be happy