Posted by speakup > 2023-05-22 07:53 | Report Abuse

Icap breakout from rm2.00 tight range! rm2.40 coming?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-05-23 22:56 | Report Abuse

@speakup Now we know why the price went up a few sens , guess who was buying, haha.

Posted by speakup > 2023-05-24 07:21 | Report Abuse

who buy?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-05-24 09:16 | Report Abuse

TTB himself, putting his money where his mouth is.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-05-24 23:20 | Report Abuse

@stockraider Berkshire's buyback threshold is not at a discount to book value, but at a premium, and was raised from 1.1 times in 2012 to 1.2 times in 2018. WB uses the intrinsic value of the shares rather than the accounting book value, because lots of investments are carried at historic book value and hence not fully reflected in the books.

Posted by Patient Investor > 2023-05-26 14:17 | Report Abuse

What's the criteria for COL to able to force the fund into liquidation?

Posted by Patient Investor > 2023-05-26 14:51 | Report Abuse

From FY2017 - FY2022
> Investments + Cash Equivalent reduce (16 million)
> add back the 28 million dividend distributed last year, become 12 million
> Within the period, Total Fund management fee + Investment advisory fee is 40 million
> ICAP team gain more than Shareholder's equity gain

From FY2019 - FY2022
> Investments + Cash Equivalent grow 24 million
> add back the 28 million dividend distributed last year, become 42 million
> Within the period, Total Fund management fee + Investment advisory fee is (27 million)
> ICAP team makes around 60% of Shareholder's equity Gain
> The current Asset value is around 446million, 42million gain over 4 years is less than 10% growth!

With share price performance 30% below its NTA.

Personally, I prefer the fund be liquidated so shareholders get back an appropriate return.
Mr.TTB can compare performance since inception, but the recent years performance is very lousy.
Also I dont think its appropriate to benchmark against KLCI index, as % of icap portfolio holdings in the index is negligible. Don't think such performance is right to benchmark against KLCI index.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-05-26 21:44 | Report Abuse

@Patient Investor I have laid out in detail the various options and scenarios of COL vs the fund here over the last 2 years, just have to refer back.

Posted by JohnD0ugh > 2023-05-28 13:16 | Report Abuse

Warren Buffett expressed it more humorously: "We continue to make more money when snoring than when active”. To be sure, value investors are not lazy investors; they actually work pretty damn hard.

Besides that, they are critically self-honest and humbly admit that it is impossible to time the market to perfection. Remember Ben Graham advised that "You will be much more in control, if you realize how much you are not in control”?

As Tan Teng Boo has said zillions of times before, "Instead of pretending that we can be 100% accurate, our objective is to seek long-term capital appreciation while reducing the margin of error. This is achieved with a rigorous and well-defined value investing approach."

The humble philosophy underlying value investing is that investors need to have a margin of safety in order to deal with unexpected events and one's own human errors.

This is why a value investor will buy a stock or a business only when its market price is below its intrinsic value, the difference being the margin of safety created.

To be successful, one needs to recognise that mistakes will be made. Investors are after all only human. The strategy then should be to reduce the mistakes or at least reduce the impact these mistakes would have on one's investments.


i Capital Newsletter Volume 31 Issue 36 (www.icapital.biz)

Posted by speakup > 2023-05-28 13:25 | Report Abuse

Breakout from rm2 congestion level. Next TP 2.40!

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-05-29 05:59 | Report Abuse

You don't need a margin of safety if you just buy back your own stock at 40% discount and cancel it.

Posted by Patient Investor > 2023-05-29 14:16 | Report Abuse

@dumbMoney spot on.

@JohnD0ugh Do you agree with what TTB there's no bargain in the market in 6 years with 3 crisis unfold - trade war, pandemic, ukraine war.

And btw, he bought into Capital A, now look is AAX or capital A excelling?

Posted by RealValueInvestor > 2023-05-29 16:29 | Report Abuse

Dumbmoney - you are SO right! TTB must believe that the current portfolio has a margin of safety else why would he own it. So the same portfolio at 60% of value has a BIGGER margin of safety and so, putting aside reducing the size of the fund and the effect on management fees, surely TTB should like it MORE!?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-05-29 16:51 | Report Abuse

@Patient Investor The argument presented can be summarised like this: Existing portfolio > cash > rest of the market (including iCap, which is made up of cash + existing portfolio.) How logical can this be?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-05-30 17:15 | Report Abuse

@RealValueInvestor Trying to defend the indefensible is like digging yourself a bigger hole. Like saying the more shares being bought, the lower is the price, when it is just a simple case of having more sellers than buyers. Don't need any fancy conspiracy theories about COL.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-05-31 12:49 | Report Abuse

For every share traded in the market, there must be a buyer and a seller. So why blame the price drop only on the buyers and not the sellers? The more valid argument should be: the more shares being sold, the lower is the price.

Posted by speakup > 2023-05-31 22:07 | Report Abuse

Deeply undervalued, still bo local funds wanna buy

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-06-01 12:46 | Report Abuse

@speakup Funds need to mark their quoted investments to market, not NAV, so what is important to them is share price performance, not NAV figures that cannot be cashed in unless the fund is liquidated or reduce the price discount.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-06-02 13:52 | Report Abuse

So in COL's case, they have bought the shares and held them for more than 10 years with nothing to show for it after adjusting the costs for dividends received. Local funds dare not enter with no assurance of a profitable exit later on.

Posted by stockraider > 2023-06-02 21:14 | Report Abuse

No brainer mah!
Just buy hold sure $$$$$$$$$$$ loh!

Posted by observatory > 2023-06-03 00:17 | Report Abuse

Fund managers who dare to buy into this value trap would have been fired long ago.
The stigma with ICAP means no fund manager will want to the name of ICAP to appear on their stock portfolios, which they must publish to unit holders bi-annually. Why should fund manager take the career risk?
Short of COL mustering enough votes to kick out the board, buyers of ICAP can only hope for other unsuspecting retail investors to buy their tickets!

Posted by speakup > 2023-06-03 09:50 | Report Abuse

https://www.thestar.com.my/business/business-news/2023/06/03/what-ails-the-ringgit

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-06-04 14:02 | Report Abuse

@observatory Why must COL be expected to do all the heavy lifting, including incurring legal costs to fight iCap management in court, when the rest of the shareholders do very little to support it? This can be seen from the attached voting numbers from recent AGM, where there were negligible opposing votes from other shareholders besides COL? If people want change, must also do their part
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lckvee0ifv9dhxk/iCap%20voting%20trends.pdf?dl=0

Posted by JohnD0ugh > 2023-06-04 15:03 | Report Abuse

An investor needs to match his or her own investment objective with the investment product before investing.
As Tan Teng Boo explained, to understand icapital.biz Berhad better and see if it is suitable for your investment needs, think of two types of properties:

Property A as an empty land and Property B as a shop house.

Question: which type of property is suitable for your investment needs?

If you are looking at an investment that can provide you with regular income, obviously buying a shop house with rental would be the most suitable.

If you are looking for an investment that offers high long-term capital appreciation, buying a piece of land would be far superior. In Malaysia, just think of the property tycoons that bought empty pieces of land 40 or 50 years ago in places like Bangsar, Bandar Utama, Subang Jaya, etc. and sat on them and let the land appreciate in value.

If you are looking for an investment that offers high long-term capital appreciation, buying a piece of land would be far superior. In Malaysia, just think of the property tycoons that bought empty pieces of land 40 or 50 years ago in places like Bangsar, Bandar Utama, Subang Jaya, etc. and sat on them and let the land appreciate in value.
Investing in icapital. biz Berhad is like buying such a piece of empty land.

icapital.biz Berhad calls its investors "share owners" instead of "shareholders".

icapital.biz Berhad is certainly meant for the serious long-term investors, people who want to be able to sleep soundly at night and then wake up later to see their asset value has appreciated substantially.


i Capital Newsletter Volume 30 Issue 1 (www.icapital.biz)

Posted by Just88 > 2023-06-04 15:40 | Report Abuse

TTB should not take shareholders for granted, thinking they are happy to hold long term and ignored the huge discount. One of my friend recently approached me to look for buyers for his client who has million of Icap shares held since RM1.20. He said the discount is ridiculous and want to let go. I told him it is unwise to sell now but instead he should vote. So, I taught him how to vote as he has never voted before on any AGM.

Posted by observatory > 2023-06-05 01:05 | Report Abuse

@dumbMoney, you're absolutely right. Shareholders have to defend their own interests by voting. Good to hear the case mentioned by Just88. The message should reach out to more of them.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-06-05 01:40 | Report Abuse

@observatory Based on the latest voting results, the gap between the two sides is about 10 million shares. This may look like a big number, but only requires 5 million shares switching side, from -5 to +5 = 10 million. Nothing is impossible in this world, who could have imagined that sworn enemies like UMNO and DAP are in bed together now?

Posted by ValueInvestor888 > 2023-06-06 14:53 | Report Abuse

Cannot sleep well for those who hold for 10 years looking at big discount and no buyer to buy if you have a lot of shares want to let go. The shares so liquid...TTB so thick skin to continue received fat advisory fee every year...

icapital.biz Berhad is certainly meant for the serious long-term investors, people who want to be able to sleep soundly at night and then wake up later to see their asset value has appreciated substantially.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-06-06 16:11 | Report Abuse

@ValueInvestor888 Any 'shareowner' who has kept the shares for the past 10 years would have to think very hard his options, continue to keep the shares for another 10 years (in order to qualify as a serious long term investor), sell them at a big discount and walk away, or maybe take a more active interest in his investment instead of just sleeping soundly over it every night.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-06-09 00:36 | Report Abuse

Like they say, a picture is worth a thousand words, so attached is a historical graph and figures tracking the 10-year iCap price changes from listing date on 19/10/2005 to now. This represents what the average shareholder would have gained from the share price change and dividends over any 10-year period, like what John Dough described, going to bed sleeping soundly every night. There are altogether 92 such 10-year holding periods using monthly data, and the average price change is 37.4%. On a CAGR basis, this works out to an average of 3.2% p.a.. I have added a trend line to the graph and this may partly explains the widening price discount – a long term dropping of returns. You can draw your own conclusions. Until the day when the NAV becomes a bankable number, share price and dividends are all an investor can get in terms of cash returns.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kptv2ol22r2ebf2/iCapital%20share%20price%20performance.xls?dl=0

Posted by JohnD0ugh > 2023-06-11 10:26 | Report Abuse

Should discount be a concern or a blessing?

First, discounts and premiums are unique features of closed-end funds that should be taken advantage of instead of being feared. For example, an investor that sells icapital. biz Berhad shares on 8 Jan 2008 when it was trading at premium of 25.6% and buys it back in Oct 2008 (when it was trading at a discount), will be able to earn additional gains that cannot be found in ETFs or open-end unit trust funds.

Secondly, discounts and premiums of CEFs are not permanent and are mean-reverting instead. Even the composition of the CEF shareholder list can be important, as exemplified by icapital.biz Berhad's experience.

Thirdly, very often, investors do not realise that they can buy the shares of icapital.biz Berhad at a discount to its NAV. On the other hand, investors of unit trust funds do not realise that they have to buy at a premium to NAV (due to entry fees) and have to sell at a discount to NAV (due to exit fees). In addition, investors of unit trust funds have to incur bid/offer spread, with the result that they do not buy or sell at NAVs. Investors in icapital.biz Berhad do not have to experience such unfair permanent premiums, discounts or bid/offer spreads.

If the transitory discount of icapital.biz Berhad is a concern, think about this : As at 26 Jul 2018, City of London has bought more than 27.6 mln (or 19.73%) of icapital. biz's shares since May 2010. Why? It has been exploiting the discount that Malaysian investors of icapital.biz Berhad have been offering to them. Crafty.


i Capital Newsletter Volume 30 Issue 1 (www.icapital.biz)

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-06-11 10:39 | Report Abuse

From the historical price/NAV discount chart, it can be clearly shown that the transition from premium to discount started from the Great Financial Crisis well before the buying by COL. It is the discount that attracted value investors like COL, and not the latter's entry causing the discount as alleged by management.

Posted by observatory > 2023-06-11 13:28 | Report Abuse

How funny that i Capital describes its NAV discount as "transitory"!
The Fed first described inflation as "transitory" in early 2021. But the Fed abandoned the term before year end after realizing that it was plainly wrong.
Now i Capital picked up the word "transitory" to describe its NAV discount, which has been widening for more than a decade. "Transitory" over the time scale of a century?
The discount will only be "mean-reverting" when either iCAP is forced to return hoarded cash to unit holders, or the Board is voted out in the next AGM.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-06-13 21:48 | Report Abuse

@observatory, In their books even owning the shares for more than 10 years may not qualify you as a long term investor.

Posted by Nepo > 2023-06-15 11:26 | Report Abuse

Not much time left for Icap manager to perform.
If still not performing, then the last opt is vote out

Posted by speakup > 2023-06-15 11:31 | Report Abuse

Vote OUT!

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-06-17 18:39 | Report Abuse

@ Nepo and speakup Easier said than done. You don't have the numbers!

Posted by willc48 > 2023-06-17 22:18 | Report Abuse

susah lah this company nak progress
margin very small. staff turnover? chinaman..

Posted by JohnD0ugh > 2023-06-18 20:14 | Report Abuse

The last few years have been very tough for a lot of investors. Making losses, whether through scams or genuine investments on the KLSE, have been the easy and certain path. Adding on to the already long list of woes and worries are the rising cost of living and weakening Ringgit. What should an investor do? How can an investor sail through such turbulent waters safely?

The CEO of Capital Dynamics cannot understand why people can be so easily scammed, not just in an online or mobile phone environment but also on the stock market. He finds it very perplexing and exhausting that he can patiently explained for hours to investors about value investing or why they should invest in a low-risk, high return stock like icapital.biz Berhad and failed to convince them when these people can be so easily convinced to transfer their hard earned savings or to buy Top Glove or MPI or speculative stocks and then be stuck with losses.

In order to avoid avoidable losses, investors need to be smarter and think more and deeply. For example, a typical silly comment found in some of the forums about icapital.biz Bhd (ICAP) is that it has a problem and should be avoided. What is this so-called "problem"? ICAP trades at a discount to its Net Asset Value (NAV).
Any genuine value investor would know that whenever the share price of a well-managed stock trades at a discount to its intrinsic value, it is always an excellent investing opportunity; that is, a low-risk, high-return investment. And what is even more unbelievable is that some of the commentators in these forums claim to be value investors. Frankly, they actually sound like the online scammers.

The second point to understand is that when one buys a stock at a premium, one often ends up with losses, sometime permanent losses. Buying Top Glove at RM8.00 or MPI at RM50 is just plain foolhardy. Top Glove recently plunged to below RM0.60 and MPI dived to below RM24.00. How to make back such losses?
On the other hand, what happens when one invests in ICAP shares at a discount? Over the last one year (up to 7 Jun 2023), the KLSE lost 9.4%. ICAP's share price was flat and NAV went up 5.6%.

Over the last 2 years, the person who bought a discounted ICAP share made a handsome profit of 18.5% (in terms of share price) and 16.5% (in NAV terms). The KLSE plunged 14.4%. Even over the last 3 years, the person who bought a discounted ICAP share made a decent profit of 8.8% (in terms of share price) and 25.5% (in NAV terms). The KLSE plunged 17.4%.

These figures are important. For example, a person who bought a discounted ICAP share 2 years ago will be 38.4% richer than the person who invested in the MSCI Malaysia index. What matters when investing is whether one makes a profit or loss, not whether there is a premium or a discount.

What is the point of having a premium when an investor buys and loses money?


i Capital Newsletter Volume 34 Issue 40 (www.icapital.biz)

Posted by fairplay > 2023-06-18 20:23 | Report Abuse

Holding Cash also involve Cost of Capital. Getting practucally nil returns and Paying needless 'investnment' fees to TTB. Such poor iCap share price performance record, reflective of standing and action of its FM and Board

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-06-23 15:24 | Report Abuse

The person who bought the shares 10 years ago would have nothing to show for it share price wise. Cherry picking examples are not going to convince people here. If the company, like the same smart investor, had bought back the company shares two years ago, it too, would have made the same 38.4% more than the MSCI Malaysia Index. On the argument that buying back shares reduce the cash reserve for other buying opportunities, very simple, sell part of the existing portfolio and use the funds to buy back the same portfolio through the company shares at a 40% discount and keep them as treasury shares. So there is no net outflow of cash in the books, but NAV is higher with the captured discount. What's not to like?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-06-24 01:20 | Report Abuse

For those not familiar with the term agency bias, here is a brief explanation courtesy of ChatGPT:
Agency bias refers to a situation where individuals, acting on behalf of others, prioritize their own interests or preferences over the best interests of the principal they are supposed to represent. It commonly arises in principal-agent relationships, where an agent is entrusted with making decisions or taking actions on behalf of a principal.

The concept of agency bias is rooted in the misalignment of interests between the principal and the agent. The principal expects the agent to act in their best interest and fulfill their objectives, but the agent may have their own motivations, incentives, or personal preferences that could conflict with those of the principal.

Here are a few key points to understand about agency bias:

Conflicting Interests: The agent may have interests that diverge from the principal's interests, which can create a bias in decision-making. For example, an agent may prioritize maximizing their own compensation or job security instead of maximizing the principal's profits.

Information Asymmetry: The agent may possess superior information or expertise compared to the principal, which can create an opportunity for the agent to exploit this information advantage for personal gain, leading to biased decision-making.

Moral Hazard: The existence of a principal-agent relationship can introduce moral hazard, where the agent takes on more risks or engages in opportunistic behavior because the consequences may not directly affect them. This can result in biased actions that benefit the agent at the expense of the principal.
Overall, agency bias highlights the challenges associated with delegating decision-making authority to agents and emphasizes the importance of designing effective governance structures and mechanisms to align the interests of principals and agents and minimize biased behavior.

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-06-25 09:25 | Report Abuse

https://www.bing.com/search?q=tan+teng+boo+youtube&cvid=d084114280474479ab42463d8ed591f3&aqs=edge..69i57j0l8.7787j0j4&FORM=ANAB01&PC=HCTS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLstZOnu9MU
Why the Ringgit has been falling? What is the longer term outlook for the Ringgit?
Tan Teng Boo has shared many youtube videos recently. Look through them for your education.

Posted by JohnD0ugh > 2023-06-25 11:04 | Report Abuse

In the 2022 annual report of icapital.biz Bhd (ICAP), a new name appeared in the list of top 30 shareholders of ICAP. HSBC Nominees (Asing) Sdn Bhd Exempt An For Brown Brothers Harriman & Co (CGWI Ltd) disclosed owning 990,000 ICAP shares.

HSBC Nominees (Asing) Sdn Bhd is not the same as Maybank Nominees (Tempatan) Sdn Bhd for example. The vital difference is that one is Asing (foreigner), the other is Tempatan (Malaysian). Will this new person/entity holding 990,000 ICAP shares as at 24 Aug 2022 buy more ICAP shares?

Finally, there remains tremendous value yet to be unlocked in the current low market valuation of ICAP. For instance, when the discount of ICAP narrows or reverts to a premium like it did in the 2005-2008 period, an investor gets to enjoy extra returns. If ICAP is wound up, and assuming a cost price of RM2.06, the investor makes a handsome profit of RM1.34 or 65% with little risk.

As explained above, the last few years have seen the world turned upside down, inside out. Many people have lost their hard earned savings, which were avoidable in many instances. The coming years, also explained above, promise to be extremely challenging as well and certainly no less difficult than the last few.

Investors should look for low-risk, high-return opportunities like ICAP. While some have complained about the discount to NAV of any well-managed stock, these pretty dumb people have missed the whole essence of investing.

Frankly, Capital Dynamics has been steadily buying more ICAP shares, as it presents a classic low-risk, high-return investment. Tan Teng Boo loves low-risk, high-return type of investment; a key reason why he has survived decades of boom and bust.

i Capital Newsletter Volume 34 Issue 40 (www.icapital.biz)


A TRULY Low Risk-High Return Investment

Did you know that if you bought ICAP shares 2 years ago, its share price has jumped 18.5% while the KLSE plunged 14.4%?

Join Capital Dynamics in this nationwide roadshow of icapital.biz Berhad (ICAP) from 1st to 16th July 2023 in eight locations across Malaysia.

Listen to Tan Teng Boo explains why ICAP is an excellent buy now, even for the shorter-term.

Whether you are a shareowner or a potential one, come interact with him as he shares his views on markets, how we have successfully managed ICAP through uncertain times and its longer-term prospects

Posted by observatory > 2023-06-25 12:43 | Report Abuse

"ICAP is an excellent buy now, even for the shorter-term"
Really?

If it's such an excellent buy, why does ICAP with its RM100+m idle cash does not buy ICAP itself?
Why does TTB want new investors to benefit, but taking no action to benefit the ICAP old investors?

Posted by observatory > 2023-06-25 12:47 | Report Abuse

3iii, thank you for the sharing. I watched some part of it.
I agree it's good for any investor to pick up knowledge about balance of payment and other factors affecting currency movement.

However, I must point out that, maybe TTB can explain it well, but so are any good economist.
Besides, TTB's job is a value oriented equity fund manager, not an economist, nor a macro hedge fund manager.

If he could apply his macro knowledge to benefits his fund, even tangentially, it will be good for his fundholders.
But clearly he could only talk but fails to connect.
Anyone who could foresee that the Malaysian Ringgit is on a long term downward trend will be very dumb to hold half of his fund in Ringgit for over a decade.

After deducting for tax and management fee, the idle cash in Ringgit basically gives zero return to fundholders in nominal term, and negative return in real term due to inflation and Ringgit deprecation.
A smart manager would have converted the depreciating Ringgit to earning powers, in the form of ownership in good companies, long long time ago!

Posted by observatory > 2023-06-26 13:05 | Report Abuse

I've finished watching TTB's YouTube. His explanation is sensible.

Anyone interested on the Ringgit value may also check out The Edge Tong's Portfolio published on every Sat. The Edge's boss has written a number of articles on this topic, covering both cyclical and structural factors mentioned by TTB.

Apr 10: "What determines the exchange rate and is ringgit fundamentally undervalued?"
Apr 17: "The dichotomy of words and actions on the ringgit"
Latest: "A depreciated ringgit is an indirect tax on savings"

Tong touched on the interplay of these factors
1. interest rate differentials
2. inflation - also how our CPI was understated
3. trade balance - Malaysia has enjoyed 20+ years of current account surplus. But the surplus has dwindled, and how the magnitude is dependent on the commodity prices;
4. investment flow - how our share of FDI within ASEAN has dwindled since Asian Financial Crisis, coevred in depth in his other articles
5. investor confidence - Malaysia imposed capital control twice - in 1998, and a lesser form in 2016; scandal like 1MDB; political stability....
6. government debt, and so on.

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-06-28 15:40 | Report Abuse

Net Asset Value per share of icapital.biz Berhad as at 21 June 2023 is 3.42.

Posted by ks55 > 2023-06-29 16:20 | Report Abuse

Quality of your fund managers reflect in his video clip here. No wonder icap is not performing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLstZOnu9MU

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-07-01 23:10 | Report Abuse

Let's look at the following possible scenarios: 1. Since management thinks there are so few worthwhile investments in the market at the moment and bank interest rates have gone up quite a bit. Sell all existing shares in the portfolio and hold nothing but cash, i.e. the NAV of each share is fully backed by cash, what should the share price discount be then? Still at 40%? Don't worry about the cash shell classification, because there is no change in the company's business, as cash is still an investment asset, the company's main business. 2. After being all cash, the company then buys back its own shares in the market if still trading at a discount and carry them as treasury shares, can any investment be better than buying cash at a discount? Theoretically, the company can then run the treasury shares as a buffer stock, buy when discount is wide, and sell back into the market when discount narrows. As long as the buying is at below NAV and selling is above buy back cost price, the company cannot lose money because there is no mark to market risk for cash, and the interest rates on cash deposits are now more than enough to cover management fees and tax.