Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-26 17:49 | Report Abuse

@Patient Investor Please read COL's investment philosophy that I have posted earlier, it is self explanatory. I never claimed their intention is never to liquidate it, it is just that so far, it has not indicated any such intention. I cannot read their mind, can only see what their actions are so far.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-26 17:55 | Report Abuse

Also, SBB is limited to only 10% of a company's share capital, so there will still be plenty of cash left in the kitty for other bargains. Besides, the option is there to keep them as treasury shares, so the question to ask is, why is buying the existing portfolio at a 40% discount not such a good idea, if the reason for the cash hoard is that there are no bargains out there?

Posted by EngineeringProfit > 2023-08-26 17:59 | Report Abuse

Don't bother. Next week just sapu all. No buy, no big huat later

Posted by speakup > 2023-08-26 20:03 | Report Abuse

I sapu already rm2. Wakakaka

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-26 20:28 | Report Abuse

I have already suggested a dividend with automatic investment plan that is in use in the market with success by other funds. Let's see how much better will TTB's version be after his extensive research and innovation. Just hope it is not another exercise to reinvent the wheel.

Posted by JohnD0ugh > 2023-08-27 23:14 | Report Abuse

Buy low sell high does not work consistently because it is very difficult to predict a market trend, a company's earnings or a country's GDP accurately on a consistent basis. Of course, out of say 100 times, there will of course be a couple of times when one gets it correct. This is like predicting heads or tails when a coin is tossed a hundred times.

If one thinks about it carefully, such a result is not surprising. If timing the stock or market could be done accurately on a consistent basis, people like the CEO of Capital Dynamics would be free to just sit in front of the monitor and trade profitably; there would be no need to work so hard and conduct all that research and analysis.

Noteworthy at this point is what Benjamin Graham, the father of value investing, has to say on such matters

"As in all other activities that emphasize price movements first and underlying values second, the work of many intelligent minds constantly engaged in this field tends to be self-neutralizing and self-defeating over the years. The investor with a portfolio of sound stocks should expect their prices to fluctuate and should neither be concerned by sizable declines nor become excited by sizable advances. He should always remember that market quotations are there for his convenience, either to be taken advantage of or to be ignored. He should never buy a stock because it has gone up or sell one because it has gone down."

- Benjamin Graham, The Intelligent Investor

Ben Graham, the teacher of Warren Buffett, added :

"A stock is not just a ticker symbol or an electronic blip; it is an ownership interest in an actual business, with an underlying value that does not depend on its share price."

The intellectual approach towards investing in the stock market differs greatly between those who time the market or stocks and those who practise value investing. For the former, the market index or stock price is just a number to predict, making it in essence similar to gambling or speculating; for the latter, the market index is meaningless and irrelevant while the stock prices are to be used only in comparisons with the intrinsic value of a stock or business.


i Capital Newsletter Volume 31 Issue 36 (www.icapital.biz)

Posted by RealValueInvestor > 2023-08-29 17:11 | Report Abuse

@JohnD0ugh you quoted from the Company: "A stock is not just a ticker symbol or an electronic blip; it is an ownership interest." Isn't this exactly why owners should engage with Companies and be treated respectfully and listened to when they do? Of course in THIS companies case:
1. the Company uses shareholders' money to unsuccesfully take shareholders to court;
2. the Board appoints the investment manager (who, of course and correctly from his narrow point of view, has one eye on his fees) to talk to shareholders in the board's place.
So it is highly likely that the proper connection between the owners and the board is broken!

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-29 17:21 | Report Abuse

Very simple, at the AGM, just ask the board whose decision it was to take COL to court? The designated person's mandate is only on the management of the portfolio. Dispute with the shareholder is within the purview of the Board. All that we have heard about the harm of COL's presence has been from you know who so far. Get the board to explain the basis of the court action, other than the 20% shareholding limit, which was already thrown out at the SC level as without merits.

Posted by speakup > 2023-08-29 21:32 | Report Abuse

look like we all want TTB out!

Posted by ZhugeLiang88 > 2023-08-31 09:41 | Report Abuse

I find the biggest issue is the lack of alignment of interest between the Fund Manager and the owners of the fund. And due to that, human psychology will kick in to bend the truth to a reality that is acceptable by them. Example, Elizabeth Holmes (former CEO of Theranos) really did believe she was helping the world (Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/22/ex-theranos-ceo-holmes-believed-she-was-helping-the-world-author-says.html). Thus, its no surprise TTB truly believe Share Buyback (SBB), when bought at a discount to NAV, does not help in reducing the discount, because it is against the fund manager's benefits.

The easiest is to have a SBB policy, to buy back from the open market anytime the discount is say 2% or more of the fund's NAV, and to sell shares back to open market when the stock price is 2% or more of the NAV, with unlimited capital, with no expiration date.

Another option (which can also be done together with the above), is to align the fund manager's interest with the shareholders, namely:
1) Modify the fund manager's pay from 1.5% of NAV, to 1.5% of Market Cap.
2) Pay the fund manager in units, instead of cash.
3) Requires the fund manager to own at least 5 years of his/her compensation in the fund (equivalent to 7.5% of the fund's NAV).
4) Pay the fund manager a fixed fee (or better yet, fixed units), and not percentage of the fund size.

The (4) options above isn't as good as SBB when at discount to NAV and selling those shares at premium to NAV, but it is still way, way better than current arrangement

Of course, to do all these, it requires smart shareholders to vote wisely for directors that would effect those changes, Just like the our Malaysia's politics, It requires that the voters be smart to choose the right leader to effect a change towards better Malaysia.

Posted by speakup > 2023-08-31 13:06 | Report Abuse

Bottom line is TTB must go

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-08-31 15:08 | Report Abuse

After price hit $2.94, there were very strong profits taking with 4 days down from 22/8 till 25/8. Loss of almost 8% within 4 days, huh huh :(....thought it will continue to crash down but nice price action support by COL on 28/8....bought almost every sell orders for that day. COL looks like determine to buy more and more. Price target 3.5 will be realized sooner than most think. Vote with your wallet and not with your mouth...another way of saying put your money where your mouth is...heh...heh? :)

Posted by Patient Investor > 2023-08-31 16:47 | Report Abuse

I believe all investors besides COL invest in Icap due to TTB is the fund manager, and now @speakup claimed "we all want TTB to go"

Its actually pretty obvious someone just want to make a quick killing instead of long term investment.
If the thesis is whenever its below NAV, the fund manager should do a SBB. Then most of the properties company should use their cash to do SBB as most of them is trading below NTA. but there's a problem, after the cash are spent, what's left to build on the landbank?

Posted by EngineeringProfit > 2023-08-31 16:49 | Report Abuse

Except me. I'm holding for other reason

Posted by Patient Investor > 2023-08-31 17:01 | Report Abuse

If TTB is out, who will be taking the place? COL will likely get seat on the board and appoint someone.

Will long term shareholders feel comfortable with this? Who knows what can the appointed manager can do to the fund?
If long term shareholders don't believe the appointment, they will left with the only choice of sell at a discount to NAV. And guess who will be the biggest beneficiary?

I prefer to wait another few years to see if TTB is capable to grow the fund at a higher CAGR, which is a more reliable way to close the gap betwen marketcap and NAV. If he fail, then shareholders can call for EGM to liquidate the fund.

Posted by Patient Investor > 2023-08-31 17:01 | Report Abuse

@EngineeringProfit Mind to share your reason?

Posted by speakup > 2023-08-31 18:33 | Report Abuse

YES please share
Tq

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-08-31 21:28 | Report Abuse

I believe TTB original intention trying to setup a closed end as opposed to open end funds has a few reasons. The obvious advantage of closed end funds could prevent draw down during market downturn because there is a secondary market to allow those who want to exit or enter the market. In other words, TTB has the flexibility to raise cash at the market top and to deploy cash when stock market is crashing without worry about fund redemptions. This philosophy is also very similar to a fund manager that running Pheim funds tactically determine amount of cash to hold/invest. They tend to make concentrated bets on a few winners but there are also a numbers of losers in their portfolio. This kind of investing style will typically move side way and suddenly make a big move in NAV. Just for an example, when you buy in year 2011, it make side ways for a number of years, many will be very frustrated looking their investment fluctuating within a small band...the frustrated "shareowners" will tend to sell at a discount due to liquidity issue. When you have an illiquid stock, you just need to sell down a couple of hundred thousand shares to drive down share price a lot.

Secondly, he does not have an extensive marketing arm like Public Mutual to allow small investors to invest only a small portion of their funds. if you see his other open end funds, the minimum amount is huge USD 100 k for his Global fund, A$ 5k for his ICAPBF, A$ 20 k for international value fund and etc.....as for ICAP.BIZ you can buy a little as MYR 2k or lesser.

The downside, unfortunately you will get all kind of investor base(regardless of closed end or open end).....but only with 1 objective, make money. Call them long term, traders, speculators or suckers, etc......you will have all of them. This is something TTB has to accept. I doubt how many long term investors are there, if we traced the major shareholders from the annual reports, a lot them with big positions come and go. You just compare the top 30 largest investors in 2006, 2016 and 2022....you will see how shares has changed hands within that span of time(I just picked 10 years interval to see how many of them can hold that long)...you check it out yourself. Those with large positions most likely contributed to the discount when they decided to exit.

Share price is determined by supply and demand, if most of the "shareowners" are short term oriented, you will see supply greater than demand. If you really have long term "shareowners", no one sells, when demand is greater than supply, there is only one way somebody needs to pay more either at NAV or even at a premium. It's pure market mechanism 101. Good luck in attracting the like minds.......in stock market.....it's animal spirit and not religion beliefs that rule.

Posted by ZhugeLiang88 > 2023-09-01 12:05 | Report Abuse

Patient Investor : "after the cash are spent [for Share Buybacks, SBB], what's left to build on the landbank?"

Instead of using cash for SBB, the fund manager can reduce each holdings proportionately (including cash) when doing SBB at a discount to NAV. This way:
1) the fund remains having cash for bullets (at the same percentage of the remaining fund size), and at the same time,
2) increases its NAV per share for existing shareholders, and also
3) allow people who wants to sell their holdings in the fund (maybe need money for emergency or other needs) at a fairer price than the huge unjustified discounts.

The only downside, is perhaps.... the fund manager's pay is reduced (due to shrinking fund size), even though its NAV on a per share basis increases.

Posted by speakup > 2023-09-02 15:28 | Report Abuse

Sometimes I wonder where was everyone when icap was rm2? It was soooo quiet here then. speakup bought rm2

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-09-02 16:42 | Report Abuse

@speakup COL would have bought up all the shares available at that price then, but was blocked. So the share price could have been much higher then. Lucky for you to be able to buy at that price all because of the injunction.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-09-02 17:00 | Report Abuse

Unless you have bought up all the shares available at $2, there must be plenty of others doing that too, including TTB.

Posted by speakup > 2023-09-02 17:04 | Report Abuse

Yes plenty at rm2 few months ago, but few takers. Now rm2.80 semua rebut

Posted by Patient Investor > 2023-09-03 18:25 | Report Abuse

@zhuge the job of a fund manager is not to manipulate the share price of its own fund through active purchase/selling.

In value investing, the only rational thing to do during price depression in regards to actual value is to keep buying and wait, instead of wishing the gap closes faster.

There are two type of investor here, one might hope to cash out at a fairer level, and another hope the price just keep depress so they can collect along the way.

Posted by Patient Investor > 2023-09-03 18:30 | Report Abuse

If Icap utilized the cash to do a SBB to push price up, and COL start selling, who would be the loser if not the long term shareholder?

Posted by speakup > 2023-09-03 18:35 | Report Abuse

Those bought at rm2 are winners

Posted by JohnD0ugh > 2023-09-03 20:51 | Report Abuse

Another way a value investor expresses their humility is by holding cash - lots of it in fact - when there is nothing attractive to invest in. If there are not enough securities to fill out a portfolio that meet value investing criteria, the answer is simply to hold cash until such securities can be found.

To be sure, holding cash is not the ultimate aim of a value investor; it is a by-product of the value investing process where humility is a huge part of its risk management.

For businesses and firms, cash is a necessity for dealing with the unexpected. Cash is the heart and blood of businesses. Cash and liquidity are much more important to a firm's survival than earnings or profitability.
Cash serves a similar purpose from an investor's or a portfolio manager's standpoint.

Cash is the most vital raw material for an investor. If one can be absolutely sure that all the stocks one has bought are the correct stocks at the correct prices and valuations, or that there will not be any better opportunities coming your way later, then holding cash become superfluous. How can one be so cocky?

As Tan Teng Boo has previously shared, holding cash is like holding a very valuable option, except that it is one with no expiry date. The value of an option depends on its expiry date, amongst other factors.
The longer the expiry date, the more valuable the option becomes. An option has a fixed conversion price. With cash, it is the investor or the fund manager who decides what the conversion price will be.

Since a value investor will buy only at an attractive price, the value of the option or cash goes up. In summary, whether one is managing a business or managing a portfolio, it is a privilege to have a strong balance sheet now, one that is especially filled with cash.


i Capital Newsletter Volume 31 Issue 36 (www.icapital.biz)

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-09-03 23:32 | Report Abuse

Do you all remember this quote " if the cash portion of the portfolio is taken out, the performance would have been even better".

Posted by ZhugeLiang88 > 2023-09-04 18:04 | Report Abuse

"The job of a fund manager is not to manipulate the share price of its own fund through active purchase/selling."
I Agree. But buying back its stocks when its at a discount, and selling it to the open market when its at premium, is not manipulate. If you can't see the logic, you can imagine icap invest in an undervalued fund when its selling at a discount to its NAV, and when its at a premium to NAV, sells it, just like you would buy it if icap is selling at discount right now.

"If Icap utilized the cash to do a SBB to push price up, and COL start selling, who would be the loser if not the long term shareholder?"
The loser, is obvious. TTB. His fees might be reduced. You can also say investors like you might not get to accumulate more at a huge discount to NAV, but the aim is to benefit from the growth of NAV per share of the fund, and NOT from gaining more than the NAV growth at the expense of another shareholder who earns less returns than the NAV growth.

"In value investing, the only rational thing to do during price depression in regards to actual value is to keep buying and wait, instead of wishing the gap closes faster."
Yes, thus icap should buy that undervalued fund, and hope that the price remains depressed for a long term so that icap can continue to buy more and more.

Posted by stockraider > 2023-09-04 20:06 | Report Abuse

TTB miss opportunity of making a killing for shareholders of Icap & for capital dynamics when this stock is trading at a discount of 40% to 50% to its NAV mah!

Instead of taking advantage of this unique opportunity TTB chose to put its fund to FD & argue with its biggest shareholders city of london mah!

Thus likely Icap will be liquidated going fwd....it will be too late for TTB to salvage bcos his reputation is impaired due to his previous 8 yrs poor performance loh!

Posted by ZhugeLiang88 > 4 days ago | Report Abuse

I find the biggest issue is the lack of alignment of interest between the Fund Manager and the owners of the fund. And due to that, human psychology will kick in to bend the truth to a reality that is acceptable by them. Example, Elizabeth Holmes (former CEO of Theranos) really did believe she was helping the world (Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/22/ex-theranos-ceo-holmes-believed-she-was-helping-the-world-author-says.html). Thus, its no surprise TTB truly believe Share Buyback (SBB), when bought at a discount to NAV, does not help in reducing the discount, because it is against the fund manager's benefits.

The easiest is to have a SBB policy, to buy back from the open market anytime the discount is say 2% or more of the fund's NAV, and to sell shares back to open market when the stock price is 2% or more of the NAV, with unlimited capital, with no expiration date.

Another option (which can also be done together with the above), is to align the fund manager's interest with the shareholders, namely:
1) Modify the fund manager's pay from 1.5% of NAV, to 1.5% of Market Cap.
2) Pay the fund manager in units, instead of cash.
3) Requires the fund manager to own at least 5 years of his/her compensation in the fund (equivalent to 7.5% of the fund's NAV).
4) Pay the fund manager a fixed fee (or better yet, fixed units), and not percentage of the fund size.

The (4) options above isn't as good as SBB when at discount to NAV and selling those shares at premium to NAV, but it is still way, way better than current arrangement

Of course, to do all these, it requires smart shareholders to vote wisely for directors that would effect those changes, Just like the our Malaysia's politics, It requires that the voters be smart to choose the right leader to effect a change towards better Malaysia.

Posted by ZhugeLiang88 > 2023-09-04 22:43 | Report Abuse

Icapital does not needs to be liqudated since there are investors who wants TTB to manage their money (thru icapital.biz).

What is needed, is a proper governance and policy in place to ensure that the stock price stays close to its NAV (say, +/- 2%) thru buybacks when discount, and selling/issuing shares when its at premium.

This way, it allows all investors to have their stock performance in price commensurate to the performance of the fund's NAV per share during their holdings.

Buffett says it best in his 1995 letter to Berkshire shareholders, "What we would prefer instead is to have the market price of Berkshire precisely track its intrinsic value. Were the stock to do that, every shareholder would benefit during his period of ownership in exact proportion to the progress Berkshire itself made in the period."

If icap's stock price is trades at a substantial discount to its NAV, its good for the buyer, which comes at the expense of the seller. Likewise, if icap's stock price is at a premium to its NAV, its good for the seller, but it is at the expense of the buyer. Peter is earning a better return at the expense of Paul.

And if icap is trading at a persistent discount while the management is not doing anything about it, perhaps the discount is warranted. That's why you have activist. You don't see any activist in Berkshire, partly due to its size, but mainly because it is consistantly selling close it its intrinsic value at almost all the time.

Posted by speakup > 2023-09-05 12:00 | Report Abuse

So buy Allianz, Takaful?

Posted by speakup > 2023-09-05 21:32 | Report Abuse

then might as well buy a unit trust 100%

Posted by Patient Investor > 2023-09-06 17:39 | Report Abuse

@zhuge I think berkshire hathaway NAV growth is way higher than icap, hence it make sense for buffet to perform a buy back. A growth fund goal is to invest in growth companies, instead of finding trading below NTA stocks and wish the share price will eventually catch up. And it's worse if the fund is the one buying up the price...

Posted by Patient Investor > 2023-09-06 17:49 | Report Abuse

@zhuge if the funds own one share, and the share is trading at a discount to its NTA, which also directly affects the fund NAV, should the fund buy more of the share in order for it to close the gap, and boost own NAV?

Under such practice, the manager is consider active trading on share price movement.

And how investor justify the request for fund manager to close the gap through buy back, why dont investor themselves keep buying to increase own ownership to close the gap?

And once the gap is close, what do investor do? hoping other investors to buy their shares ?

Posted by RealValueInvestor > 2023-09-08 19:26 | Report Abuse

https://www.theaic.co.uk/sites/default/files/documents/QC-Investment-Trust-Engagement-Report-Jul23.pdf

Pages 13 and 23 are interesting reading in the context of ICAP.....

Posted by speakup > 2023-09-08 21:53 | Report Abuse

How many % COL own icap?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-09-10 12:25 | Report Abuse

Re the 'prescribed limit' on foreign shareholdings. This is what the regulation says : "“prescribed limit” means a quota, restriction or limit on the ownership of shares by a foreigner imposed on the issuer by the
memorandum and articles of association or any other constituent
document of the issuer. Where is such a restriction in the constitution?

Posted by speakup > 2023-09-10 12:32 | Report Abuse

In a Casino Bull market, ppl like damagu come out to advertise their stock selection service

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-09-10 15:24 | Report Abuse

While the fund manager is busy hammering out his unique and innovative dividend plan, here is an existing one that has been managing the price premium/discount of a CEF within a narrow range with its built-in mechanism. How do I know? I am a shareholder.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/qvjjqr9zeo4vtgtaf7lie/Dividend-with-reinvestment-model-post.doc?rlkey=kj5im29kv9n91vk5mg8t9rc1s&dl=0

Posted by speakup > 2023-09-11 07:40 | Report Abuse

https://www.bursamalaysia.com/market_information/announcements/company_announcement/announcement_details?ann_id=3384364
What does this mean?

Posted by JohnD0ugh > 2023-09-11 08:42 | Report Abuse

Once again, despite a very tough and rough environment, icapital.biz Berhad has achieved a very strong performance with its NAV appreciating 20.93% and its share price surging 35.66% for the two years ended 25 July 2023.

Both have strongly outperformed the 7.59% plunge in the bellwether MSCI Malaysia index.

Meanwhile, icapital.biz Berhad continues to invest more. Its cash assets have been falling steadily. This implies that its NAV will be appreciating further. With Capital Dynamics’ time-proven value investing philosophy, and icapital.biz Berhad still undervalued, it is actually an excellent time to invest more in this truly low-risk, high-return investment. A profit of 35.66% in a market that fell 7.59% is indeed a rare gem.


icapital.biz Berhad 4Q23 Report

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-09-11 22:08 | Report Abuse

Re announcement posted by speakup....
It will just add uncertainty to the stock and widening the discount again....
Let's see how deep are the pockets of small investors to keep buying and try to narrowing the discount......if everyday only a couple of thousand shares changed hand it will take a long long time of moving sideway if we are lucky but if we are unlucky some emo small timers might just take whatever buyers price.....crashing down the stock. Then TTB will start buying again ? He and his fund have accumulated not small amount of shares ... already reaching 2.18% as of 1 Sept 2023....Is TTB actions driving down or COL talked down the share price? ^-^

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-09-11 22:54 | Report Abuse

Most probably just another excuse to take COL to court again and get an injunction to stop the latter from accumulating more shares.

Posted by Patient Investor > 2023-09-13 16:22 | Report Abuse

If COL is being forced to par down holdings to 20%. and retailer queue at RM1 and below, what would happen?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-09-13 16:48 | Report Abuse

How many days of limit down will that be?

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-09-13 17:30 | Report Abuse

Net Asset Value per share of icapital.biz Berhad as at 6 September 2023 is 3.56.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-09-13 19:12 | Report Abuse

@patient investor - if you have shares now, sell it and wait for RM 1

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-09-13 19:15 | Report Abuse

@dumbMoney - +/- 3,000,000 shares at 30,000 shares per day - 100 trading days....Enough to shake the small timers
Today already people willing to let go at 2.59

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-09-13 20:03 | Report Abuse

If TTB think we can run bad mouth campaign to shake off confidence is akin to the pen is mightier than the sword. thinking..then the richest man on earth should be a writer not an investor or speculator.....if we think we are bigger than the market, we just kidding ourselves. ^---^