Posted by goldmanbull > 2023-10-02 10:48 | Report Abuse

Also does anyone know if taking 15% above annual 5% performance and cummulative yearly 5% performance is reasonable? Sorry, im not an expert here and would like to learn from you guys. Is this fees reasonable comparing to others in the market? thanks

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-10-02 12:45 | Report Abuse

>>>
goldmanbull

Also does anyone know if taking 15% above annual 5% performance and cummulative yearly 5% performance is reasonable? Sorry, im not an expert here and would like to learn from you guys. Is this fees reasonable comparing to others in the market? thanks
>>>


Avoid such funds.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-02 13:21 | Report Abuse

Wah Tiga i.....so firm.....TTB nanti 😭😭

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-02 13:33 | Report Abuse

I would not give specific answer but those want to go by performance-based fees, it should be simple and in absolute return %. No complaints how tough is the stock market environment or you are better than the index.

In the early days of Warren Buffet when we ran fund for his friends, his performance structure was clear: above 6% take 24% in excess of that, below 6% go home empty handed ZERO.....Example let's say one year his fund return 7%. He takes only 1% x 24% = .24%, you get to keep 6.76% of the return. If he losses your money ZERO, if he return 5.99% ZERO for him. He didn't charge entry and exit fees. 😂😂

So need to do the math to determine whether worth it or not. If you can't work out the mechanism or scenario then you don't understand it, if you don't understand it, put the money you don't need to understand it with no capital loss....😂😂

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-10-02 16:21 | Report Abuse

Warren Buffett, the investment guru, has said the best way for most investors to own common stocks is through an index fund that charges minimal fees, saying they will "beat the net results delivered by the great majority of investment professionals".

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-02 22:44 | Report Abuse

As I wrote in my book, for a non-professional golfer, if someone can guarantee you par for the course without trying, just grab it. This is what index fund is offering to the non-professional investors.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-03 00:04 | Report Abuse

So after all the intensive research, innovation and consultation with foreign experts, the company has come out with a dividend reinvestment plan as part of the new dividend policy. How innovative and unique is that? I already told them so earlier, what others have been doing all this while. Pay the dividend with new shares. Those who need the cash can sell their shares, simple as that. Wonder how much the consultants are charging the company for this?

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 08:34 | Report Abuse

Not all index funds are created equal.....only US market S&P 500 is probably is an exception. KLCI e.g. depending on your entry timing, buying at the wrong timing is probably going nowhere. So is Singapore, STI and needless to say Hong Kong HSI or HSCEI and etc......Only when a stock market crashed like 40-50%, going for a big swing with index funds will be OK....😎

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 08:39 | Report Abuse

iCAP has a tendency of grandstanding trying to create differentiation for the same thing. Forgive the old man....As for the DRP....with enough take up, it will dilute COL ownership over time if COL elected to take cash. That's all the more, 23% ownership in excess of 20% is not a concern to me. They just keep trying to contain COL. 🤐

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-10-03 10:15 | Report Abuse

>>>
FastMoney666

Not all index funds are created equal.....only US market S&P 500 is probably is an exception. KLCI e.g. depending on your entry timing, buying at the wrong timing is probably going nowhere. So is Singapore, STI and needless to say Hong Kong HSI or HSCEI and etc......Only when a stock market crashed like 40-50%, going for a big swing with index funds will be OK....😎
>>>

Very true. You will need to invest into the S&P 500 Index fund run by Vanguard.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-03 11:20 | Report Abuse

In the 1990's there was only 1 "Index Fund" unit trust available in Malaysia, and what it did was just to invest in the index component stocks, not to track the index itself, and the full sales charges applied.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 12:05 | Report Abuse

Ooops....I had better be specific.....ETF and not mutual funds. And there are mutual fund companies simply just blend ETFs and sell it to investors in the name of democratize wealth management industry.....LoL. Caveat Emptor.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 13:56 | Report Abuse

One other thing - there are physical ETFs and also synthetic ETFs...Physical ETFs will really go and buy the index component stocks and will receive dividends. They will also distribute the dividends to investors. Synthetic ETFs may use only swaps and collateral...now I seeing some people shaking heads saying WTF @x!##$ 😡 Nothing is easy in the investing world. Now you see when you really want to execute on such a simple idea got so much more issues. 😂😂

I like financial jungles because it's fair because of 3 big words: Risk Adjusted Return. Welcome to the Hunger Games the moment you have itchy hands want to chase after return higher than FD, Fixed Income, EPF........Are you happy with 3-5% with zero risk(volatility) or 10% return with 20% risk(volatility or variance)?

P.S Not trying to show off but I was crazy enough to try all kind of things......sometimes fingers burnt till unrecognizable but sometimes also got happy endings. Just sharings. Cheers🍺🍺

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-03 16:07 | Report Abuse

@FastMoney666 On Risk Adjusted Return, iCap has claimed to be a low risk high returns stock, you agree?

Posted by smallbilis > 2023-10-03 16:10 |

Post removed.Why?

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 16:48 | Report Abuse

Low risk high return? it's not for the faint hearted for sure.

I want to take 2013 to 2023 again.

Year --- NAV change % -- Cash Level %
2013 --- 16 -- 51
2014 --- -8 -- 63
2015 --- 8 -- 62
2016 --- 11 -- 68
2017 -- 46 -- 54
2018 -- -39 -- 68
2019 -- -5 -- 68
2020 -- -4 -- 50
2021 -- 58 -- 34
2022 -- -20 -- 34
2023 -- 14 -- 30

Average return(Mean) 7%, standard deviation 27%.

Despite of high cash level, volatility is kind of high.

Stripping of the cash, his invested portfolio volatility is even higher.

Looks like no pains no gains, no f**k no son to me....just like the rest of us.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 16:55 | Report Abuse

I am not saying it's a bad return but just that we should be more humble and tell it as it is.....I would say....dear shareholders, I promise you that you won't suffer permanent capital loss. Hang on to your seat belt when the seas are rough. When it is way too rough out there, we are going to the shore and hide for a couple of days(converting to cash)....when the sea is calmer and others are afraid, we will go out and do a few catches but we might get big fish but sometimes luck is not on our side, we might get a few kembong fish or ikan bilis. 🤣🤣Cheers 🍺🍺

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 17:05 | Report Abuse

Thank you for both Cikgu....(7%-5.49%)/27% = 0.055 < 1

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 17:07 | Report Abuse

So how ??? Good news is not negative....but to argue a low risk and high return case in a finance class....I think I will be same like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs-- a college drop out --- a rich one 😂😂

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-03 17:08 | Report Abuse

Sharpe Ratio gives you risk adjusted returns, returns/volatility.

Posted by smallbilis > 2023-10-03 17:11 |

Post removed.Why?

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 17:15 | Report Abuse

we are realist....we know as long a return is okay la....but just cannot tahan when someone claim low risk high return...to us it's still high risk okay return la....

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 17:16 | Report Abuse

otherwise we won't buy iCap despite of the flaw claims.....just try to speak out nia....no angry ya

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 17:18 | Report Abuse

volatility means you may get caught if you try to time his NAV and decide timing to buy

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 17:19 | Report Abuse

it can swing either way from mean

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 17:24 | Report Abuse

Just that if we can find any investment with sharpe ratio of 1 with 27% deviation, to compensate for the risk, Expected return should be 32%.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-03 18:02 | Report Abuse

If you are a bumi, you can buy the PNB ASB units, buying and selling price is always pegged at $1, so theoretically, there is no downside risk because you can always sell back the units at the same price you paid for. So price volatility is zero. It is the returns that varies. From inception in 1990 to 2009, the minimum dividend returns paid out annually was 7% before additional bonus units, This includes during the Asian Financial Crisis and the Great Financial Crisis, where the local markets lost a big chunk of its value. PNB must have some of the best fund managers in the world to maintain such a positive track record. If ever there is such a thing as a free lunch, this is it.

Posted by EngineeringProfit > 2023-10-03 18:17 | Report Abuse

Not true. That's cheat mode i.e. daytime robbery. Since the universe follows the zero-sum rule, they'll have to pay back in the after life - hudud hands away, etc

Posted by EngineeringProfit > 2023-10-03 18:28 | Report Abuse

They make be able to lie to the kampong folks, but not G*d. Their tongues will be hudud away in the afterlife

Posted by smallbilis > 2023-10-03 18:30 |

Post removed.Why?

Posted by smallbilis > 2023-10-03 18:31 |

Post removed.Why?

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 18:32 | Report Abuse

If I can find such an investment, I will put every penny when I get my paycheck(100% allocation). Assuming, 3k per month, 36 k per year, 19 years compounded with 7% --> 1.57 million 😎

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 18:33 | Report Abuse

Honestly, do I dare to do the same with iCapital ? ....... Teng teng....akan datang........close shop for today 😂😂

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-03 21:11 | Report Abuse

https://mykmu.net/2021/12/23/sejarah-dividen-asb-dari-tahun-1990-2021/

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-03 21:17 | Report Abuse

And this comes with an auto-reinvestment plan by default, just leave the dividends in the account. No need to hire foreign consultants to devise discount reducing plan, because there is never any discount nor premium to start with. Even the Ma Cik and the Pa Cik from the kampongs can understand, no need spend money on Investors Day to educate them.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-03 21:25 | Report Abuse

FastMoney, even though that's your name, still you can't make money multiply that fast. Using the rough rule of 72, 10 years to double your 36K, 20 years to quadruple that only gives you 144K lah.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 21:43 | Report Abuse

Adding 36 k every year for 19 years not start with 36 k and no additions😂😂

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 21:43 | Report Abuse

Will get that dek

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 21:45 | Report Abuse

Annual additions 36 k....meaning keep topping up every month of 3 k.....228 installments(19 years x 12 months)

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-03 21:53 | Report Abuse

OK, sorry, my mistake. My old HP calculator died on me after more than 40 years, so can't calculate the FV of the annuity off hand.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 22:05 | Report Abuse

Since we don't have some so nice like PNB ASB....EPF is something closer
Year***Return***Addition***Balance at year end
2013**6.35%**36,000**38,286
2014**6.75%**36,000**79,300
2015**6.40%**36,000*122,679
2016**5.70%**36,000**167,724
2017**6.90%**36,000**217,781
2018**6.15%**36,000**269,389
2019**5.45%**36,000*322,032
2020**5.2%**36,000**376,650
2021**6.1%**36,000**437,821
2022**5.2%36,000**498,461

Average return 6.02%, std dev 0.61 Sharpe ratio = 0.87 using US risk free 5.49% for iCap calculation earlier.....

Assume 6% return from year 2022, next 10 years compounded at 6% will give us $ 894, 352.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 22:07 | Report Abuse

Let's see icap can give us that kind of return after 20 years bo......240 installments x 3 k per month.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 22:08 | Report Abuse

No problem bro -- I still have HP12c 25th Anniversary Edition.....for memory keeping sake.....🤣🤣

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 22:12 | Report Abuse

For many people always thinking fast money....slow is actually fast....everybody understand positive compounding effects but it's just not sexy or macho enough.....I have seen many people pouring money into something that they always thinking annual compounding 15% consecutively for 20 years.....Even icap in 2023 annual report using 15% compounding rate.....subtly giving people impression he can do it at that rate

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 22:14 | Report Abuse

Aspiration and reality are 2 different things......that is why we need to be humble in the market

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 22:48 | Report Abuse

Just a correction ya...the balance at year 2022 498 k with annual addition 36 k for next 10 years compounded at 6%...by year 2032 will be 1.39 million.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 22:49 | Report Abuse

I forgot about the 36 k annual addition in my calculation that arrived at 894 k

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-03 22:51 | Report Abuse

If someone earning 10 k per month, 22% mandatory contribution will be 2.2 k + 0.8 k personal top up will get you to this 3k target.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-04 00:22 | Report Abuse

Okie....I am going to use iCap share price at the end of each of their FY since it's an investor return(not fund manager return -- NAV) and we are going to use the same 36 k per year for 19 years

Year ** Price ** Addition ** Qty share bought
2005 ** 1.08 ** 36,000 ** 33,333
2006 ** 1.46 ** 36,000 ** 24,658
2007 ** 2.62 ** 36,000 ** 13,740
2008 ** 1.39 ** 36,000 ** 25,899
2009 ** 1.74 ** 36,000 ** 20, 690
2010 ** 2.09 ** 36,000 ** 17,225
2011 ** 2.05 ** 36,000 ** 17,561
2012 ** 2.37 ** 36,000 ** 15,190
2013 ** 2.47 ** 36,000 ** 14,575
2014 ** 2.4 ** 36,000 ** 15,000
2015 ** 2.37 ** 36,000 ** 15,190
2016 ** 2.55 ** 36,000 ** 14,118
2017 ** 2.92 ** 36,000 ** 12,329
2018 ** 2.54 ** 36,000 ** 14,173
2019 ** 2.47 ** 36,000 ** 14,575
2020 ** 2.19 ** 36,000 ** 16,438
2021 ** 2.52 ** 36,000 ** 14,286
2022 ** 2.25 ** 36,000 ** 16,000
2023/May ** 2.32 * 36,000 * 15,517

Total accumulated quantity 330,497
Value at 4/10/2023 $ 2.64 = 872,511
Assume it's zero discount at NAV of 3.53 will be valued at 1.1 million

It's still kalah to EPF....for 19 years....EPF will work out to be 1.28 million with the same 36 k per year addition.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-04 00:32 | Report Abuse

I'm modelling real life how people will put their money to work rather than calculating cumulative return since inception and you put your money only 1 time at the point of inception or IPO....at the end of the day, it's money in our bank that counts not those nice return numbers published in annual report. 😂😂