Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-04 00:36 | Report Abuse

Dollar averaging cost busted!

Posted by Patient Investor > 2023-10-04 11:54 | Report Abuse

@Fast, their cash hoarding since 2013/14 drag down the performance. too bad
You also need to add back the dividend distributed.

Posted by Patient Investor > 2023-10-04 11:55 | Report Abuse

Will COL pare down their holdings to 20% before AGM? Or they can find a local proxy to hold those holdings.

Regulation 6 of SICDA FOR provides that shares held by
foreigners which fall within the Prescribed Limit shall be
entitled to all rights and obligations attached to the shares
as determined by the Board. Regulation 6 of SICDA FOR also
provides that shares held by foreigners which exceed the
Prescribed Limit shall be subject to a determination by the
Company as to whether such shareholder shall be entitled to
all rights and obligations.
Accordingly, foreign depositors who hold voting shares within
the Prescribed Limit of 20% as against the total quantity of
shares listed on the official list of the Stock Exchange shall
be entitled to vote at any general meeting save for restricted
shares standing to the credit of the securities account of
foreign depositors as being in suspense, pursuant to SICDA
FOR read together with the Prescribed Limit of 20% in the
Company’s Constitution, the Securities Commission Guidelines
for Public Offerings of Securities of Closed-end Funds, the
Bursa Main Market Listing Requirements and Chapter 24A of
the Rules of Bursa Malaysia Depository concerning foreign
ownership of shares in the Company. Determination(s) on
rights and obligations attached to restricted shares may be
made by the Board of Directors of the Company upon the
happening of any of the events listed out in regulation 6(2) of
SICDA FOR, such as and not limited to (i) prior to the calling
of any general meeting; (ii) prior to the undertaking of any
corporate action by the issuer; and (iii) the conversion of
shares

Posted by fairplay > 2023-10-04 12:39 | Report Abuse

CapDynamics in road show expressed it is taking care of shareholders via previous occasions (situation demands) in declaring dividends. This is all Talk only, to Declare Dibidends, with view to meet Ageing shareholders need.
There seem to be NO dividend declared and payable this year 2023 AGM.
All empty Talk only, Directors Not looking after interests of shareholders. Will FUND MANAGER take responsibily for Financial Losses on investment in Boustead. Collect Fees and performance fees. Where is Fund Manager to Pay back iCapital or Clawback LOSSES

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-04 12:56 | Report Abuse

@Patient Investor....it will be immaterially affecting the views of EPF vs iCap with same amount of money invested regularly but with different risk: EPF guarantee no loss of money with minimum 2.5% dividend and it's written in the law and average of 6% in past 10 years. While iCap is making a lot promises of Low Risk High Return. How to translate this into numbers? I wish we can get an answer.

BTW, Dividend received in 2013 will be 17,372 and 2022 will be 62,996 = 80,836 based on above accumulated quantity....added back to my calculation the gap is still quite far.

How one want to allocate their hard earned money is very personal. I am only giving my views for other think about. Nobody is certain of anything except death and taxes. Who knows one day TTB is really able to delivery CAGR 15% in the next 20 years? Who knows? Between hope and a bit more certain, how will we allocate our capital? That's up to the readers in this forum to decide for themselves.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-04 15:29 | Report Abuse

@Patient Investor The rules on SICDA are clear enough, but where in iCap's constitution is the prescribed limit of 20%? I have read through it 3 times and still can't find it. Please enlighten.

Posted by i3gambler > 2023-10-04 16:27 | Report Abuse

To compare ICAP and EPF, I make a spreadsheet.
1) Invest 36000 on 1st Jan every year from 2006 to 2023, total 18 years.
2) The Dividend received from ICAP would be reinvested on the next 1st Jan.

As of today,
1) For ICAP, if I sell at NAV of 3.57, the CAGR=6.85%.
2) For ICAP, if I sell at Market Price of 2.59, the CAGR=3.67%
3) For EPF, the CAGR=5.88%.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-04 17:00 | Report Abuse

@i3gambler : Good to do your own calculation and arrive your own conclusions....✌✌

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-04 17:02 | Report Abuse

If you dream to be a millionaire -- you will know why path is more realistic. 😁

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-04 17:13 | Report Abuse

I'm gonna extract some information from iCap 2023 Annual Report (page 11)

Compounding RM 5,000 at 15% p.a.
Year ** Portfolio value RM
1 ** 5,000
10 ** 20,228
15 ** 40,685
20 ** 81,833
25 ** 164,595
30 ** 331,059
35 ** 665,878
40 ** 1,339,318
45 ** 2,693,846
50 ** 5,418,287

Nothing wrong with the math....only thing it is injecting the idea to hold iCap for 50 years to get 5.4 million by just buying about 2,000 shares today. I understand the context perfectly of his point of do not interrupt compounding process unnecessarily. But we all know the higher the hope, the higher the disappointment when someone can't deliver that high rate without a single year of money losing for 50 years.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-04 17:14 | Report Abuse

I find that Warren Buffett is really much more down to earth.

In his 1962 letter, Buffett shared the story of Queen Isabella of Spain sponsoring Christopher Columbus’s voyage in 1492 to find a “new world” at a cost of around US$ 30,000. Buffett called it a low-compound investment, as the same money invested at 4% compounded annually would have amounted to something like US$ 2 trillion by 1962 (or 470 years later).

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-04 17:15 | Report Abuse

The difference under promise over deliver....and live long enough.....compounding it for sure for a long time.....

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-04 17:22 | Report Abuse

This will what happened if it is compounded at 4% with the same 5,000

Compounding RM 5,000 at 4% p.a.
Year ** Portfolio value RM
1 ** 5,000
10 ** 7,401
15 ** 9,005
20 ** 10,956
25 ** 13,329
30 ** 16,217
35 ** 19,730
40 ** 24,005
45 ** 29,206
50 ** 35,533

If you are 24 years old now, waking up at 74 years young, remembering you supposed to have 5 million only to found out that you get 35,533.... how will you feel ? 😅

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-04 17:37 | Report Abuse

Assuming you still want 1 million in your lifetime - it's really boils down to 2 things - it's either the base or the return rate....

Still at 4% ..... what is the base ?

Year ** Portfolio value RM

1 ** 150,000
10 ** 222,037
15 ** 270,142
20 ** 328,668
25 ** 399,875
30 ** 486,510
35 ** 591,913
40 ** 720,153
45 ** 876,176
50 ** 1,066,003

This is what I feel it is more human, each of us need to reach a big enough base to overcome something called escape velocity... How to find 1st 150,000 ? 😂😂

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-04 17:42 | Report Abuse

With the magic of compounding, it is more how long you hold than how high is the rate of returns. A dollar invested in the year 1 AD compounding at a modest 5% annually would amount to $1.87E+42, i.e. 1.87 followed by 42 0's in 1995. How big is that? A million has 6 0's, a billion 9 0"s, a trillion 12 0's. Don't believe? Enter this into your spread sheet (1+0.05)^1995. Why is this so difficult to make a fortune? because in a geometrical progression, percentage losses far outweigh percentage gains. If you lose 50% of your portfolio in a crash, you need to gain 100% to recover to the previous level, and if you lose say 90% as in the 1929 Wall Street crash, you need to make 9 times that to recover. For some, this might be a few life times, given the long term average returns of the US markets is in the low double digits.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-04 17:49 | Report Abuse

And like they say, making the first million is always the hardest, the critical base to make meaningful compounding of returns, and it is far easier to lose a million in the stock market than to make a million.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-04 17:59 | Report Abuse

Give me a high five......I feel like wanna to change my name to SlowMoney000 ady....🤑🤑

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-04 19:33 | Report Abuse

@FastMoney Yes, DumbMoney is already taken. Smart Money is still available though.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-04 20:39 | Report Abuse

Haha.....SmartMoney?😱😱 Hat too big....head too small.....almost empty inside too....worried get suffocated. Leave that to TTB if he would like to join us in this forum....he will know we all are nice guys after a few rounds of sparing. 🍻

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 07:53 | Report Abuse

Re SICDA posted by Patient Investor & dumbMoney - looks like at hindsight iCap made a mistake for not defining the rule clearly, they may need to do amendment. Amendment will be a messy thing and will require very high percentage approval from shareholders....I am not sure of the %....2/3 majority or 75%....???

Out of my competency on company law, found a reference for comment

https://dnh.com.my/the-importance-of-a-company-constitution-in-malaysia/

If it's really true 75%, just a few % from minority shareholders + COL 23% already can easily blocking it. 😉

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 07:56 | Report Abuse

Or COL can do an outright purchase another few more % to kill the whole thing....👻👻

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-05 12:59 | Report Abuse

@fairplay Even though payment of a 'final dividend' requires approval by shareholders at a general meeting, there is nothing to stop the board from declaring an 'interim dividend' at any time at their fancy, like just before the AGM, as this don't require approval. Bursa only recommends that interim dividends if any be announced together with results, but this is not mandatory. So don't rule out the dividend yet. On the same note, stock markets are supposed to discount what is known about a company in arriving at its share price. So according to the announced unique and innovative dividend policy, if the price discount is say 24%, the dividend, if declared, will be at 4%, the rate quoted in the announcements by the company. So if such a dividend is then declared at the expected time (this is where the board can play games with the timing, haha), you think the share price will move up by 4% just because of the announcement? If not (because conventional wisdom says prices only move on new information, not what is already discounted), then when price goes ex dividend, will it adjust downwards by the amount of the dividend, as again what conventional wisdom says it should? Then where is the price change and discount narrowing effect? Maybe the foreign experts imparted some unconventional wisdom to justify their fees?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-05 13:07 | Report Abuse

Even though conventional wisdom has not been defined, it is generally accepted that such concepts as modern portfolio theory, M&M Theorem on corporate finance, efficient markets, index funds, FF 3 Factor and 5 Factor models form the core of what I was taught, because that's what came out from the School's research findings.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-05 13:15 | Report Abuse

@FastMoney Are you saying the company is talking about a hypothetical foreign shareholding limit that may be applied instead of an existing one already in the books? If the latter, then it can be misleading and confusing to investors reading the announcements, thinking that finally they found a legal loophole to stop COL after failing to get the injunction with their novel legal interpretation of what defines a shareholder beyond the 4 corners of the company's constitutions.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 13:31 | Report Abuse

Yup - it's well possible that they may just use what they can find from SICDA and it is not written in their constitutions. But SICDA is passing back the bucks to the company by saying to enforce it that will depend on what is written in the constitutions. I am pretty sure they will guard that constitutions now very tightly and nobody has seen it. It's okay to let them hide in the dark...if they don't have it and nobody entertains them......it is just all barks.....just playing poker and calling the bluffs. I will wait it out and see when the tides recede, is the guy naked. 🤣🤣

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-05 13:36 | Report Abuse

@Fast Money Did you read that I have already read the constitution 3 times. Posting misleading announcements on Bursa is a rule infringement, can get the BOD a yellow card or a red card, depending on the severity and or culpability. And if a SC license holder, then the SC may need to get involved, as different rules and laws then apply.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 13:42 | Report Abuse

Sorry...I missed out that you have read their constitutions 3 times, I thought you read Patient Investor post 3 times🙄. And you now said you can't find that....then that guy is naked la....no need to wait for the tides to recede. 🤗🤗

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 13:47 | Report Abuse

I will hantam kuat kuat and if I am COL, I will keep buying till it cross 25% then no way they can amend their constitutions to their advantage(if by law 75% shareholders approval is required for constitutions amendment).

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-05 13:47 | Report Abuse

@FastMoney Another thing, don't play poker with someone who has a much bigger bankroll than you, because he can call your bluffs more times than you can call his, and he getting it right just one time can bankrupt you. I used to count cards in BlackJack at Genting in my younger days, but when they changed the rules and I no longer had a slight odd, I stopped, because a short run of bad luck can be a disaster for me, and I can never bankrupt the casino.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 13:49 | Report Abuse

At the point of IPO,I don't think they have thought out this scenario of either foreign investor or local investor can be a major controlling investor. Now that they have learn this lesson, they could have retreat and employing lawyers to beef up their positions.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-05 13:53 | Report Abuse

@FastMoney If you are familiar with company laws, the company has went to SC 1 round and the courts 3 rounds, all involving lawyers. If there is such a restriction in the constitution already, don't you think any competent lawyers would have spotted it and used it instead of stretching the definition of a single shareholder which got thrown out?

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 13:54 | Report Abuse

dumbMoney - between COL and iCap who is the house?

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 13:56 | Report Abuse

I know that the house will win even 1% edge will make a lot of money.....51% on the house 49% on players.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 13:59 | Report Abuse

I got it now --- iCap make such announcements were just a psychological warfare confusing people like me....😫😫Mum somebody bullies me.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 14:02 | Report Abuse

Also definition of a single shareholder.....they may be pushing a wet string trying to proof multiple shareholders is actually the same shareholder......conspiracy theory argument? Aiya.....I wish to tail along since I got no many things to do.....more exciting that watch dramas.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-05 14:10 | Report Abuse

@FastMoney, The SC did think of such a thing as a single shareholder controlling the fund, that's why there is this 20% single shareholder limit in both the guidelines and the company's constitution. What they didn't count on is a fund manager controlling different funds, which each fund counting as a single shareholder. So only the 33% parties in concert rule applies, not the single shareholder limit. COL's lawyer just need to ask one simple question, show me where COL's name appears in the shareholders' register? None. Same thing with this foreign shareholding limit, where's this clause in the constitution? Let's see if the company will take COL to court again on this issue? More fees for the lawyers.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 14:14 | Report Abuse

Anyway - I have learnt a hard lesson too that litigations only make lawyers rich. Hostile take over is expensive. Settle disagreements by shaking hands quickly. Let's focus on business. Grow the NAV.....if today NAV is $50 ...all will be the winners regardless of big or small shareholders.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 14:19 | Report Abuse

Thanks for the explanations on the definition because I was confused that whenever there were changes of shares, the put that in the bucket of indirect interest. Now all the dots got connected with your second part of the explanations. So just ignore all the announcement. It's just distractions.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-05 14:20 | Report Abuse

@FastMoney "between COL and iCap who is the house?" Whoever is on the right side of the law is the house. This is civil case, so only on balance of probabilities, 51% beats 49%. If I am a betting man, I will bet on COL, strictly on probabilities, not on ethics.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-05 14:27 | Report Abuse

@FastMoney Just remember that if the company takes COL to court, it is on behalf of the shareholders. If you are a shareholder, are you aggrieved by COL's buying above the 20%? Are they on the same page with you as a shareholder or have their own agenda that is harming you so much so that you must stop them?

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 14:42 | Report Abuse

Agreed - good enough for me on the balance of probabilities and not beyond reasonable doubt, unlike in the criminal case. And also, burden of proof on civil case is on the plaintiff(iCAP), unlike criminal case the burden of proof is on the defendant. I bet on COL. Just to make things clear, I am no lawyers but just happened to read a few novels by John Grisham..😂😂

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 14:54 | Report Abuse

I will not feel aggrieved that someone buy above 20%....perhaps most of the shareholders only listen to 1 side of the story and also putting the seed of fear COL will liquidate the fund. I have not seen COL sold a single share during such a poor showing of NAV. We even have people started to work out the performance themselves in the last few days in this forum. They convinced what is cause the discount....it means losing faith in the fund manager....they vote with their wallet despite of knowing they are selling at a huge discounts.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-05 14:58 | Report Abuse

@FastMoney Good thing you are not a lawyer. In criminal case, burden proof is also on the prosecution, which is then much harder beyond a reasonable doubt, i.e. 90%. That's why so easy for the accused to walk free if prosecution simply throw a case. Reading John Grisham will not make you a lawyer wannabe. At least get hold of the Companies Act, Capital Markets & Services Act, Bursa listing rules etc. These are free for downloads online. I am not a lawyer either, but at least have worked with expensive senior partners of big law firms in my previous line of work, so learned some basics from them through association.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 15:12 | Report Abuse

Now back to two important questions : what COL knows that the rest of us don't know? What potential COL saw when they took such a big position?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-05 15:12 | Report Abuse

COL has publicly stated that their MO is to buy discounted CEF's, so it is only logical that the greater the discount, the more they will be buying, but then it has been suggested that their buying caused the discount. How logical is that? Did they point a gun at all the sellers and forced them to sell at such low prices? Then this myth got busted when COL stopped buying because of the injunction and the discount kept widening until it went below 40%. After the court case and COL resumed buying, it went back up. And now it looks like the company is trying to stop them buying again.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 15:14 | Report Abuse

dumbMoney - thank you for correcting me.....it's on prosecutor.... the accused is already kesian enough. Paiseh....

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 15:17 | Report Abuse

buying something cheap may remains cheap....value trap. There is something deeper than than I believe....

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-10-05 15:19 | Report Abuse

@FastMoney COL believes that the discount is fixable and suggested ways to fix them. And you have read the company's response. It is like the irresistible force meeting the immovable object, haha.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 15:27 | Report Abuse

For me, TTB is not bad or at least he understands it is so much easier to lose money than make money. From money management point of view is quite conservative. He is someone who dares to make a big swing when something is selling at ridiculous price. A few of his winners are also nicely picked on growth story. He held on to winners as long as he can but his strength also become his weakness, he held on to losses(from price point of view) way too long such Parkson. He wins more than his losses.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2023-10-05 15:39 | Report Abuse

There is also something about his concentration strategy, good point of this strategy, when he gets 1 home run, it will pay for his dogs in the portfolio. Only people that really know what they are doing this can deliver long term results. I saw people rant about his Boustead pick....one of his dogs but he has Petronas Dagangan, F & N, Padini, SEM etc....enough to offset those dogs.