kcchongnz blog
Hot Stock Jaks Resources and Margin Finance: kcchongnz
The trade conflict between the US and China has been escalating in the last few months. This also affected the equity investment in the perceived riskier emerging markets including Malaysia which rely more on global trades. Most of shares in Bursa suffered big losses due to heavy selling by foreigners for fear of a full-blown trade war which could adversely impacting on their exports.
The KLSE index retreated from a high of 1900 points three months ago to 1663 points three weeks ago, below the psychological level of 1700 points before recovering and closed at 1769 last Friday on 27th July 2018. Foreign funds continued selling relentlessly in Bursa. Since the last 11 weeks, starting from just before the elections, well over Rm10 billions have been pulled out from the Malaysian equity markets by foreign investors. This outflow of funds was a little scary.
Adding to this downbeat sentiment in global markets, demand and margin weakness were evident for nearly all Malaysian companies, especially those exporting companies. Few escaped unscathed, as underscored by disappointing earnings results, due mostly to lower demand, rising material, fuel and labour costs, and stronger Ringgit. The uncertainties of a new government and cancellation of some mega projects added salt to the wound, although these could be good in the long-term for the equity market.
The share prices of many companies, good ones included suffered double-digit loss since the last few months, including some of my own.
Jaks Resources’ share price is no exception. It has dropped by 40% from its peak of RM1.83 to close at RM1.10 on 28th July 2018, for a loss of 40% in about 6 months.
Having the price of the shares one holds diminishes by 40% in a few months is not that abnormal. Those who had gone through the periods of the Second Board Saga in 1996, the Asian Financial crisis 1998, the Dotcom Bubble in 2001, the US Subprime Housing Crisis in 2007 would understand what I mean. That is the nature of investing in the stock market.
But the problem is what if one engages in margin finance?
The Peril of Margin Finance
Just not long ago, I read three books in Chinese written by a real super investor in Malaysia who has built substantial wealth in the stock market. As I remember in his books, he keeps on discouraging the use of margin finance for the public, but following the “right path” in investing, in particular value investing, to build long-term wealth in investing in part of a business, i.e. investing in good stocks of public listed companies. He had sent the right and proper message to the public, despite he had also sometimes made exaggerated return of investment by using leverage. This is a great advice from him.
Those who have been reading my articles would have noticed I have been a little “loso” 囉嗦, or repetitive in this topic of margin finance. I always like to present an alternative view, for newbies and youngsters. I have written a number of articles on this as published in i3investors. For those who are interested to know more about my opinion on margin finance and its peril to your financial well-being, just goggle with key words “kcchongnz margin finance, leverage”. I feel that with the continuous touting of the investment bankers and individuals in the public forums enticing individuals to borrow and punt in the stock market, I would not have done my social service in this respect.
Recently, I have written two articles on margin finance with examples as below,
- Margin Finance, Ever-Sendai: A real time case study
https://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/133708.jsp
- Musing on the hottest stock
https://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/150199.jsp
In the first article above, Ever-Sendai dropped from RM1.37 to 80 sen, for a loss of 42% in just three months a year ago. Punters with RM1m own capital and used 50% margin finance would have lost 86.8% (with other fee and borrowing costs), in just three months. RM1m invested in Sendai would have left with RM132k. The share price of Sendai continued to slide to 70 sen after that, before reversing and closing at 90 sen on 27th July 2018. Assuming the investment banks were kind enough not to force sell the shares, which may cause total loss, punters were still in the red of RM723k, or a loss of 72.3% now.
In the second article above, Heng Yuan was the hottest stock then. The share price of HY rose steadily from RM2.00 in less than one year ago to its intraday peak of more than RM19 at the beginning of January 2018, for a gain of 850% in a year! Those who bought HY with margin then would have made a fortune. However, those who punt it at its peak with margin finance would suffer heavily.
Heng Yuan’s share price plunged from its peak of RM19 to RM12, for a loss of 37%, and plunged again from RM15 to RM8.20, for a loss of 45%, both within a few days. Those who doubled up their bets when the share price dropped faced a big surprise. It went down below RM6.00 a couple of months later and closed at RM6.80, a further drop of 17% from the day the article was written.
Imagine if one was using margin finance to try to get rich quick with this hot stock and seemingly a good investment then. That is the peril of leverage, margin finance, and the use of other people’s money, OPM.
Now, the hottest stock, and also with a margin financing theme falls on Jaks, as you can see the number of articles and comments in i3investor now. As usual, I would also like to join in the fun.
Jaks and margin finance
Figure 1 below shows the share price movement of Jaks Resources from a year ago. As mentioned above, the share price of Jaks lost 40% from its peak of RM1.83 to close at RM1.10 on 28th July 2018, in about 6 months. What has been the detrimental effect of using say 50% margin finance to hope to make it big investing in Jaks?
Figure 1: Share price movement of Jaks
Assuming again one uses RM1m of his own money and borrows another RM1m from bank. The leverage ratio would be 2 to 1.
Table 1 in the Appendix shows the returns of your investment with different scenarios of total returns with a leverage ratio of 2 to 1. The interest rate is assumed to be 4.85%. The setup facility fee is assumed to be 1% and the two-way transaction cost of 0.8%. Note margin account incurs much higher transaction cost than normal account.
Referring to Table 1, if one was unlucky and had bought Jaks at its peak of RM1.83 six months ago, one would have lost a whopping 40% now! The person who uses RM1m his own capital, and another RM1.m OPM would have lost RM834k, or 83.4% in just 6 months. coincidentally, the chart above shows heavy volume at that time. It was no big surprise as most punters are followers of the Greater Fool’s Theory and many would have bought the share at higher price, enticed by the numerous promotions in the public forums, only when the share price has gone up. Being human, they are greedy and wish to mimic the success of super investor of obtaining exaggerated return from OPM.
What if the share price of Jaks drop just another 15%, or 16 sen to 94 sen as shown in column 7 of Table 1 in the Appendix? The RM1m capital would be completely wiped out and become zero!
What if the share price of Jaks drop to 70 sen? Not possible? In this case, not only the punter lost all his RM1.0m, he still has to find more money to pay the bank RM269k as shown in column 8 of Table 1 in the Apendix! It is no joke.
Even if one was lucky enough to not buy Jaks at its peak price of RM1.83, but at the time when its share price stayed steady at about RM1.45 for two months from April to June 2018, one will still lose a whopping 52% with that kind of margin finance. It is really scary.
Imagine, how could one get back to his feet after losing 83.4%, or even 52% in 6 months? How long would it take to recoup those if the market returns to normal with a long-term CAGR of 10%?
The above examples are simplistic, as things like margin calls will come in and loss would be realized earlier, but it does show the peril or horror of using OPM.
Some may argue that it is perfect time to invest in Jaks now as the share price has “unreasonably” beaten down by 40% in such a short time as shown in one of the recent articles in i3investor here,
https://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/icon8888/167135.jsp
The article above mentioned about the good value of its Vietnam power plant. He may be right as this is what normally value investors do; buy low and sell high.
How about using margin investing in Jaks now since it is “cheap”, say use own capital of RM1m, and margin finance of another RM1m?
Imagine if Jaks share price goes back to RM1.83, say within six months, the person above would have made 66.4%, or 128% with 50% margin as shown in Table 1 in the Appendix. How wonderful!
However, personally I beg to differ.
I have offered my personal opinion of the power plant before here,
https://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/123266.jsp
Basically, it is a matter of risks and return, the long gestation period, the cash flows, etc. I doubt Jaks, and also its shareholders will receive a single sen in the next few years, even after the completion of the power plant. Instead, there will be more cash calls to come, for more equity in the joint venture, for fixing its problems in property development and construction. Forget about “profit” during construction stage. It is just from left pocket to right pocket, and back to the left. Whereas when I invest in a company, I wish to receive dividends, and not continuously forking out money, which I am not sure if I would be rewarded in the future.
Investing in a company is not only a segment of its business. It is investing in the whole company; its various businesses, construction, property development, power plant in Vietnam, and their durability, and more importantly, the capability and credibility of its management and its staff etc.
Think about it. Without no experience in power plant development, how did Jaks got this project from a foreign country? What it has to do such that the project will be smoothly carried out? Without any experience in power plant EPC contracts, how is it going to carry out the project?
Of course we know it is the Chinese company doing the whole project, and yes, it will be completed. But Jaks is just an Alibaba. With Chinese calling all the shots, and all the uncertainties in the future, will Jaks get what he may be deserved of? I don't know, but just posed these questions.
I could very well be wrong in my assessment about Jaks and its share price movement in the short-term, and often in the first few days after I wrote my article. Please do not follow me.
Whatever it is, I will still won’t use any margin finance, in any of my investment, more so for a company like Jaks. Yes, I always admit I am a kiasu investor.
Final words
Jaks is another good example to illustrate the peril of using OPM. I have used a number of examples in i3investor.
It’s great to borrow a cow and selling the milk, but not until the cow runs off. Now you’re stuck. You owe a cow and don’t have one to return, and no milk. The risk of leverage is investing that debt and losing what you borrowed, which can wipe out any profits, or even your entire capital, and maybe more.
I would also like to reiterate that I have nothing against people making so much money using OPM. It is the prerogative of individuals. But I always like to spread some right message and offer some good advice and maxim to the public.
““Borrowing money is a way of trying to get rich a little faster, but there are plenty of good ways to get rich slowly,” Buffett said. “And – you can – you can have a lot of fun while you’re getting rich as well. My partner, Charlie, says that there’s only three ways that a smart person can go broke. He says, ‘liquor, ladies, and leverage.” Warren Buffett
This article is more about the peril of margin finance than the company, Jaks.
Happy investing.
KC
ckc14invest@gmail.com
Appendix
Table 1: Returns with leverage, Jaks
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| Chart | Stock Name | Last | Change | Volume |
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Discussions
5 people like this. Showing 50 of 206 comments
Posted by stockraider > Jul 30, 2018 06:03 PM | Report Abuse
SAMETHING WARREN BUFFET ADVICE DON USE DERIVATIVE AND MARGIN FOR INVESTOR BUT ACTUALLY WARREN USES ALOT OF DERIVATIVE EVEN HE CALL IT DANGEROUS AS WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION LOH....!!
BUT CAKAP & BIKIN TAK SERUPA LOH....!!
MAYBE HE PLAN TO ADVICE GENERALLY...USE THE SAFEST & LEAST CONTROVERSIAL PATH LOH.....!!
IN REAL LIFE...COLD EYE USES MARGIN ALOT TOO....!!
That is why they should be the role models. They may use margin in investing (Warren Buffett doesn't). They may have made a lot of money doing it because they are good(How many people in the public are as good, or even close to them in investing?). But in their public speeches and writing, they express very strongly against the public using it. Because they know very few people can handle it, and most of them bankrupt doing it.
That is humility, social responsibility and behavior of true super investor.
2018-07-30 18:10
RAIDER FIND ALL THOSE CONVENTIONAL TRADITIONAL THINKING OUT OF LINE....IF THEY ARE WILLING TO BORROW ALOT OF MONIES TO BUY HOUSES UPTO 90% AND CARS 90%, IS IT NOT USING SHARE MARGIN GEARING 65% VERY MUCH SAFER LEH ???
IMAGINE U BUY A HOUSE U MAY BORROW UPTO RM 600K AND A CAR A DEPRECIATING ASSETS MAYBE RM 100K, WHY NOT FOR A START WITH RM 100K SHARE MARGIN FACILITY LEH ???
2018-07-30 18:19
Posted by stockraider > Jul 30, 2018 06:19 PM | Report Abuse
RAIDER FIND ALL THOSE CONVENTIONAL TRADITIONAL THINKING OUT OF LINE....IF THEY ARE WILLING TO BORROW ALOT OF MONIES TO BUY HOUSES UPTO 90% AND CARS 90%, IS IT NOT USING SHARE MARGIN GEARING 65% VERY MUCH SAFER LEH ???
IMAGINE U BUY A HOUSE U MAY BORROW UPTO RM 600K AND A CAR A DEPRECIATING ASSETS MAYBE RM 100K, WHY NOT FOR A START WITH RM 100K SHARE MARGIN FACILITY LEH ???
Raider, are you comparing apple with apple?
Borrow to buy a house or a car because young people starting work or a family need to, and using share margin to punt in the stock market which is full of uncertainties?
As a financial advisor, I used to advice young people to buy a house and a car they need as soon as they can afford. Of course they need to borrow.
2018-07-30 18:23
WRONG LOH....!!
U SHOULD ENCOURAGE THEM TO START WITH A SHARE MARGIN 1ST SAY ABOUT RM 70K MARGIN WITH RM 30K EQUITY...BCOS IT IS EASIER TO START AND LESS CAPITAL INVOLVE LOH...!!
THIS PROVIDE THEM, WITH A SOLID INVESTMENT TRAINING GROUND...DO IT B4 THEY GET MARRIED LOH.....!!
WHEN THEIR INCOME MORE STABLE GO AND BUY A HOUSE LOH....!!
BUY NEW CAR THE LAST LOH...USELESS COMMITMENT...MAKE DO WITH PUBLIC TRANSPORT, IF CANNOT MOTOR CYCLE AND IF NO CHOICE BUY A 10 TO 15 YRS OLD RELIABLE JAP CAR LOH....!!
NO NEW CAR ..VERY WASTEFUL LOH...!!
LIKE THAT ALL THEIR RESOURCES IS PUT TO GOOD USE LOH...!!
Posted by kcchongnz > Jul 30, 2018 06:23 PM | Report Abuse
Posted by stockraider > Jul 30, 2018 06:19 PM | Report Abuse
RAIDER FIND ALL THOSE CONVENTIONAL TRADITIONAL THINKING OUT OF LINE....IF THEY ARE WILLING TO BORROW ALOT OF MONIES TO BUY HOUSES UPTO 90% AND CARS 90%, IS IT NOT USING SHARE MARGIN GEARING 65% VERY MUCH SAFER LEH ???
IMAGINE U BUY A HOUSE U MAY BORROW UPTO RM 600K AND A CAR A DEPRECIATING ASSETS MAYBE RM 100K, WHY NOT FOR A START WITH RM 100K SHARE MARGIN FACILITY LEH ???
Raider, are you comparing apple with apple?
Borrow to buy a house or a car because young people starting work or a family need to, and using share margin to punt in the stock market which is full of uncertainties?
As a financial advisor, I used to advice young people to buy a house and a car they need as soon as they can afford. Of course they need to borrow.
2018-07-30 18:35
Raider, you may be good as a investment "advisor" for investment banks which have been promoting margin finance, such that they will make a lot of money from punters in the stock market.
Certainly you are not qualified as a professional financial planner/advisor who could take care of the interest of those young people.
2018-07-30 18:51
Lai lai raider start to shout d. Hahaha
What personal attack? What have i said about your that is untrue or you did not do?
Own up to your own failures and bullshit.
Warren Buffet did not do derivatives, or at least in the sense people think he does. When he bought over General RE, it had a derivative position and he had them liquidate it . However it took like 4 years to fully liquidate.
His operating units sometimes used derivatives for operational purposes. Very different from gambling with derivatives.
You are right margin and leverage is not evil, but it motivates people to use it in a very stupid way. Where even smart and good people die because of it.
Its like sugar. Little bit of the right kind, can d. Not good for health but won't kill you. If someone is like 25% margin, nothing wrong, equity got 100k, margin another 25k, can tahan. Wont get margin call.
Anything above 75% margin, and you must be a special kind of stupid, or a hedge fund manager playing with other people money.
2018-07-30 18:54
Raider, when recession happen, as long as you can meet your monthly payments, you can keep your house and car. The bank wont sohai suddenly ask you pay for the entire loan one go or they sell your house or car.
Very different from margin.
If bank offer me personal loan at 5% effective interest rate, with only a monthly repayment, i wont mind taking it.
2018-07-30 18:58
WOW...HOW COULD U SAY THAT....I ASK THEM NOT TO BUY NEW CAR....THAT IS ALREADY ALOT OF SAVINGS LOH....!!
YES I ASK THEM TO OPEN MARGIN....SO THAT THEY HAVE A MEANINGFUL INVESTMENT CAPITAL MAH.....!!
IMAGINE THEY HAVE ABOUT 30K....THIS IS TINY....FOR INVESTMENT LOH...!!
YES MARGIN....DOES NOT MEAN THEY NEED TO SAILANG ON 1 STOCK LIKE KYY ADVICE LOH...!!
Posted by kcchongnz > Jul 30, 2018 06:51 PM | Report Abuse
Raider, you may be good as a investment "advisor" for investment banks which have been promoting margin finance, such that they will make a lot of money from punters in the stock market.
Certainly you are not qualified as a professional financial planner/advisor who could take care of the interest of those young people.
2018-07-30 18:59
Posted by stockraider > Jul 30, 2018 06:59 PM | Report Abuse
WOW...HOW COULD U SAY THAT....I ASK THEM NOT TO BUY NEW CAR....THAT IS ALREADY ALOT OF SAVINGS LOH....!!
Me: This is a good advice. But they need to buy a car to go to work. Working is the most reliable way of earning money. Not use margin to punt on stock market.
YES I ASK THEM TO OPEN MARGIN....SO THAT THEY HAVE A MEANINGFUL INVESTMENT CAPITAL MAH.....!!
Me: You need a car to go to work, a second hand small car. You need a permanent shelter over your head if you have a family. Borrow money to buy a house also is a forced saving, a sure forced saving. House price often go up in value over the long-term. At least it won't like stock which could tank by 50% often, whether good or bad stocks.
IMAGINE THEY HAVE ABOUT 30K....THIS IS TINY....FOR INVESTMENT LOH...!!
YES MARGIN....DOES NOT MEAN THEY NEED TO SAILANG ON 1 STOCK LIKE KYY ADVICE LOH...!!
Me: Which is a priority: buying a second hand which you need to go to work, a permanent shelter over your head when you start a family which you can call it your own and at the same time forced saving, or use margin to buy stocks to hope to get rich quick in the short term, which nobody can be sure about that?
2018-07-30 19:35
Posted by stockraider > Jul 30, 2018 07:57 PM | Report Abuse
ALWAYS REMEMBER INVESTMENT CAN BE YOUR 2ND SOURCE OF PERMANENT INCOME ON TOP OF YOUR PERMANENT EMPLOYMENT....U NEED TO LEARN THE ROBES QUICK & U NEED TO KNOW WHETHER U R SUITABLE AS A POTENTIAL GOOD INVESTOR LOH...!!
BETTER PUT UR COMMITMENT ON THIS LIFE LONG LUCRATIVE INVESTMENT BUSINESS
WHEN U R STILL YOUNG LOH...!!
THE EARLIER U START THE BETTER UR CHANCES OF SUCCESS LOH....!!
Me: Of course and fully agree with you. That is also my advice as a professional financial planner. But the difference of your advice and mine is, you propagate the use of margin finance, for the young people which you know very well they are not good in investing, and that 90% of them lose money in the stock market, and that they will likely lose money, and exaggerated losses with margin finance.
WHY GO TO TRADITIONAL WAY LIKE BUY CAR & BUY HOUSE 1ST....WITH LOADS OF FINANCIAL COMMITMENT WHEN U R YOUNG.
Me: If you have a job, and your office is way out of public transport system, isn't that a priority, over getting a margin finance to use in stock purchase, which is no way certain of making money?
RECESSION HAPPEN MAY MEAN HILANG KERJA...SUPPOSE U GOT RM 600K HOUSING LOAN AND RM 100K CAR LOAN....WITH MONTHLY SERVICING COMMITMENT HOW ??
Me: Your house is still worth a lot of money, unlike in a stock market crisis, one loses all his money! Which is worse?
What is the chance one loses his job and can't even find another, compared to the stock market tanking?
Note I am not talking about not investing, but not using margin finance.
IF U HAVE A MARGIN...MAY COME HANDY TOO DURING RECESSION & LOST OF JOBS...CAN DRAW SOME CASH OUT...TO TIE OVER YOUR MONTHLY SERVICE COMMITMENT...WHILE STILL HUNTING FOR NEW JOBS LOH...!!
Me: Your "margin" appears to be used as "in the event of recession, losing job". Not for buying stock meh? Isn't that defeating its purpose?
No need to pay commitment fee, roll-over fee, interest etc ah?
2018-07-30 20:34
KC don't irony , I don't think so you are a smart investor ,you just only hide in the hole ninja turtle, you like to using celebrity quote to show how you smart in stock market ,sao pei lar you , 听你在吹牛逼吗o0o , Kyy have donate better than you lar Turtle.
2018-07-30 21:23
Raider,
I can give you an argument, but I can't give you an understanding.
2018-07-31 02:13
>>>31-Jul-2018 Insider MADAM TAN KIT PHENG (a substantial shareholder) disposed 1,000,000 shares on 30-Jul-2018.
31-Jul-2018 Insider MADAM TAN KIT PHENG (a substantial shareholder) disposed 693,000 shares on 27-Jul-2018.
31-Jul-2018 Insider MR KOON YEW YIN (a substantial shareholder) disposed 6,662,900 shares on 30-Jul-2018.
31-Jul-2018 Insider MR KOON YEW YIN (a substantial shareholder) disposed 2,962,500 shares on 27-Jul-2018.
31-Jul-2018 Insider MR KOON YEW YIN (a substantial shareholder) disposed 1,599,900 shares on 26-Jul-2018.<<<
More disposal of Jaks shares by KYY.
10 million + shares sold. Why?
2018-07-31 20:20
Margin is essentially taking on more risk.
This higher risk method in your investment strategy, allows you to borrow at a certain interest rate to invest with the aim of achieving high capital gains, should the operations turn out right for you.
On the other hand, you may sustain greater losses should the operations turn out the opposite to your expectations.
[Note: You can take on leverage if you find a situation in your favour, like in an arbitrage operation, when you are 100% certain you will come out the winner.]
2018-08-01 16:40
But arbitrage operations are rare.
For most people, this advice is sound:
"If you are smart in your investing, you do not need to leverage or use margin. If you are not so smart, you have an added reason not to go that way."
:-)
2018-08-01 16:41
osted by stockraider > Aug 1, 2018 06:56 PM | Report Abuse X
Yes margin slightly higher risk...but it train u to have discipline & risk management that u may not or seldom get, as a cash investor mah...!!
If u going to lose monies as a margin investor...then, the likely scenario u r still going to lose monies even u r cash investor
Lets put it this way...if u r not smart enough or u r not make for share investment, u r going to lose monies whether u use margin or cash investor....thus it is better for u & for the sake of ur family to avoid share market totally loh...!!
If you are smart in your investing, you do not need to leverage or use margin. If you are not so smart, you have an added reason not to go that way."
WRONG LOH.!...OF COURSE IF U R GOOD & SMART ENOUGH....U R GOING TO MAKE MONIES ANYWAY...THEN WHY NOT U USE MARGIN TO MAKE EVEN MUCH MORE LEH ??
Posted by 3iii > Aug 1, 2018 04:40 PM | Report Abuse
Margin is essentially taking on more risk.
This higher risk method in your investment strategy, allows you to borrow at a certain interest rate to invest with the aim of achieving high capital gains, should the operations turn out right for you.
On the other hand, you may sustain greater losses should the operations turn out the opposite to your expectations.
[Note: You can take on leverage if you find a situation in your favour, like in an arbitrage operation, when you are 100% certain you will come out the winner.]
3iii
3418 posts
Posted by 3iii > Aug 1, 2018 04:41 PM | Report Abuse
But arbitrage operations are rare.
For most people, this advice is sound:
"If you are smart in your investing, you do not need to leverage or use margin. If you are not so smart, you have an added reason not to go that way."
2018-08-01 18:59
Raider can talk a lot of cock, expert in talking cock leh. Don't forget this Raider aka General of Holland turn a few million profit winning position into a few thousand. All the while telling all his machai to sailang HY at high price and die-die hold until TP rm32.
Now General Holland say in his own words..... "RAIDER LOSE BCOS FOLLOW & ASSIST THEM TOO MUCH MAH...!!
Blame his machai for distracting him woh. Not because he is a really lousy investor/trader, not because he use margin but because he got "Distracted by his machai".hahaha.
How low can a person go?
2018-08-07 14:26
How many people here turn a few million winning position into a few thousand on a single counter?
Somemore General Holland hantam people who decide to sell/take profit on HY early by calling them stupid, pondan and other names. After that, General Holland kena raided by HY and got his ass kicked, and now he is telling all of you what to do? hahaha
2018-08-07 14:31
""RAIDER LOSE BCOS FOLLOW & ASSIST THEM TOO MUCH MAH...!!
This is the worse. Instead of looking at your own mistake, he blame his machai.
2018-08-07 14:33
USE UR BRAIN & THINK LAH...!!
LIKE THAT ALSO DON KNOW MEH ??
IF U CAN SWIM VERY FAST....BUT U NEED TO HELP A YOUNG BOY...DON KNOW HOW TO SWIM....U CAN STILL SWIM VERY FAST MEH ??
WHY ALL THE CHINESE PEOPLE SAYS NEP POLICY SHOULD GO AH ??
BCOS THEY THINK....AFTER 30 YRS OF IMPLEMENTATIONS....THEY HINDRANCE THE OVERALL PROGRESS OF THE NATION MAH...!!
U CAN HELP BUT THEY MUST WORK HARD & GROW UP MAH...NO TOO MUCH OR FOREVER SPOON FEEDING LOH....!!
THATS WHY RAIDER SAYS KYY OPEN HIS BIG MOUTH TOO MUCH LOH...!!
YES SOCIAL SERVICE BUT THEY MUST BE ALWAYS A LIMIT OR SPACE FOR THEM TO GROW UP MAH....!!
Posted by gotrep > Aug 7, 2018 02:33 PM | Report Abuse
""RAIDER LOSE BCOS FOLLOW & ASSIST THEM TOO MUCH MAH...!!
This is the worse. Instead of looking at your own mistake, he blame his machai.
2018-08-07 14:41
USE MY BRAIN? JUST LISTEN TO YOU I WILL BE RICH ALREADY WHAT, RIGHT? HAHAHA
LIKE I SAID....YOU CAN TALK A LOT OF COCK, Boy GENERAL of HOLLAND.
I AM WAITING FOR YOUR NEXT BUY CALL, General Holland. HOPEFULLY BETTER THAN HY TP RM32 HAHAHA
2018-08-07 15:03
DON'T FORGET TO BUY YOUR 'GOLD MEDAL' AT PETALING STREET, GENERAL HOLLAND. HAHA
2018-08-07 15:04
WHEN YOU BUY INTO HY, PLEASE LET US KNOW SO WE CAN SEE YOUR ASS GET KICKED AGAIN, OK? :)
2018-08-07 15:06
No more tell u when raider buy & sell loh....!!
Don want to make same mistake like KYY ...talk too much loh....!!
Secretly does it mah.....!!
Posted by gotrep > Aug 7, 2018 03:06 PM | Report Abuse
WHEN YOU BUY INTO HY, PLEASE LET US KNOW SO WE CAN SEE YOUR ASS GET KICKED AGAIN, OK? :)
2018-08-07 15:12
It would help a bit also when you refrain from hantam people just because they have a different opinion than yours. nobody likes to be called names and made fool of (irrespective of whether you are at football match or not). thank you.
2018-08-07 15:30
Hentam is for them to analyse, discuss, debate & learn loh....!!
If Lee Chong Wei, go china play badminton & got hentam by the home crowd, he losses bcos of poor match & crowd temperament, then how ??
He is not a complete player yet loh....!!
samething mah...u need to be a complete investor loh...!!
Posted by gotrep > Aug 7, 2018 03:30 PM | Report Abuse
It would help a bit also when you refrain from hantam people just because they have a different opinion than yours. nobody likes to be called names and made fool of (irrespective of whether you are at football match or not). thank you.
2018-08-07 15:37
True, true.
Then I hope you won't be shy and will share with us when you buy HY again. So not only can we enjoy seeing your ass get kicked (again) but we can all learn together. Sounds fair?
Eagerly awaiting your next buy call, Mr expert General Holland. Let's learn together.
2018-08-07 23:10
haha, dun talk to stockraider sifu like that. I follow my sifu call buy from rm5 to rm19 hrc last year wor…. if no raider sifu ask me to keep, I would have walked away with mickey mouse profit only.
now im diff d, I got a good beginner start, and I know who helped me
2018-08-07 23:15
Aiyah, everyone is here to learn what. So general Holland raider should not be so shy loh. Share so everyone can learn loh, like he say.
Dont forget, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Why didn't you follow again when he say die die hold until rm32 until berak tak ada handbrake? Its not what you do right that kills you in the stock market, it's what you do wrong loh.
2018-08-08 10:28
OTB also give buy call on HY, a lot of people make. Then he also lost 2nd round but less than a few million like your sifu. And unlike your sifu, OTB never say he lose because he assist his machai too much loh.
2018-08-08 10:36
As raider says MF is just a tool loh....!!
The arguement whether MF is good or bad, is just too side of coin arguement mah, it can be good or can be bad loh...!!
For raider for it to be good, u must be much more competent in terms of investment skill than the average general public, thus MF should be able to give u amplify return loh...!!
People says share margin may cause u amplify losses thus becareful loh.!
RAIDER AGREE LOH...!! THATS WHY RAIDER STRESS ON INVESTMENT SKILL & RISK MANAGEMENT B4 U USE MF LOH...!!
Then why raider recommend to newbies, knowingly they are not so competent leh ??
Yes raider recommend to newbies bcos they are most suitable bcos they are young, not much capital, just starting to learn loh...!!
a)Young...means u got time to build & acquire investment knowledge.
b) Not much capital...means if u lose everything...it is not that much to lose mah..!!
Think this way, ur parent investing alot of monies for u to acquire an oversea general good U degree that easily cost rm 500k to rm 1000k, can u see immediate good return? No loh...but u see it is essential to give u a long term head start in your future good career job advancement loh...!!
Likewise if u invest rm 20k to rm 30k to get MF rm 60k to Rm 100k to get a good headstart in your investment training which is good for your long wealth accumulation...in fact if u r successful, u can build ur lifelong 2nd income source mah...!!
People says u already good why take more risk on MF loh...!!
U NEED TO UNDERSTAND ALREADY GOOD AND ALREADY WEALTHY DIFFERENT LOH..!!
U R GOOD, BUT U R NOT RICH LOH....U NEED TO PUT UR GOOD EFFORT SUCCESSFULLY TO ACQUIRE WEALTH MAH...!!
WHY U NEED TO BORROW ??
PUT IT THIS WAY LOH....IF U R. YOUR GOOD UR PROBABILITY OF SUCCESS IS 70% AND FAILURE 30% !!
U HAVE RM 30K AND HAVE THE CHANCE TO BORROW ANOTHER RM 90K....DO U START WITH RM 30K CAPITAL OR DO U START RM 120K(CAPITAL PLUS BORROWING}
THE CORRECT OR PROGRESSIVE MATHS TEACHER WILL TELL U RM 120K LOH..!
THATS WHY MOST BUSINESSMEN with Business Sense CHOSE OPTION 1.
THE NOT SO BUSINESS MINDED TEACHER WILL SAY Option 2 with RM 30K OR BETTER DON INVEST AT ALL.. PUT All INTO FD LOH...!!
Actually the correct maths answer is Rm 120k ( capital & borrowing loh)
Why young newbies leh ??
This young newbies start with clean sheet mah, so it is easier & better to acquire good investment knowledge b4 they got corrupted loh....!!
Don ask a 55 yrs to do margin mah, it is difficult to train an old dog new tricks mah....!!
2018-08-11 09:50
Posted by stockraider > Aug 11, 2018 09:50 AM | Report Abuse
U HAVE RM 30K AND HAVE THE CHANCE TO BORROW ANOTHER RM 90K....DO U START WITH RM 30K CAPITAL OR DO U START RM 120K(CAPITAL PLUS BORROWING}
THE CORRECT OR PROGRESSIVE MATHS TEACHER WILL TELL U RM 120K LOH..!
THATS WHY MOST BUSINESSMEN with Business Sense CHOSE OPTION 1.
THE NOT SO BUSINESS MINDED TEACHER WILL SAY Option 2 with RM 30K OR BETTER DON INVEST AT ALL.. PUT All INTO FD LOH...!!
Actually the correct maths answer is Rm 120k ( capital & borrowing loh)
Why young newbies leh ??
This young newbies start with clean sheet mah, so it is easier & better to acquire good investment knowledge b4 they got corrupted loh....!!
Don ask a 55 yrs to do margin mah, it is difficult to train an old dog new tricks mah....!!
Me: I have some great teachers in my high schools, including many maths teachers. I give them great respect as besides teaching me on specific subjects, such as maths, they also teach me many great values in life.
What is the investment knowledge are you referring to in your statement, "it is easier & better to acquire good investment knowledge b4 they got corrupted loh....!!"
Is it some good investment skill like value investing, or using MF to punt the stock market to "hope" to get-rich quick, but risk bankrupt fast too?
If it is the earlier, good. But if you are referring to the later, they are already "corrupted" by a rouge trader.
2018-08-11 11:48
Raider comment,
I don know what is your maths teacher teaching u, but i m sure the correct probability or answer is option 1 that is to maximise your expected value...!!
most likely your maths teacher would not teach u option 2...bcos i m sure fear & risk management chicken technique is not in syllabus that time loh..!!
kc comment,
Me: I have some great teachers in my high schools, including many maths teachers. I give them great respect as besides teaching me on specific subjects, such as maths, they also teach me many great values in life.
What is the investment knowledge are you referring to in your statement, "it is easier & better to acquire good investment knowledge b4 they got corrupted loh....!!"
Is it some good investment skill like value investing, or using MF to punt the stock market to "hope" to get-rich quick, but risk bankrupt fast too?
If it is the earlier, good. But if you are referring to the later, they are already "corrupted" by a rouge trader.
PROBLEM SOLVING POSER LOH...!!
WHY U NEED TO BORROW ??
PUT IT THIS WAY LOH....IF U R. YOUR GOOD UR PROBABILITY OF SUCCESS IS 70% AND FAILURE 30% !!
U HAVE RM 30K AND HAVE THE CHANCE TO BORROW ANOTHER RM 90K....DO U START WITH RM 30K CAPITAL OR DO U START RM 120K(CAPITAL PLUS BORROWING}
THE CORRECT OR PROGRESSIVE MATHS TEACHER WILL TELL U RM 120K LOH..!
THATS WHY MOST BUSINESSMEN with Business Sense CHOSE OPTION 1.
THE NOT SO BUSINESS MINDED TEACHER WILL SAY Option 2 with RM 30K OR BETTER DON INVEST AT ALL.. PUT All INTO FD LOH...!!
Actually the correct maths answer is Rm 120k ( capital & borrowing loh)
Why young newbies leh ??
This young newbies start with clean sheet mah, so it is easier & better to acquire good investment knowledge b4 they got corrupted loh....!!
Don ask a 55 yrs to do margin mah, it is difficult to train an old dog new tricks
2018-08-11 11:57
Raider comment,
I don know what is your maths teacher teaching u, but i m sure the correct probability or answer is option 1 that is to maximise your expected value...!!
most likely your maths teacher would not teach u option 2...bcos i m sure fear & risk management chicken technique is not in syllabus that time loh..!!
I said my math teacher besides teaching me maths, also teach me many great values in life in general.
So your option 1. own capital 30k and borrow 90k and sailang in the market for a young person sure make big money, or in your own words "maximize" return?
First please clarify are you talking about doing busines, or using MF for stocks? And please understand the huge difference in borrowing to do business and MF before answering.
What are your evidence?
Vast body of research has shown that 70% of business fail, and that is not just hearsay.
Someone in the industry also confirmed the success rate of MF is only one percent in the comments here. Although this figure may be exaggerated, which may not be, one can see the high probability of failure rate.
Why are you so adamant about propagating the use of MF to young? Are you out of your mind? Or are you just so naive?
2018-08-11 12:16
kc please debate based my full comments, by taking part here & there, u twisted my kind intention which have youngster interest in mind loh..!!
Posted by stockraider > Aug 11, 2018 09:41 AM | Report Abuse X
As raider says MF is just a tool loh....!!
The arguement whether MF is good or bad, is just too side of coin arguement mah, it can be good or can be bad loh...!!
For raider for it to be good, u must be much more competent in terms of investment skill than the average general public, thus MF should be able to give u amplify return loh...!!
People says share margin may cause u amplify losses thus becareful loh.!
RAIDER AGREE LOH...!! THATS WHY RAIDER STRESS ON INVESTMENT SKILL & RISK MANAGEMENT B4 U USE MF LOH...!!
Then why raider recommend to newbies, knowingly they are not so competent leh ??
Yes raider recommend to newbies bcos they are most suitable bcos they are young, not much capital, just starting to learn loh...!!
a)Young...means u got time to build & acquire investment knowledge.
b) Not much capital...means if u lose everything...it is not that much to lose mah..!!
Think this way, ur parent investing alot of monies for u to acquire an oversea general good U degree that easily cost rm 500k to rm 1000k, can u see immediate good return? No loh...but u see it is essential to give u a long term head start in your future good career job advancement loh...!!
Likewise if u invest rm 20k to rm 30k to get MF rm 60k to Rm 100k to get a good headstart in your investment training which is good for your long wealth accumulation...in fact if u r successful, u can build ur lifelong 2nd income source mah...!!
People says u already good why take more risk on MF loh...!!
U NEED TO UNDERSTAND ALREADY GOOD AND ALREADY WEALTHY DIFFERENT LOH..!!
U R GOOD, BUT U R NOT RICH LOH....U NEED TO PUT UR GOOD EFFORT SUCCESSFULLY TO ACQUIRE WEALTH MAH...!!
WHY U NEED TO BORROW ??
PUT IT THIS WAY LOH....IF U R. YOUR GOOD UR PROBABILITY OF SUCCESS IS 70% AND FAILURE 30% !!
U HAVE RM 30K AND HAVE THE CHANCE TO BORROW ANOTHER RM 90K....DO U START WITH RM 30K CAPITAL OR DO U START RM 120K(CAPITAL PLUS BORROWING}
THE CORRECT OR PROGRESSIVE MATHS TEACHER WILL TELL U RM 120K LOH..!
THATS WHY MOST BUSINESSMEN with Business Sense CHOSE OPTION 1.
THE NOT SO BUSINESS MINDED TEACHER WILL SAY Option 2 with RM 30K OR BETTER DON INVEST AT ALL.. PUT All INTO FD LOH...!!
Actually the correct maths answer is Rm 120k ( capital & borrowing loh)
Why young newbies leh ??
This young newbies start with clean sheet mah, so it is easier & better to acquire good investment knowledge b4 they got corrupted loh....!!
Don ask a 55 yrs to do margin mah, it is difficult to train an old dog new tricks mah....!!
2018-08-11 13:02
Raider, your copy-and-paste comments were hell of long winded and messy. Nobody will care to read.
My truncation does not make a difference with the gist of it.
2018-08-11 13:04
KC, you have written a fine article. You explained, discussed and dissected your arguments clearly. It is up to your readers to see how they can benefit from your sharing.
On the other hand, raider is rather disruptive in his postings. Yes, he wishes everyone to know that it is alright to use margin financing. Of course, in the right circumstances, some will use margin financing and benefit from this hugely. It is only wise to also point out the downside of margin financing too.
I believe all the readers in this forum are intelligent enough to form their own opinion based on their reading.
KC has stated his points. Others too. Too much going round and round the same arguments do not add more value to this discussion. The person who posted the most or the loudest does not necessary win the hearts of others. But perhaps ego and pride should be modulated to make the discussions here more pleasant.
Just like in our parliament, profanities only reflect poorly on those who use it. Nothing more to add.
2018-08-13 20:30
http://www.investlah.com/forum/index.php/topic,15914.msg355528.html#msg355528
It is pointless. Unless the person you are engaging is honest, all discussion is just fruitless.
Have already been through these many times already with my dishonest friend.
2018-08-13 23:10
raider should just stop and think.
Why is he writing like so?
He refuses to face the truth.
Please do not be in denial like Najib.
We have been interacting for years.
You are not honest in your posts.
You should at least be truthful or even be honorable in your writing.
Just look back at all the posts you have thrown at me.
It was one stock after another.
What happened to all these stocks you mentioned?
And yes, you threw GSB today.
Be truthful.
2018-08-13 23:23
Online Ļaughing Ģor
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Re: GSB Group Berhad ( 7077 ) - The Ultimate Hidden Gem
« Reply #12275 on: March 09, 2017, 04:23:26 AM »
Quote
Why is GSB better than Dutch Lady
1. GSB share price is below 10 sen. Dlady is above RM50. Therefore GSB wins
2. GSB is actively promoted in Investlah and many forums for many years. Dlady is seldom talked about. Therefore GSB wins
3. GSB is much much easy to double its share price from 10 sens to 20 sens. Dlady grow from RM50 to RM100, dream on. Therefore GSB wins.
4. GSB sells houses costing more than RM500,000 each. Dlady sells susu costing RM1.80 per packet. So GSB wins.
5. GSB is led by Andrea Gan. Dlady is led by.....dunno who. So GSB wins
6. GSB has SIMA group as backing. Dlady had Nestle as competitor. So GSB wins.
7. GSB is the infant stage of Mashing. Dlady is at mature old age. So GSB wins.
RAIDER REMARKS;
"JUST BE REMINDED WHAT 3iii, DID BELOW. SOUND FAMILIAR ??
THERE ARE THOUSANDS SIMILAIR REMARK DID ON JOHNMASTER LOH...!!
IF IT IS NOT DISHONESTY, CONMAN, LACK INTEGRITY ETC LOH...!!"
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Re: GSB Group Berhad ( 7077 ) - The Ultimate Hidden Gem
« Reply #12266 on: March 08, 2017, 11:56:20 AM »
Quote
Just to remind me how a conman's mind worked overtime. :)
Quote from: johnmaster on March 19, 2011, 07:59:59 AM
2018-08-13 23:37
ANOTHER CLASSIC CASE OF 3iii CITING JOHNMASTER DISHONESTY LOH...!!
THIS 3iii HAS NO BALLS LOH...!!
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Re: GSB Group Berhad ( 7077 ) - The Ultimate Hidden Gem
« Reply #12223 on: January 29, 2015, 10:02:29 AM »
Quote
JM was a devious story teller.
He spun the story so well, that fools followed.
2018-08-13 23:42
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This book is the result of the author's many years of experience and observation throughout his 26 years in the stockbroking industry. It was written for general public to learn to invest based on facts and not on fantasies or hearsay....
stockraider
SAMETHING WARREN BUFFET ADVICE DON USE DERIVATIVE AND MARGIN FOR INVESTOR BUT ACTUALLY WARREN USES ALOT OF DERIVATIVE EVEN HE CALL IT DANGEROUS AS WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION LOH....!!
BUT CAKAP & BIKIN TAK SERUPA LOH....!!
MAYBE HE PLAN TO ADVICE GENERALLY...USE THE SAFEST & LEAST CONTROVERSIAL PATH LOH.....!!
IN REAL LIFE...COLD EYE USES MARGIN ALOT TOO....!!
Posted by kcchongnz > Jul 30, 2018 05:52 PM | Report Abuse
Posted by stockraider > Jul 30, 2018 05:49 PM | Report Abuse
BTW COLD EYE ALSO USES ALOT OF MARGIN LINE TOO LOH....!!
THAT MEANS HE ALSO SUPPORT THE USE OF MARGIN LIKE RAIDER LOH....!!
This appears in my article here.
"The Peril of Margin Finance
Just not long ago, I read three books in Chinese written by a real super investor in Malaysia who has built substantial wealth in the stock market. As I remember in his books, he keeps on discouraging the use of margin finance for the public, but following the “right path” in investing, in particular value investing, to build long-term wealth in investing in part of a business, i.e. investing in good stocks of public listed companies. He had sent the right and proper message to the public, despite he had also sometimes made exaggerated return of investment by using leverage. This is a great advice from him."
Don't take my words only. Go and read his books, if you understand Chinese. Do not simply put words into his mouth.
2018-07-30 18:03