Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 19:24 | Report Abuse

I hope readers understand where I am coming from. One cannot calculate without understanding where the numbers fit in. Otherwise you will get an inflated non essential numbers which in return will inflate the other essentials.

Posted by kcchongnz > 2013-08-10 19:25 | Report Abuse

The financial statements of CBIP which i believe follows the IFR reporting standard shows that the "Profit from operations" is 88.9m and its "Profit after taxation from continuing operations" is 91.8m.

So do you agree that the "net income" is higher than its "operating income"? What is the purpose of your statements below which are full of contempt?

Posted by Trillion > Aug 9, 2013 12:05 PM | Report Abuse
Hahaha Grandma, you will learn these guys are shiok sendiri team. Information provided no guarantee of accuracy. .......lol they also cannot take question one ......leave critism.......

Posted by Trillion > Aug 9, 2013 11:22 PM | Report Abuse
Someone alredi pointed out the FA mistake.....OTB, read lah......hahahahaha. Enjoy yourself OTB making everyone here especially Inwest88 and Tonylim.

Hahaha
What is Operating income/profit? Net income is after all taxes and OP is before....so how lah?

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 19:26 | Report Abuse

Since I am challenge on my accounting, I would like to ask the JV and associate number fit in before or after EBIT?

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 19:30 | Report Abuse

I rest my case......if Fat Cat was bullied, I am no Fat Cat....hahahahaha

Posted by kcchongnz > 2013-08-10 19:31 | Report Abuse

Who challenged who first? See how you laugh at my numbers first. What was your purpose in laughing at me? Try to ridicule me?

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 19:34 | Report Abuse

It's exactly what I wrote there.......accuracy number one and second you guys can't take critism .....so what if you are wrong. I think it's better to be accurate.........

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 19:38 | Report Abuse

Btw my only real critism is only at Tonylim and not you guys ok!

Posted by kcchongnz > 2013-08-10 19:41 | Report Abuse

I love constructive criticisms, right from the bottom of my heart. Correct my mistakes if I am wrong. This way I learn too. I am very happy about it. Tell you what, I ain't accountant but I do know how to read a bit of financial statement. But try to ridicule me, with your sarcastic and cynical remarks? Especially I am not wrong. Hey I am just trying to share my thoughts. Free of charge.

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 19:49 | Report Abuse

Honestly I would check again! Because the Efficiency (asset and account receivable calculation against Revenue will be affected) calculation will all be out. I ask the earlier question because if added b4 EBIT, chances are it is in Revenue or category of non OP income. If in Revenue, it would be fine but not in Financial income category. If then it happens, you efficiency measurement versus Performance will totally be out.

Posted by kcchongnz > 2013-08-10 20:00 | Report Abuse

The financial statements of CBIP clearly shows that share of results from associates and jv are after ebit, or "profit from operations", aren't they?

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 20:05 | Report Abuse

Then it's treated as financial income.....which will be added to EBIT, that's how you get it (net profit) higher. What is financial expense then? I trust it must be relatively low to FI otherwise the net wont be higher than OP

Posted by kcchongnz > 2013-08-10 20:15 | Report Abuse

The associates and jv accounts are not consolidated in the financial statement of CBIP. Hence the share of results from associates and jv is just profit or loss, no revenue nor expense "consolidated" in CBIP's financial statements.

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 20:23 | Report Abuse

If its after EBIT, read this.....it's an old not update finance income category but should give u an idea...where it fall in.

http://www.astrazeneca-annualreports.com/2007/financial_statements/notes_to_the_financial_accounts_group/note3.asp

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 20:25 | Report Abuse

I belief it should be under this sub category in the link....forex should be here too


Fair value gains on debt, interest rate swaps and investments

Posted by kcchongnz > 2013-08-10 20:29 | Report Abuse

I really don't know what are you trying to show. Just ask me to read a link. No head or tail.

I thought our argument is just related to my post on CBIP, that its net income is higher than its profit from operations. Are you still laughing at this or what?

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 20:29 | Report Abuse

Now if that is correct, it's not seen in the top line (revenue) hence net profit against revenue % is higher. This is not a consistent earning. Next q result you may get top line improve but net income affected because like forex and JV and etc in the category is not something most business built on......hope this clears the explanation....

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 20:35 | Report Abuse

Yes my argument still stands as per my explanation above because just like forex, this is not consistent. Unless they built a business on JV growth. If such is true, in accounting may not fall in same category.

Note that my link is a category that you add on to EBIT. Ie financial income category. U have to know this as a lot of companies have unintentionally caught their investors on this. You can check TM also reported higher income due to forex but this cannot be repeated consistently.......

Posted by kcchongnz > 2013-08-10 20:36 | Report Abuse

That is why I separate margins into gross, ebit and net margin respectively.

Btw, profit from associates and jv can be consistent, or not consistent, just like the income from its ordinary business. forex, gain of sale of PPE etc and other one-off items which I normally ignore.

Posted by kcchongnz > 2013-08-10 20:41 | Report Abuse

If you bother to check CBIP's account, you would have found that I have ignored those one-off items such as "Profit from discontinued operations", "Gain on disposal of subsidiaries", "Gain/(Loss) on fair value measurement" and "Exchange differences on". so what else do you have?

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 20:48 | Report Abuse

They are not real and can mislead on net income......unless they built it into one of their business pillars. ...no further comment from me.... Chao!

P/s: Pls don't give mr domino too much ok.....lol even if free it must come with some fair exchanges.......and don't misunderstand my critism as disrespect.....I criticize But I respect the info provided here (just as I criticize some of Fed policies but does not mean I have a better solution or disrespect Bernake........) I love them all but the macroeconomics just just does not help our market......


Take care....

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 20:58 | Report Abuse

Aiya I want to sign off but you pose me questions.......like I have said earlier and you should understand being a FA guy.....calculations are divided into 4 main category.....performance, efficiency, strength and financial. I will not include forecast! What u have shared is the financial accounting right? I am questioning the efficiency calculation fr the accounting which will in turn affect also the some part of performance calculation.....

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 21:01 | Report Abuse

If you have one category in FA u want to dwell in focussing on CBIP accounts subject matter, I will be happy to debate......free of charge too......

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 21:08 | Report Abuse

Ok 5 minutes up....I presume no further questions or debate.....chao....!

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 21:54 | Report Abuse

Hahahaha you got ........

Here Nasi Lemak is actually in the category of financial income......I have attach the link for areas of definition in financial income and expense earlier

Thank you Tan KW.....now you see the amt of difference 25% vs 42%. Assuming next quarter they cannot get a JV or investment income or forex or etc in that category (btw they may still have fnancial expense in liability interest ) the investor who may not know better may see a lower Net income fr expectation. The rest is as per what I wrote earlier

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 21:56 | Report Abuse

So now if you put Forex into you business growth, you may be come a Investment house or exchange house.......as a pillar in your business. Then you can project a growth base on it....otherwise it will sit a financial income.....

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 22:04 | Report Abuse

One correction,

After EBIT is Financial Income

IBIE = EBIT + Financial Income

Earning B4 income Tax = IBIE - Financial Expense

Net Income comes after that......

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 22:11 | Report Abuse

Hahahaha again, read I have also said what is stated its fact....did I say marketing oneself is wrong?

So if i say someone is racist base on facts but may oppose ur belief, am I wrong? Common be real.....we live in a information world where everything is right at finger tip. You can also say I criticize u but truly did I.....all I say is he is marketing himself.......u guys gotto grow up and be more matured.....

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 22:13 | Report Abuse

Include Nasi Lemak but before Deducting Financial expense and Tax....

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 22:15 | Report Abuse

That's why I said the financial expense must be low in relative to the Financial income to record a high Net Income.

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 22:17 | Report Abuse

Read carefully mate.....I have openly said my opinion on Mr Domino aka Tonylim. Only....hahahaha

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 22:19 | Report Abuse

That cannot be understood two ways right........

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 22:22 | Report Abuse

Aiya...u guys suppose to be expert

Blog: OTB, Fat Cat, kcchong portfolio return by kcchongnz
Aug 10, 2013 10:04 PM | Report Abuse

One correction,

After EBIT is Financial Income

IBIE = EBIT + Financial Income

Earning B4 income Tax = IBIE - Financial Expense

Net Income comes after that......

---------------

Ok I spell all out.....

After Earning B4 income Tax will be the tax and after that is Net Income lor......

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 22:24 | Report Abuse

That's my opinion if you have not read earlier of what I wrote of Tonylim.....that fine....nothing to do with you......

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 22:25 | Report Abuse

So what's you story here ? Blog writer? Analyst?

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 22:39 | Report Abuse

I am just an avid reader here......I do appreciate Kcchong and OTB rational argument, that's why I bother giving my opinion.....

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-10 22:44 | Report Abuse

If all the argument that has been said here is that a top expert can only be as accurate as 60% , we better accept more critism to be more accurate......

Posted by houseofordos > 2013-08-11 00:14 | Report Abuse

Trillion, you post some valid points, however, there are other ratios that can confirm the value of the stock that such as EV/EBIT and ROIC which do not depend on net profit. I would double check ratios such as ROE and P/E that uses net profit against ROIC and EV/EBIT which uses EBIT before deciding on the value of the stock.

A sidenote on CBIPY :- An entity is defined as an associate when the investor controls between 20 -50% of the issued share capital.In the case of CBIP, its associates with less that 50% control are :-
Kumpulan Kris Jati Sdn. Bhd.
Bahtera Bahagia Sdn. Bhd.
They are mainly involved in the plantation and milling divisions.

Posted by kcchongnz > 2013-08-11 05:37 | Report Abuse

Tan KW, your lemang business makes a good example. that is how income statement is presented. As an equity holder, your net profit is 42k, and net profit margin is 42%. You have rightly omitted the one-time off foreign exchange gain of 1k from the net profit as it is after "Net profit". Think of it as an investor, isn't that 20k profit from the nasi lemak a regular return for you? The foreign exchange gain is not of course. Why did Trillion kept on saying forex is included in the "net income"?

The higher net profit than operating profit doesn't mean the nasi lemak business in Singapore is of higher profit margin. It depend on how much you have invested in this nasi lemak business. The higher profit margin is because the net profit includes your nasi lemak business which in accounting term, is not your "ordinary" business, or core business. This profit from nasi lemak is just the profit before tax of the nasi lemak business and there is no turnover included in the top line "revenue" in the lemang business. But this is how "net profit" is computed in analysis of accounting statement.

Talking about efficiencies like DSO, Inventories turnover, Days payable turnover, etc, we always refer to the "ordinary" business, or the core business of the company and the figures you can get are only those of the ordinary business. This is because you don't have the non-core figures as they are not "consolidated" in that company's account. So why Trillion is talking about the following:

[Posted by Trillion > Aug 10, 2013 07:49 PM | Report Abuse
Honestly I would check again! Because the Efficiency (asset and account receivable calculation against Revenue will be affected) calculation will all be out. I ask the earlier question because if added b4 EBIT, chances are it is in Revenue or category of non OP income. If in Revenue, it would be fine but not in Financial income category. If then it happens, you efficiency measurement versus Performance will totally be out.]

Posted by kcchongnz > 2013-08-11 05:48 | Report Abuse

Posted by Trillion > Aug 10, 2013 10:22 PM | Report Abuse
Aiya...u guys suppose to be expert
Blog: OTB, Fat Cat, kcchong portfolio return by kcchongnz
Aug 10, 2013 10:04 PM | Report Abuse
One correction,
After EBIT is Financial Income
IBIE = EBIT + Financial Income
Earning B4 income Tax = IBIE - Financial Expense
Net Income comes after that......

---------------
Ok I spell all out.....
After Earning B4 income Tax will be the tax and after that is Net Income lor......


First of all, I never claim I am an expert. Can you find anywhere I did so? I always say I am not an accountant. But I still can engage you to talk about accounting.

After EBIT, there are many other stuff other than your "financial income". Anyway, I thought it is "Finance income" which is interest from FD etc, not "financial income" as stated by you. Other stuff includes forex gain, gain/loss from associates, jv etc which their accounts have not been consolidated, gain/loss from sale of PPE, sale of land etc.

Anyway, you are more constructive now in your comments. Welcome.

Posted by shirley1 > 2013-08-11 09:20 | Report Abuse

am not accountant huh, next time want accountant look for trillion type, but if want to list ur company dont bring him along, bring kcchong type.. haha. its not critizise huh.. its complement :)

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-11 09:51 | Report Abuse

Kcchong, is this the lowest you want to take a pot shot ......a term finance vs financial income

-------------
After EBIT, there are many other stuff other than your "financial income". Anyway, I thought it is "Finance income" which is interest from FD etc, not "financial income" as stated by you. Other stuff includes forex gain, gain/loss from associates, jv etc which their accounts have not been consolidated, gain/loss from sale of PPE, sale of land etc.
----------

It is the same thing.....one to describe (ie finance income) and the other is is a accounting term in PnL. Anymore pot shot? The rest is already in the link I put there



As for Houseofordos, yes there are many other calculations that u have pointed out that can be used. However remember that the more measurement pointed in same direction means more accuracy. Example a lot of ppl use P/E ratio as one of a means to view desirability or a form of virtual repayment period (hinging at 10 ie ref to 10 years) but I suspect this hinge at PE 10 benchmark will move a lower or higher scale benchmark depending on the global movement and may settle at a new benchmark. Reason I say that is because it may become a norm repayment period in the real world to extend if prices of things do not come down while salary is the same.....
Ok Ok coming back to earlier statement of PE (assuming all stays the same) the example I gave as I also use Price/ Cashflow to balance my PE observation to support my own justification when buying or selling. This is what I mean.

If u look at OTB, he also says he uses Diff method to calculate to observe consistency I believe. Same here.

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-11 09:56 | Report Abuse

Wah Shirley also like to hit below belt here......Kakakaka

Posted by shirley1 > 2013-08-11 10:06 | Report Abuse

haha... there are other players dont base on the above, they base on momentum, chart, candles and etc.. kikiki... i got hold ler.. haha

Posted by shirley1 > 2013-08-11 10:09 | Report Abuse

juz puzzle huh, if my nasi lemak's business got few shoplots, will it be reflected in my lembang's business balance sheet ?

Posted by kcchongnz > 2013-08-11 10:12 | Report Abuse

Posted by Trillion > Aug 11, 2013 09:51 AM | Report Abuse
Kcchong, is this the lowest you want to take a pot shot ......a term finance vs financial income

-------------
After EBIT, there are many other stuff other than your "financial income". Anyway, I thought it is "Finance income" which is interest from FD etc, not "financial income" as stated by you. Other stuff includes forex gain, gain/loss from associates, jv etc which their accounts have not been consolidated, gain/loss from sale of PPE, sale of land etc.
----------

It is the same thing.....one to describe (ie finance income) and the other is is a accounting term in PnL. Anymore pot shot? The rest is already in the link I put there

LOWEST POT SHOT? AS I HAVE SAID I AIN'T ACCOUNTANT BUT I STILL THINK THAT IT IS FINANCE INCOME OR FINANCE EXPENSE, NOT FINANCIAL. EVEN THE LINK YOU SHOWED IS FINANCE INCOME, NOT FINANCIAL INCOME. SHOW ME ONE FINANCIAL STATEMENT USING FINANCIAL INCOME TO DESCRIBE INTEREST INCOME.

As for Houseofordos, yes there are many other calculations that u have pointed out that can be used. However remember that the more measurement pointed in same direction means more accuracy. Example a lot of ppl use P/E ratio as one of a means to view desirability or a form of virtual repayment period (hinging at 10 ie ref to 10 years) but I suspect this hinge at PE 10 benchmark will move a lower or higher scale benchmark depending on the global movement and may settle at a new benchmark. Reason I say that is because it may become a norm repayment period in the real world to extend if prices of things do not come down while salary is the same.....
Ok Ok coming back to earlier statement of PE (assuming all stays the same) the example I gave as I also use Price/ Cashflow to balance my PE observation to support my own justification when buying or selling. This is what I mean.

WHAT HOUSEEOFORODS MENTIONED IS VERY RELEVANT TO USE ROIC AND EBIT/EV FOR CHECKING THE EFFICIENCY AND VALUE OF A COMPANY'S ORDINARY BUSINESS TO TRY TO AVOID COMPANY BOOKING ONE-OFF ITEM TO INFLATE NET PROFIT AND MISLEAD SHAREHOLDERS. BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SHOW.

If u look at OTB, he also says he uses Diff method to calculate to observe consistency I believe. Same here.

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-11 10:19 | Report Abuse

Lol ....you must ask KCchongnz .....he is the owner of the business...

I know I knw u saw lemang business during raya doing very well huh.......this one you can add on because Raya is yearly and you may be able to project base on annual.

Posted by kcchongnz > 2013-08-11 10:32 | Report Abuse

Posted by shirley1 > Aug 11, 2013 10:09 AM | Report Abuse
juz puzzle huh, if my nasi lemak's business got few shoplots, will it be reflected in my lembang's business balance sheet ?

JUST WONDER WHY TRILLION DID NOT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION. THIS IS MY REPLY TO YOU.

IN YOUR CASE, NASI LEMAK IS ALSO PART OF YOUR ORDINARY BUSINESS AND EVERYTHING WILL BE SHOWN IN THE SAME FINANCIAL STATEMENT.

THIS IS DIFFERENT FROM TANKW'S LEMANG BUSINESS BECAUSE HE JUST INVESTED IN THAT SINGAPORE BUSINESS AS A PART OWNER. HE IS NOT EVEN INVOLVE IN ANYWHERE IN THAT NASI LEMAK BUSINESS.

Posted by shirley1 > 2013-08-11 10:36 | Report Abuse

ok.. thanks both :)

Posted by Trillion > 2013-08-11 10:38 | Report Abuse

Kcchong, don't be so one dimensional......three dimension or four is better. If after I wrote so long, u still don't get it while Tan KW has summarize what I was trying to pass on, then it's understandable why I am not responding!
If u want, go on specific and we can go all the way. No point being sensitive and taking pot shots.....

Posted by kcchongnz > 2013-08-11 10:46 | Report Abuse

Yes, i will take you all the way. Btw, my comments are all very specific so far. Taking pot shot? Have I? Btw, respond to my comments then. They are all very very specific.

Who else thinks that my comments are not specific, and yours are specific?