Posted by walau2u > 2015-03-06 10:37 | Report Abuse

Epf is buying Insas?

Posted by gweilo > 2015-03-06 11:37 | Report Abuse

Interest rate is NOT going up. Fed is trapped ! They raise rates and markets COLLAPSE around the world. And, no matter interest rates go up or down the yield to maturity on the PA does not change. It remains exactly the same ! So, unless you plan to sell it before maturity it makes NO FREAKING DIFFERENCE ! If you bought at 80 sen you are going to get a 50% gain over 5 years or 10% a year. I dare anyone to post here any other BBB or higher rated instrument that yields more. You can't ! They do not exist ! So much for PA being a "bad" investment. Make me wanna laugh.

Posted by gweilo > 2015-03-06 11:41 | Report Abuse

Why has PA gone up from below 80 sen on Tuesday to 88 sen in 3 days ? Because it is a 'bad' investment? ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Or is it because people know VALUE when they see it ?

Posted by Tey Tian Foo > 2015-03-06 12:07 | Report Abuse

Mother up but W stay. Can buy W.

Posted by gweilo > 2015-03-06 13:00 | Report Abuse

Once the warrant is in the money (mother > RM1) the fireworks will begin.

Posted by Fat Cat Tim Buddy > 2015-03-06 13:30 | Report Abuse

insas-pa is definitely a a very safe bargain at current price, even at 90 cents, those that bought at 80cents - congratulation, guarantee no holland in 5 years, and a perfect 10% return per year

Posted by oregami > 2015-03-06 13:54 | Report Abuse

I think son will go down & mom will go up until an equilibrium is reached (premium +-20%). PA will definitely go up till 9xsen.

Posted by kcchongnz > 2015-03-06 14:06 | Report Abuse

The more important factor for Insas warrant is volatility of the Insas share price, not premium.

An option has a higher premium has a higher chance of going up when the expected movement of its underlying share price is violent, than one with lower premium but subdue movement of its underlying share price.

If Insas share price move a lot, for example daily share price changes in sen, 80, 85, 90, 83, 95, 100, 80, 130, 90, 150, 120, 100 etc, warrant has a better chance of going into deep-in-the-money and hence higher value of the warrant than one of 80, 82, 83, 83, 84, 85, 86,.....100.....150.

This is especially true if the time to expiry is long. 5 years is quite long.

Posted by tralala > 2015-03-06 14:19 | Report Abuse

gweilo.... u joke la.. first of all the YTM is about 7% not 10%... second of all its not the Fed funds rate impacting the price of insas-PA its BNM's OPR... 3rd of all how do u know insas is rated as BBB or better ( its not rated by RAM or MARC) so dont act smart... AND lastly, MENARA has issued a bond with a yield > 8% which is about a 5 year bond rated better than BBB... please do research before posting...

Posted by Tey Tian Foo > 2015-03-06 14:21 | Report Abuse

Share with better potential can justify for higher warrant's premium as well.

Posted by Johnnys > 2015-03-06 14:46 | Report Abuse

as soon Insas continue to unload Inari, it price will rocket soon.

Posted by gweilo > 2015-03-06 14:56 | Report Abuse

tralala go back to school it *is* 10% at 80 sen. BBB is a comparable estimate as I would not be so bold as to call it AAA, Menara > 8% ? I'll check it out but it's still not as good as 10% !

Posted by Sean > 2015-03-06 14:58 | Report Abuse

Kian Leong, you have yr point while PA gain must need to deduct the inflation rate... the game is very similar as insurance here... they are just ultilizing yr money value while you dont know how to use it... however, many will still think 4% per annum is very interesting while the WB still have its potential for upside... this is why, am locking my investment here in insas... btw... i think those who subscribed the rps do already earn 1 time when PA and WB is listed(i meant those who holding insas prior before the rps announcement)...

KCCHONGZ just sharing which i see is good to have his knowledge here
chears :)

Posted by gweilo > 2015-03-06 15:04 | Report Abuse

Where is that Menara bond traded ? How liquid is it? What currency is it denominated in? Is Menara a Malaysian or Indonesian company ? What is the coupon rate and current price. All these things very visible with Insas PA but hidden somewhere nobody kenna find with this mysterious bond of yours ? Enlighten us more. Oh and is that the only one you can dig up ?

Posted by kcchongnz > 2015-03-06 15:23 | Report Abuse

Posted by Kian Leong Lim > Mar 6, 2015 02:22 PM | Report Abuse

From Lim Kian Leong: You really learn only after making mistake, you don't learn from textbook, or else, everyone is Albert Einstein already!
記住:你要做一個有清淨心的人，不要受自己的誘惑，人一次只能做一件小事情，注意別人做的小事情，不要受別人的誘惑，別人好康的事情是不會免費的報給你知道或留給你的，對別人你只是需要對他比他對你好一點就足夠了，不要再做螞蟻或蚯蚓也不要把別人當成螞蟻或蚯蚓了。

不要像：一隻螞蟻(天天為自己而活反而 “辛苦”)跟一條蚯蚓(天天為別人而活反而沒有 “好處”)一樣。沒有分別心，是誰在給別人“辛苦”和 “沒有好處”。

Remember what you said today! ok! KCCHONGNZ!


You really need to learn some basic finance like what is required return, what is real return, time value of money, present value, future value, annuity etc. Then only you know things like what is the value of Insas PA, whether a interest rate of 9% is better than the inflation rate of 3.5% etc.

You can invest and make money for yourself without having to know those stuff, no doubt but hard for you to teach me, or others.

My statement cited by you is very basic and fundamental, nothing to remember or what.

Posted by Johnnys > 2015-03-06 15:42 | Report Abuse

how is Mr. KYY feel if Insas try unload some inari... do you think he will buy in this share again? since last time he buy at around RM 1 - 1.2 and mail to Dato Thong teach him to unload some inari share.

Posted by kcchongnz > 2015-03-06 16:00 | Report Abuse

Kian Leong,

I have said many times you need to learn some basic in finance. Otherwise you will be going round and round and thinking everyone is wrong, except you. Or worse, you think I cheat to entice you to buy PA.

4% is the interest rate based on the issued price of RM1.00. You can payment of interest RM40 every year with 1000 shares of Insas PA. But the market price is 80+ sen now, not RM1.00.

Hence you need to know how to estimate required return, and use the cash flows to compute what is your yield-to-maturity. That is the return I am talking about, not the rate of return on the face value of PA.

Posted by tralala > 2015-03-06 16:04 | Report Abuse

hello, when u post its 87 cents... dont cock pls

Posted by tralala > 2015-03-06 16:05 | Report Abuse

u wanna use ur way of calculating, i also can say insas yield 100% cause the price last time 50 cents...

Posted by tralala > 2015-03-06 16:06 | Report Abuse

and WHOAH... u so pro ah... BBB comparable.. im a fixed income analyst also i dare not day its a BBB, u can deduce its comparable with BBB?

Posted by tralala > 2015-03-06 16:10 | Report Abuse

Menara u dunno? its a SPV la... walao... i dont get these ppl who talk so much but know nothing about fixed income

Posted by tralala > 2015-03-06 16:13 | Report Abuse

and even if its 80 cents its only about 9%.. learn how to count PLEASE... and that includes ur reinvested coupons

Posted by tralala > 2015-03-06 16:20 | Report Abuse

wtf... buy rm 1 sell 80 cents... LOL...aiyoo.... i dunno where to begin explaining....

Posted by Fat Cat Tim Buddy > 2015-03-06 16:23 | Report Abuse

Posted by tralala > Mar 6, 2015 04:13 PM | Report Abuse

and even if its 80 cents its only about 9%.. learn how to count PLEASE... and that includes ur reinvested coupons

----
let me show you how to get 10% at 80cents step by step

1. RM1-RM0.8 = RM0.2
2. RM0.04(annual interests)*5(years) = RM 0.2
3. RM 0.2 + RM 0.2 = RM 0.4
4. RM 0.4/5(years) = RM 0.08
5. RM 0.08/80cents = 0.1(10%)

Posted by kcchongnz > 2015-03-06 16:25 | Report Abuse

Posted by Kian Leong Lim > Mar 6, 2015 04:05 PM | Report Abuse
I am not teaching you KCCHONGNZ! I am just telling you not to misled people and bring people to Holland or a trap. See what you said and what Federal Reserve Chairman Yellen said on her article: Yellen warns investors on bond volatility. You said bond has no risk and violatility, you are misleading people, are you taking money from someone, that is why you keep telling people to buy the PA, keep giving wrong statistics, still have the skin to open online classes. Read for yourself, see what Yellen said not long ago.


When and where did I say "bond has no risk and volatility,"?

And when and where did I say Insas PA worth 95 sen?

How did I "misled people and bring people to Holland or a trap."?

When and where did I "keep telling people to buy the PA, keep giving wrong statistics"?

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/71783.jsp

Yes, I have online courses and I have taught hundreds of people. You should learn from me too. No joke, seriously you need to learn some basics in finance and investing.

Posted by Fat Cat Tim Buddy > 2015-03-06 16:25 | Report Abuse

just think dat your nearby grocery shop selling RM1 note for 80-90 cents, will you go buy it?

Posted by ChinKeng Lee > 2015-03-06 16:34 | Report Abuse

Kian Leong Lim , you missed out the warrant .
For those who own the free warrants still carry some value there .
what i guess is if PA up , WB will down or the other way round .

Posted by Johnnys > 2015-03-06 16:35 | Report Abuse

Kian Leong Lim, I agree with kcchongnz, you better take his online cources, learn some basic first.

Posted by tralala > 2015-03-06 16:39 | Report Abuse

let me show u why its about 9.1% step by step..... 4/(1.0915) + 4/(1.0915^2)+ (4/(1.0915^3)+4/(1.0915^4)+104/(1.0915^5) = 80 CENTS!!!!!... ur 4 cent yearly divided is not worth 4 cents 5 years from now... so ur calculation is flawed....

Posted by Fat Cat Tim Buddy > 2015-03-06 16:42 | Report Abuse

not to mention insas-pa is convertible with a insas warlan, other people need to pay RM 1 to convert, and if you buy pa at RM 0.8 , dats like 20% discount already, and dont forget, if you choose not to convert with warlan, you still get the 10% annual return for next 5 years.

the market cap of insas-pa is only RM132.601 millions if it trade at RM 1, so in next 5 years, if insas unfortunately go bankrupt ( which is unlikely) they will have to paying off the insas-pa holder first, with their 30% inari holding, worth RM 600-700millions at current price, and with other assets, i think they will be more than enough money to cover up the insas-pa, which i think, it make insas-pa a very secure and safe investment.

Posted by tralala > 2015-03-06 16:44 | Report Abuse

LOL... convert with insas warrant... did u even read the supporting documents for the PA issuance?

Posted by Fat Cat Tim Buddy > 2015-03-06 16:47 | Report Abuse

ya whatever lol, it is actually ..
4/(8888) + 4/(8888^2)+ (4/(8888^3)+4/(8888^4)+104/(8888^5) = RM 0

dont buy it if you think it is not worth it.

Posted by Fat Cat Tim Buddy > 2015-03-06 16:48 | Report Abuse

no, i dint read it, dont trust me kikiki

Posted by gark > 2015-03-06 16:55 | Report Abuse

tralala it is stated in the prospectus, page 43

You can surrender 1 unit Insas-PA in exchange for RM 1 for then conversion of Insas-WA into 1 odinary share of INSAS

Posted by gark > 2015-03-06 16:56 | Report Abuse

The exchange can be ANYTIME, not only after expiry of the PA..

Posted by Koay Yi Chuan > 2015-03-06 16:58 | Report Abuse

Apparently, someone is not including the two free warrants into the calculation?? U pay RM1, you get PA at 88sen+ 2 warrants worth 55sen = Total RM1.43. So, you earn 43% return. Happy man

Posted by gark > 2015-03-06 16:59 | Report Abuse

Better u guys dont buy the PA.. let the major shareholder sapu all.... to convert his warrants.. at cheaper price. kikiki

Posted by Johnnys > 2015-03-06 17:03 | Report Abuse

I sold PA at first day, reason is because it upside is limited at RM1, but monther is unlimited.
is totally depend how many return you want and how safe.
Buy PA sure is very safe when market down.

Posted by NOBY > 2015-03-06 17:06 | Report Abuse

Posted by Kian Leong Lim > Mar 6, 2015 04:24 PM | Report Abuse

If the PA list at RM1/= is selling to you at RM0.80+ so soon, are you going to question yourself someday, what happen if it drop to RM0.60 and you want to sell at that time before the 5 year deadline! You will not be able to sell without making a loss. The PA will keep on dropping because more people want to sell because they don't want to be stuck until 5 years later when the time value of money makes the money smaller. So RM1/= now is worth less than RM1/= in the future!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe RM0.40 or so, who knows. Interest rate is so low, look at the prices of things 5 years from now, can you imagine?

Obviously money you put in PA need to lock in for 5 years to enjoy the annualized returns calculated. But I can assure you that as the maturity date approaches, the price will go closer to the par value which is RM1 as long as Insas is solvent. It would not make sense for the price to drop to RM0.60 or RM0.4 lets say 1 year before expiry due to the time value of money unless Insas gets into deep shit.

Posted by Fat Cat Tim Buddy > 2015-03-06 17:09 | Report Abuse

everyone have their own mindset and tactic in invest, thats fine, your money you decide. err... thank you veli muacks for selling at such bargain price johnnys kikiki

Posted by kcchongnz > 2015-03-06 17:12 | Report Abuse

Posted by Kian Leong Lim > Mar 6, 2015 04:15 PM | Report Abuse

Why do you want to reveal your mistake to people so easily: If they PA drop to 60 cents in the future, are you going to tell the people, now buy now, hey, now the return is even better, 20% or more.

ME: If it drops to 60 sen, no, I am not going to tell you to buy. I will buy in loads. Now I will start to use margin financing to do it already.

The people who bought that PA at RM1/= is willing to sell you now for 80+, willing to lose 20 cents also want to sell to you? You must think that the Guy who runs Insas is a Buddha. He bought the PA at RM1/= and sell you 80 cents.

Me: Who is the Buddha you refer to? did he sell you at 80 sen? When?

Common run man! Even he is running, that is why he is selling you 80 cent now. That is why he is propping up Insas to put up a show.

Me: Why do you think he is propping up Insas, and sell you PA at 80 sen?

And kcchongnz, probaby take money, he told people the PA has a value of 0.95 but is selling at 0.80+, quick, let us all rush in, are you all blind just like the fool I once was.

Me: I took money? From who? When and where did I tell you PA worth 95 sen?

How could something has of a value of 0.95 and sell at 0.80+, this you have to ask kcchongnz:

Me: In the stock market, price is not equals to value in the short term. Insas PA was down to 79 sen just this week, if price=value, how come the value changes so fast?

Remember this until you need to tell him: you told people the PA has a value of 0.95 but is selling at 0.80+, quick, let us all rush in, are you all blind just like the fool I once was.

Me: No wonder you were a fool from your confession

Posted by CFTrader > 2015-03-06 17:13 |

Post removed.Why?

Posted by Fat Cat Tim Buddy > 2015-03-06 17:17 | Report Abuse

kcchongnz, those dat get it mostly already get it, those dat dont well.. dont bother further explaining to them, they are just too stupid, no worth it if your blood vessel explode kikiki

Posted by danlala00 > 2015-03-06 17:17 | Report Abuse

Short story, if the insas-pa left only 1 year to maturity and the market value is less than RM0.70, i will definately buy non-stop, provided Insas remains solvent of cuz.

Posted by ks55 > 2015-03-06 17:29 | Report Abuse

Posted by kcchongnz > Mar 6, 2015 04:00 PM | Report Abuse


### I have said many times you need to learn some basic in finance. Otherwise you will be going round and round and thinking everyone is wrong, except you. Or worse, you think I cheat to entice you to buy PA.

4% is the interest rate based on the issued price of RM1.00. You can payment of interest RM40 every year with 1000 shares of Insas PA. But the market price is 80+ sen now, not RM1.00.

Hence you need to know how to estimate required return, and use the cash flows to compute what is your yield-to-maturity. That is the return I am talking about, not the rate of return on the face value of PA. ###


Mr kcchongn, I was having similar type of problem when talking to somebody at different frequency. Don't waste your time. OTB is much 'rude' and 'crude' compare with you. People without basic knowledge of finance and economy at times want to shout like an expert. I know pretty well he will respond again with 'fantastic' and illogical argument. Will delete this post when he responds.

Posted by kcchongnz > 2015-03-06 17:30 | Report Abuse

Posted by Kian Leong Lim > Mar 6, 2015 05:13 PM | Report Abuse

1)You imply that bond is very simple (no risk indication) and without much certainty (volatility), did you just wrote this just now!

Me: Simple = No risk? Uncertainty = volatility?

But actually the risk is low. Try learn from Noby above. You really meed to learn.

(2) The valuation shows Insas PA value is 93.5 sen per share.

Me: It is just a valuation. You need to know that 10 people will come up with 10 valuations. But where is 95 sen as mentioned by you?

(3) How did I "misled people and bring people to Holland or a trap."?
You said you do not know the discount rate or the inflation rate in fact. You did not tell them that the discount rate is the inflation rate, without a discount rate that you are sure of, how can you still apply the formula to determine the value of the Insas-PA. You did not mentioned to them because higher and higher in the future, their Insas-PA is going holland or a trap. You don't know one of the variable in the formula, but you can come up with a value (you said was in theory only). You think everyone is insane (you want to open on line class you ask people to use your formula but you tell them you don't know the discount rate but you still can come up with a figure). Are you pretending to be "insane" to people thinking that they would be scared of your formula.

Me: Discount rate = inflation rate?

Is it? So when you use a discount rate for an investment, say share, you use your 3.5%?

(4) When and where did I "keep telling people to buy the PA, keep giving wrong statistics"?

You can not telling people the yield is 9.5% to get people involve in the Insas-PA, when yields rises that indicated that the price of the Insas-PA is dropping, they may gain a higher yield, but their PA is worth less in price. What if the price drop some more from RM0.80+ to RM0.60+ in the future, have you warn them or not. You keep saying this is a profitable venture, but people who bought at RM1.00 already loses 20 cents because the price is RM0.80+. You still encourage them to buy by saying now is even better because the yield rises. But what if the price were to go down somemore, you did not tell them the price can go from RM1.00 to RM0.80+ so soon it may even go down even further in the future?

Remember what you said: You imply that bond is very simple (no risk indication) and without much certainty (volatility), did you just wrote this just now!

Why you can say simple when you don't know the discount rate (the formula is a dead formula everyone can get from the Internet) and the bond is without much uncertaintly (bohong here), even in actual fact the price already drop from RM1.00 to RM0.80+ or may be even lower in the future?

The yield can not be 9.5 percent now for bond buyer because if they bought RM1.00, they already lost 20 cents, or lost 20%, and still they haven't received any money from the company yet?

This is what I meant you are deceiving and misleading people: when yield go up price go down, what you pay become worth less, you lost money, your lost 20% or more if the Insas-PA go down some more in price. You bohong people!


Me: Wah, like that also can!!!!

Posted by Johnnys > 2015-03-06 17:35 | Report Abuse

Posted by Fat Cat Tim Buddy > Mar 6, 2015 05:09 PM | Report Abuse

everyone have their own mindset and tactic in invest, thats fine, your money you decide. err... thank you veli muacks for selling at such bargain price johnnys kikiki

I sell first day because to unlock my margin $$, same time i have make 35% profit 1PA + 2 warrant and the extra $$ to buy more morther share.
from today closing price, it almost same profit if I no sold PA at first day.

Posted by ks55 > 2015-03-06 17:36 | Report Abuse

Just to compare how discussion in a friendly manner with our 'expert' up there:-


### Blog: Valuation of Insas Preference Share and Warrant kcchongnz
Mar 3, 2015 05:39 PM | Report Abuse

Preamble:
This article is for learning, sharing and discussion purpose. It does not constitute a buy or a sell call.

Mr KCCChong, my opinion below should not construe as an attempt to negate effect of your article. Purely want to learn something from you.

1. This PA is nonconvertible, meaning at the end of 5 years, you get back your one ringgit. This is similar to sukuk bond issued by government carries interest 6% per annum.

2. Company loan/bonds are not guarantee by any body, not even the company itself. So call 'payable when able'.

3. High interest rate associated with the risk involved. MGS-Conventional 5 year is at 3.654%. We should expect company loan/PA to pay much higher interest, otherwise there will not giving sweetener up to 2 free warrant for each PA subscribed.

4. I have seen many examples of then seem solid company's bond not able to pay interest or/and redeem in full. Notably the first failed case was Faber Merlin, then UEM bonds (under Halim Saad with coupon rate 8% interest). Most recent one is LionCorp LCB Bonds/Debt/RCSLS. I am not sure how good is our 1MDB bonds now.

5. Five years down the road, a ringgit now is equivalent to 1.27 ringgit with 5% inflation. What happen in between we have hyper inflation of 10 to 20% inflation? What you earn from PA will not preserve you buying power.

6. Consider REITs. Yes, when economy no good, less business can survive. Things happened in US in 2008/09 where all retail malls REITs suffered. In our case, 1997/98 saw non of the existing retail mall shut down because of no tenant. Those fail malls were the highly geared company like Lion Group, or company that jumped into wagon putting up half completed mall like Kemayan.

7. When market crash, what type of counter fare worst? REITs or Insas? One Hektar(1.50) can buy 1.8 Insas (0.835). If Hektar fall to 1.00, how much do you think Insas then will worth? How bad business of Insas will be affect? How bad Insas cash flow will become? Can it service interest of PA? Can redeem PA in full?

8. In a very very bad case scenario like Zimbabwe, inflation in million % per year. It will be the hard asset that can hedged against all these madness. If Zimbabwe is extreme, think of Russia and Venezuela now. If Ringgit going to fall to 4 or 5 to a USD, what will be the thing you want to hold on? Land? REITs? Property Developer? Contractor? For me, of course, REITs is one of the best option. Probably you know I have other option as well.

9. In conclusion, I am of the opinion 8.5% interest from Insas-PA is good, but I will still prefer REITs like Hektar. I also opine REITs hedge against inflation, Insas-PA does not. And REITs is having much lesser risk.

10. Thank you, and will appreciate if you can give some comment to the above. ###

Posted by kcchongnz > 2015-03-06 17:38 | Report Abuse

Many people here do not know about finance too. It is ok as you know not everyone learns about finance. Some are Doctors, some engineers, some housewives, macham macham and they have their own skills. There are also many in the forums who are very knowledgeable too which we can learn from. I know by their names.

but this gentleman accused me of misleading people to buy Insas PA, that I takes money from someone (to promote Insas PA?), that I "bohong" not so good lah.

Posted by Fat Cat Tim Buddy > 2015-03-06 17:40 | Report Abuse

margin.. i see, no choice

risk scale 0 to 10

insas-pa = 0.5
insas mother = 5
insas wb = 8 to 9 ( at current price )

that just wat i think