Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-20 17:00 | Report Abuse

Btw speakup, someone is trolling you at Jayatiasa forum.

Posted by BLee > 2024-04-20 17:46 | Report Abuse

“3i> Insas
Current Assets 1989 m
Total Liabilities 531 m
________________________

CA - TL = 1458 m

Market Cap = 663 m (@share price of RM 1)

Net-Net value 1458m - Market Cap 663 m = 795m

Therefore, you can take this company private, settle all the liabilities and still pocket RM 795 m cash.”

Never thought can calc Net-Net value this way? Impressive?
Since Market Cap is a ‘moving target’, how sure can ‘sapu’ all at RM1?
Only the cash portion in CA sure if..(not suggesting anything), how much ‘others’ CA can turn into cash easily? The ‘if’ makes share investing interesting. I will keep my zero cost holding, not worrying it will fall below RM1, happy Trading and TradeAtYourOwnRisk

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-20 18:02 | Report Abuse

Ya, ya, hostile takeover isn't practical, once it's leaked out the price will go limit up. The most practical is Thong himself trigger a MGO by exercising all his warrants at 90 sen. But at 90 sen takeover price who wants to sell their Insas?

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2024-04-20 18:12 | Report Abuse

Net Net Working Capital Formula – Further Analysis and Discussion:
Net Net Working Capital is a subset of Graham’s Net Working Capital is a subset of Net Working Capital (also known as Working Capital).
1) Net Working Capital = Current Assets – Current Liabilities
2) Graham’s Net Working Capital = Current Assets – Total Liabilities
3) Net Net Working Capital = Cash + Short Term Marketable Investments + Accounts Receivable * 75% + Inventory * 50% – Total Liabilities
Note that the results of each formula are presented in a decreasing order. That is to say Net Net Working Capital will provide the lowest and hence, most conservative, value. In other words, all else being equal, of the three formulas above, a stock trading below Net N et Working Capital provides the investor with the largest margin of safety.
Value investing is about buying a stock at a sufficient discount to intrinsic value. Graham’s “Net Working Capital” or the “Net Net Working Capital” formulas can be used as preliminary screens to identify potentially undervalued stocks or deep value stocks.11

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-20 18:16 | Report Abuse

Isn't Graham dead?

Posted by Sslee > 2024-04-20 19:00 | Report Abuse

Know what IBs analyst value capA ( A PN17 and insolvent company with negative billion in net current assets, negative billion equity and billion in debts)?

Why bother with all those white man formula? Dead or alive.

I once wrote:
Definition: Intrinsic value is the Present value of the investment of all the expected cash flow over the lifetime discounted at the appropriate discount rate.

Intrinsic value = (CF1/ (1+d)^1) + (CF2/(1+d)^2) + ----- +(CFn/(1+d)^n)

Where:
CF = Cash Flow in the Period
d = Discount rate
n = The period number
This Intrinsic value is actually a Discounted Cash Flow (DCF)
Example of intrinsic value of INSAS is then the Sum of DCF expected cash flow from varies business streams.
For INSAS assets rich case, it is my opinion that the liquid assets minus total liabilities should be added to this intrinsic value.

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2024-04-20 19:34 | Report Abuse

>>>

Net Net Working Capital Formula – Further Analysis and Discussion:

Net Net Working Capital is a subset of Graham’s Net Working Capital and this is itself a subset of Net Working Capital (also known as Working Capital).

1) Net Working Capital = Current Assets – Current Liabilities

2) Graham’s Net Working Capital = Current Assets – Total Liabilities

3) Net Net Working Capital = Cash + Short Term Marketable Investments + Accounts Receivable * 75% + Inventory * 50% – Total Liabilities

Note that the results of each formula are presented in a decreasing order. That is to say Net Net Working Capital will provide the lowest and hence, most conservative, value.

In other words, all else being equal, of the three formulas above, a stock trading below Net Net Working Capital provides the investor with the largest margin of safety.

Value investing is about buying a stock at a sufficient discount to intrinsic value. Graham’s “Net Working Capital” or the “Net Net Working Capital” formulas can be used as preliminary screens to identify potentially undervalued stocks or deep value stocks.

>>>


Even when using the net working capital or net-net working capital, Benjamin Graham still demanded a margin of safety, buying only when the market price is at least 30% below these values.

Posted by Sslee > 2024-04-20 19:40 | Report Abuse

Is 3iii saying those buying capA must be mad and silly gambler?

Value investing is about buying a stock at a sufficient discount to intrinsic value. Graham’s “Net Working Capital” or the “Net Net Working Capital” formulas can be used as preliminary screens to identify potentially undervalued stocks or deep value stocks.
>>>

Even when using the net working capital or net-net working capital, Benjamin Graham still demanded a margin of safety, buying only when the market price is at least 30% below these values.

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-20 20:04 | Report Abuse

Aiyaa, don't know why you two want to debate. I still stick to my method buy cheaply, sell highly, repeat and make many fold gains.

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-20 20:10 | Report Abuse

MrSslee, I want you to take note of this. If Thong exercise all his warrants at 90 sen he will instantly increase his shareholding in the the enlarged capital of Insas to approximately 42.5%. He is obliged to make a MGO at 90 sen but even if no one accepts the offer, Thong still will end up with 42.5%.

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-20 20:13 | Report Abuse

Insas setting such a low warrant exercise price of 90 sen greatly benefited Thong.

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-20 20:16 | Report Abuse

I doubt that most people understand what I am saying here. This is one reason why Insas price always drift down back. There's absolutely no reason for Thong to push up share price of Insas. He can get them so cheap at 90 sen at any time he chooses.

Posted by xiaoeh > 2024-04-20 20:22 | Report Abuse

use simple terms TheContrarian...
if u unable to describe it in simple terms mean u yourself not fully understand what u r saying....
no angry, no hard feelings, no offence...

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-20 20:23 | Report Abuse

Benjamin Graham, Warren Buffett, George Soros and whoever out there wouldn't understand what I am saying. Only Thong knows this.

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-20 20:26 | Report Abuse

Thong and PAC have 218 million shares and 112 million warrants. Do your own calculation. It's simple Maths.

Posted by Sslee > 2024-04-20 20:50 | Report Abuse

RI of RPS with free warrant is a way to reward shareholder and as a same time for Thong and PAC to hold the warrant as a defensive move against any attempt of hostile takeover.

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2024-04-20 20:53 | Report Abuse

>>>
Sslee

Is 3iii saying those buying capA must be mad and silly gambler?

>>>

Games people play. These are: positive sum games, negative sum games and zero sum games. Know how to play each of these games.

Important to choose the games you wish to play.

Know the probability of success and probability of failure of the game you wish to play. In investing, this is the upside:downside ratio. Even more importantly, is to understand the consequence of the various outcomes from the game.

In Russian roulette, the gun has 1 bullet and the probability of being killed by the bullet is 1:6. Given the consequence of the outcome, one will choose not to play even though the probability may be in your "favour". 😀

Play the game with the highest probability of success (upside:downside of > 3:1) and with a high probability of big rewards (e.g. compounding at >15% per year over 5 years, that is doubling every 5 years).

Stay inactive, observe and learn most of the time. Act decisively and courageously when opportunity presents.

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2024-04-20 20:56 | Report Abuse

In some listed company, the insiders make more money from the fluctuations of the share prices than from the business profits and dividends.

Posted by Sslee > 2024-04-20 21:03 | Report Abuse

On Feb 2026 if Insas is below 90 sen then Thong and PAC can collect all WC not already owned by them at 0.5 sen and then convert all the WC to insas. What will be Thong and PAC holding % of Insas then?

Posted by TheContrarian > Apr 20, 2024 8:26 PM | Report Abuse
Thong and PAC have 218 million shares and 112 million warrants. Do your own calculation. It's simple Maths

Posted by Sslee > 2024-04-20 21:05 | Report Abuse

No worries, I will make jayatiasa and insas my top 2 in my portfolio.

Posted by Sslee > 2024-04-20 21:12 | Report Abuse

By now you should know why Thong refuse to give fair and reasonable dividend and distribute retained profit as special dividend.

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-20 21:27 | Report Abuse

Posted by Sslee > 19 minutes ago | Report Abuse

On Feb 2026 if Insas is below 90 sen then Thong and PAC can collect all WC not already owned by them at 0.5 sen and then convert all the WC to insas. What will be Thong and PAC holding % of Insas then?


Approximately 55.2% of the enlarged share capital.

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-20 21:33 | Report Abuse

I think this is Thong's last chance to increase his shareholding via the exercising the warrants route. It's going to be difficult to justice another round of RPS with free warrants again because Insas is hoarding so much cash and M&A Equity Holdings has already been listed.

Posted by speakup > 2024-04-20 21:51 | Report Abuse

Sifu Leno probably sold 1.30
U cannot sell higher than a Sifu

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-20 21:53 | Report Abuse

speakup, don't make us all laugh at you. Hahahahahahaha 🤣

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-20 21:55 | Report Abuse

KUALA LUMPUR (July 9): Insas Bhd is planning to raise up to RM132.6 million from a renounceable rights issue of redeemable preference shares (rights RPS) with free detachable warrants to repay its bridging loans.

In a filing with Bursa Malaysia, the group said the rights issue involves up to 132.6 million new redeemable preference shares at an issue price of RM1 per rights RPS, together with 331.51 million new free detachable warrants on a basis of two rights RPS and five warrants for every 10 shares.

The tenure of the rights RPS is five years and it has a dividend rate of 3.8% per annum based on the issue price of the rights RPS.

When Insas issued the RPS it was done with so much warrants (5 : 2 ratio) attached. Obviously Thong benefited the most from this.

Posted by speakup > 2024-04-20 22:00 | Report Abuse

Must shoe polish Sifu mah

Posted by xiaoeh > 2024-04-20 22:03 | Report Abuse

Mr Leno will sell at only RM6 KAMBING....
unless under certain unforeseen circumstances that Mr Leno needed cash in urgency...
what do u think Speakup...

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-20 22:32 | Report Abuse

Insas-WC will expire in 22 months. How will Insas shares be played out until then? What is Thong's game plan?

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-20 22:38 | Report Abuse

Posted by Sslee > 1 hour ago | Report Abuse

On Feb 2026 if Insas is below 90 sen then Thong and PAC can collect all WC not already owned by them at 0.5 sen and then convert all the WC to insas.

Assuming that this takes place, there will be instant dilution of the NTA of Insas. And the losers will be the minority shareholders.

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2024-04-21 07:19 | Report Abuse

FISCAL YEAR ENDING 2023
PRICE 1.00

MARKET CAP (MILLION) 663.02

ROE 4.91%
ROA 4.05%
P/B 0.27
P/E 5.40
EARNINGS YIELD 18.51%
DIVIDEND YIELD 2.50%


Some investors are attracted to this stock because it is so undervalued. Yes, it is undervalued and they are right.

VALUE TRAPS
How do you decide whether it is a value trap or not?

Value traps are statistically very cheap and very alluring.

First question to ask: “Why is God so kind on you that you are the only one who has this tremendous insight that this stock is cheap and all the other people who are very active, smart and intelligent in the market are ignoring this company?”

Is there an embedded growth optionality in the company? Can the company have a growth phase? Can the company come out with some new product offering which can introduce growth?

This is a dynamic exercise. You will need to revisit the hypothesis every now and again, at intervals.

Two characteristics of value traps are:

(1) They typically don’t tend to grow more than the nominal GDP
(2) They cannot reinvest their cash flow.

So the question you should ask is what is the catalyst which will change this and allow them to reinvest the capital which they are throwing off? In its absence, you have a classic example where the company had great cash flows and no catalyst.

Your sole focus of whether to participate in a seemingly value trap could be you calling out the catalyst that will catapult it out of this situation.

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2024-04-21 07:24 | Report Abuse

P/B 0.27

So, when full value is realised, the investor gained 4 folds. When will this be realised? How much will be the gain (also uncertain)? These are among the limitations of deep value investing. OTOH, these bargains, by nature of their business, are less likely to grow into multi-baggers.

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2024-04-21 07:26 | Report Abuse

I believe many deep value investors in Insas in i3 bought when they were active participants in INVESTLAH FORUM. How many years have passed by?

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2024-04-21 07:31 | Report Abuse

If they had identified Padini then, they would have a multi-bagger (5x to 6x) and all its dividends.
There is always an opportunity cost to every decision.
No right or wrong. Just trying to understand how we make decisions guided by our internal schema.
Read Think fast and think slow by Kahneman, an excellent book on understanding the process of thinking.

Posted by Sslee > 2024-04-21 07:32 | Report Abuse

Is 3iii implied Tong of theedgemalaysia who started this round of Insas spike up is the only one who has this tremendous insight that this stock is cheap and all the other people who are very active, smart and intelligent (3iii included) in the market are ignoring this company because of their ignorance or ego or prejudice or they are not smart enough?

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2024-04-21 07:38 | Report Abuse

>>>
Posted by Sslee > 1 minute ago | Report Abuse

Is 3iii implied Tong of theedgemalaysia who started this round of Insas spike up is the only one who has this tremendous insight that this stock is cheap and all the other people who are very active, smart and intelligent (3iii included) in the market are ignoring this company because of their ignorance or ego or prejudice or they are not smart enough?
>>>


SSLee
Your interpretation is absolutely off the mark.
It is a general remark. Ask the right questions. The first question to ask when you find an extremely undervalued stock is obvious. Why is it so undervalued?

Is Parkson undervalued? I think its P/B is even lower. But then, many can give a lot of reasons why it should be so.

It is a check list to guide one on deciding whether this is a value trap or not a value trap. A very general, generic statement.

Posted by Sslee > 2024-04-21 07:49 | Report Abuse

Know what is insas NAPS growth rate?

The problem with insas is due to controlling shareholder Thong and PAC would like to keep insas price low so that they can time their move to increase their holding from 32.96% to above 50% at the lowest cost to them.

As minority shareholders I can't do anything except buy low and sell high.

Posted by Sslee > 2024-04-21 07:52 | Report Abuse

If only I have a billion I will make a hostile takeover of Insas and make another billion.

Posted by speakup > 2024-04-21 08:30 | Report Abuse

is mphbcap also another value trap ?

Posted by CharlesT > 2024-04-21 09:12 | Report Abuse

In short, another Holland buy call of Sifu

Posted by Sslee > 2024-04-21 09:34 | Report Abuse

Haha as long as his holland call did not kill you then you still make a huge gain from his chun chun call.

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-21 09:58 | Report Abuse

Insas rally was a result of sharks switching out of Dr Yu's companies into Insas. This excited Tong and also Chong who wrote lengthy articles to justify the spike comparing wonderful deep, deep undervalued Insas to Dr Yu's speculative overvalued companies.

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-21 10:05 | Report Abuse

The articles gave the impression that Insas rally is the start of a fruitful journey that would take the share to drizzling heights, and that a person would be a fool to miss this golden opportunity.

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-21 10:09 | Report Abuse

I don't expect people here to understand what I am saying. Benjamin Graham, Warren Buffett, George Soros and the like-minded wouldn't understand anyway. That's how some people can make a four fold gain on Insas while others, well others are still waiting for Insas to move from RM1 to RM5 for their four fold gain.

Posted by Sslee > 2024-04-21 10:12 | Report Abuse

One of them is Leno still waiting for RM 6 or 60 kambing. If Leno is not careful come Feb 2026 his WC can be a worthless toilet paper.

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-21 10:34 | Report Abuse

Insas has all the superb financial numbers (well, except dividend yield) and yet, yet it drifts down continuously for weeks, with no end in sight. I already gave a likely reason. But people here mostly don't understand what I am saying. They think they are buying a dollar for a quarter.

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-21 10:46 | Report Abuse

I only started investing in Insas eight years ago and it has been such a wonderful investment. Thrice I completely sold off Insas because one of my investment rule is never to fall in love with any of my investment. I can easily let go of what I love at the right time for the right price. This brings us to the question of right timing. The best time to sell has always been when everyone else gets so excited.

Posted by Sslee > 2024-04-21 10:52 | Report Abuse

Insas attracted many retail investors hence many retail investors and small sharks buy low and start selling to new retail investors when price hit 1.20 and above

Once insas price start to retreat many retail investors just cut lose and put their money in other hot stocks.

Insas need a deep pocket big shark to make a raid and take over Insas to unlock its value or else Insas will remain a value trap.
Controlling shareholders (Thong and his PAC) like to lock value inside insas untill they make their move to increase their holding from 32.96% to above 50% at lowest cost to them.

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-21 10:59 | Report Abuse

Sharks objective is not to take over. It's pump and dump. Sometimes they pump to drizzling heights, sometimes they just pump up 30%.

Posted by TheContrarian > 2024-04-21 11:00 | Report Abuse

Always buy before the sharks pump, and sell before they dump.