kcchongnz blog
Is Jaks a big fat frog jumping all around? kcchongnz
“Jaks has secured agreements which include a land-lease deal, a power plant agreement, build-operate-transfer (BOT) contract, coal-supply agreement and a government guarantee. More importantly, it has roped in an established power plant builder, China Power Engineering Consulting Group Co Ltd (CPECC) as its equity partner to build a 1200 MW coal-fired power plant in Hai Duong province, Vietnam. The JV company has also secured US$1.4bn (c.RM5.8bn) in financing, or 75% of project costs. Works have commenced in 2QCY16, with the first phase to be completed by 2020. We expect its near term earnings to be underpinned by its Vietnam engineering, procurement and construction (EPC) contract worth RM1.9bn.
Jaks, together with CPECC, is constructing a BOT power plant, with an estimated cost of US$1.87bn with 25 years’ concession and power purchase agreement with Viet Nam Electricity (EVN). US$1.4bn already secured back in September 2015 from Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, China Construction Bank Corporation and Export-Import Bank of China. The JV has US$160m capital (equity portion) and expects the remaining balance of US$307.1m to be injected in the next 3 years. Management expects strong IRR in the mid-teens with the first unit expected to be completed by mid-2020, and the second unit 6 months later.”
Source Public Investment Bank Berhad, January 10 2017.
The JV for the power plant development requires capital to develop this project, in return, they are rewarded with regular income from the sale of electric power over a period of 25 years, at a rate of return, I term it as an Internal rate of return, IRR.
How good is this project? We will have to do a financial analysis of the project based on the net present value (NPV), or internal rate of return (IRR) using the cash inflows and outflows from the project. This we need some knowledge of finance.
The link below explains what NPV and IRR are and their importance in assessing the viability of a project.
http://www.investopedia.com/walkthrough/corporate-finance/4/npv-irr/introduction.aspx
According to the report from Public Investment Bank, the cost of the power plant development is estimated to be USD1.87 billion. 75% of the cost, or USD1.4 billion has been secured. The equity portion of the joint venture, JV, is 30%, or USD470 million, of which USD160m had been paid up, with the rest of USD310m, or RM1230m, to be injected in the next three years. The additional equity injection will be from the construction “profit” of about USD370, or RM1500m, or estimated 20% profit from the RM1.87b EPC works.
The construction “profit” is just an accounting number, from left pocket to right pocket, and back to left pocket, assuming each partner has the same share of the cake of 70-30 as the JV partnership.
As you can see, there are cash inflows and outflows to and from Jaks and CPECC; regular income from power sales for 25 years, outflows such as equity injections, initial as well as for the next few years, and of course repayment of bank loans.
All the numbers above may not be correct, as I have to admit that I do not know much about this project, but merely share the little that I know and what I thought. The pertinent questions are; what is the NPV, and what is your required return?
For NPV computations, we need to estimate all these future cash outflows and inflows at different periods, and discount them back to the present with a discount rate. The discount rate will depend on many factors, some of which are as below:
- Inflation rate
- Currency risk
- Risk free rate
-
Execution risk
- Construction risk
- Coal supply risk
- Partnership risk
- Payment risk
- Political risk
- Social and environmental risk
- Others
Currently the 10-year government bond rate is 5.8%, and inflation rate is about 4.5%. The Vietnamese Dong was known to be volatile historically.
What would be your required return if you were to invest in a business in Vietnam with all the risks above?
For me, my required return will be a summation of risk free rate plus a risk premium. The risk premium will depend on how risky the project is, and how uncertain are the future cash flows estimations. For a normal business locally, my required return would be around 10%-15%.
If your required return is say 6%, lower than the estimate IRR of “mid-teens” as given by the Public Investment Bank report, you would probably be safe and would get a high positive NPV, which is good. Otherwise your NPV will be negative, a project which should never be started. This is because capital is a scarce resource. There is opportunity cost, and there are risks.
If your required return is substantially lower than the estimated IRR, you probably will be ok investing in Jaks. However, if your required return is substantially higher than the estimated IRR, you would be in for financial trouble.
Hence, the viability of investing in Jaks solely depend on your required return compared to NPV or IRR and the accuracy of estimation of future cash flows. The construction “profit” is just a smokescreen, unless Jaks is the contractor doing most of the EPC works and reward itself, itself only, with big fat construction margins.
Related Stocks
| Chart | Stock Name | Last | Change | Volume |
|---|
More articles on kcchongnz blog
Insas Warrants WC and Its Valuation kcchongnz
Created by kcchongnz | Jan 22, 2024
Which to buy, Insas or Insas WC?
Isn’t this the most undervalued stock in Bursa?: Insas Berhad by Kcchongnz
Created by kcchongnz | Jan 15, 2024
2024 New Year Reflection Investing in the Stock Market: Timing the Market
Created by kcchongnz | Jan 01, 2024
2023 Christmas reflection on pitfalls of investing in the Malaysian stock market kcchongnz
Created by kcchongnz | Dec 25, 2023
Introduction: The Complete Dividend Investing Guide That Works by K C Chong
Created by kcchongnz | Oct 02, 2022
Discussions
6 people like this. Showing 50 of 100 comments
It's important to understand how people perceive risk, and how that translates into investment behavior.
Andrew Lo
2017-05-22 20:35
Great investors need to have the right combination of intuition, business sense and investment talent.
Andrew Lo
2017-05-22 20:35
Most people are overconfident about their own abilities. That is probably a good thing. But we would be horrified if a physician's aide engaged in heart surgery.
Andrew Lo
2017-05-22 20:44
Bitcoin fly to the moon already value investing still cannot go up
:D
Today digital coin total market cap exceeding 80b USD!!
Huge jump from a 50b just last week!
2017-05-22 21:50
Posted by stockmanmy > May 22, 2017 10:13 PM | Report Abuse
so kc...details matter....
project IRR 12% can transform into huge equity IRR once gearing ( borrowings) is taken into account.
Can you elaborate what you mean here?
"project IRR"? equity IRR? what is the difference?
How "borrowings" come into the equation of IRR?
2017-05-22 23:56
Posted by stockmanmy > May 22, 2017 10:20 PM | Report Abuse
kc
share market is short term in nature.
business men can be longer term in nature.
ME; SO WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY?
but who will believe you no money to make in a US$ 2 billion project?
ME: WHO SAID GOT MONEY OR NO MONEY TO MAKE? AND WHETHER IT IS US$2 BILLION OF $2 M?
2017-05-22 23:59
Posted by stockmanmy > May 22, 2017 10:33 PM | Report Abuse
kc
nobody force you to buy.
ME: WHO SAID WHO FORCED WHO TO BUY? JAKS BELONG TO YOU?
but lots of stuffs you just assumed....and starts to comment.
ME: WHAT DID I ASSUME? CAN'T I WRITE AN ARTICLE TO SHARE MY POINT OF VIEW? SO EVERYONE MUST LISTEN TO YOUR VIEW, AND YOUR VIEW ONLY?
eg...to reporters in Hanoi....what you want Jaks MD to say? that their equity IRR is very high?
ME: ????
on a project IRR of 12% ( before gearings)
ME: IRR 12% BEFORE GEARING? IS THAT IRR OF 12% ALL FROM JAKS OWN POCKET WITHOUT BORROWINGS?
......what would profits be on 3:1 gearing and 6% interest rate? Any ideas?
ME: EVALUATION OF A PROJECT IS BY IRR, NPV, OR THE CRUDE PAYBACK PERIOD.
I GOT NO IDES WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! YOU TELL ME THEN.
even assuming 12%, it is nothing to laugh at with US$ 2 billion project.
ME: LAUGH AT WHAT? WHO LAUGH AT WHO?
12% means it doubles every 6 years......how many doubling in the concession period?
ME; WOW, EUREKA, USING RULE OF 72 TO EVALUATE A PROJECT. SENSATIONAL!
2017-05-23 00:08
The answer is simple: If Jaks succeed, Mr.Koon will be a billionaire. If it fails, then kc is right. Please note that many rich people get rich through low roic business like YTL (2.1b usd net worth). No point argue whether power business is viable or not.It's a matter of execution of this project. If the capital is not investing in... then how we get all the electricity that we need.........
2017-05-23 00:08
Posted by stockmanmy > May 23, 2017 12:14 AM | Report Abuse
kc
you are just being naughty... I have to assume you understand simple cash flow projections and IRR.
ME: IT IS RATHER ODD THAT I AS AN ENGINEER UNDERSTAND IRR PERFECTLY WELL, WHEREAS AN ACCOUNTANT HAS SHOWN HE HAS NO CLUE AT ALL WHAT IRR IS WITH ALL THOSE STATEMENTS.
bottom line is as golden eggs says....it is all about execution and business risk.
ME: ISN'T MY ARTICLE SHARED ABOUT RISK AND REWARD, INCLUDING BUSINESS RISK AND EXECUTION RISK?
there is enough profits in the IPP to make Jaks MD the new Francis Yeoh and KYY a billionaire if it succeeds.
ME: WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BRING ALL THESE PEOPLE IN FOR DISCUSSION OF THIS TOPIC? DID I MENTION ANYONE OF THEM?
2017-05-23 00:25
Posted by stockmanmy > May 23, 2017 12:25 AM | Report Abuse
kc
you are an academician....trained to look down at IRR 12%...
ME:ACADEMICIAN? WHO? I AM AN ENGINEER. HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE TO SAY THAT? I WAS EVEN A LEAD CIVIL ENGINEER IN A POWER PLANT BEFORE.
TRAINED TO LOOK DOWN AT IRR 12%? WHO LOOKS DOWN? DID I MENTION I LOOK DOWN ON IRR OF 12%/ WHERE?
but details matter.......there are many ways to compute IRR, without looking at the workings, you just cannot say 12% is low.
ME; MANY WAYS TO COMPUTE IRR? WHERE YOU LEARN ONE? WHO SAYS IRR 12% IS LOW?
there is a third IRR which is even higher....remember $ 400 million of the equity actually came fom EPCC? That means the real equity is much smaller, and that translates into an adjusted real equity IRR which is even much much bigger.
ME: WOW, THIRD IRR! INCREDIBLE!
LET AN ENGINEER TEACH AN ACCOUNTANT A LITTLE FINANCE. IN A PROJECT FINANCIAL APPRAISAL, THERE IS ONLY ONE IRR. CASH IN, CASH OUT, BEGINNING VALUE, END VALUE, ITERATE THE DISCOUNT RATE TO FORCE THE BEGIN VALUE EQUALS TO THE END VALUE, YOU GET IRR. YOU MAY GET TWO VALUES, BUT ONLY ONE IS CORRECT.
COMPARE YOUR REQUIRED RETURN TO THE IRR. YOU THEN CAN DECIDE IF THE IRR IS GOOD.
YOUR REQUIRED RETURN DEPENDS ON MANY THINGS, COST OF BORROWINGS, BUSINESS RISKS, FINANCIAL RISK, CONFIDENCE OF EARNINGS AND CASH FLOWS ESTIMATES. IN THIS CASE, MANY OTHER RISKS SUCH AS CURRENCY RISKS, POLITICAL RISKS, PARTNERSHIP RISK, ETC.
2017-05-23 00:46
Posted by stockmanmy > May 23, 2017 12:41 AM | Report Abuse
and kc
please don't assume I know nothing because you really don't know any thing about me....just as you don't know the deatiled workings when Jaks MD says project IRR is 12 %.
ME: WELL, I THINK I CAN JUDGE YOU VERY WELL.
MY POST DOESN'T SPECULATE ON ANYTHING, JUST BASED ON WHAT WERE GIVEN SUCH AS IRR. MAY BE YOU CAN TELL US WHAT THE "EXTRA' THAT YOU KNOW.
They have teams of bankers, project managers and accountants going through every single item, and they have to present to the Vietnam government in such a way everyone is happy.
ME: WHOSE INTEREST BANKERS CARE OF? SO IF YOU ARE HAPPY WITH IRR OF 12%, THAT IS FINE. WHO HAS OBJECTION ABOUT THAT?
Jaks first went to Vietnam in 2006...imagine it is 11 years in the making. ..The guy is great and deserves his success.
ME: WOW, 11 YEARS ALREADY. REALLY GREAT!
2017-05-23 00:51
Wow! so beautifully put :)
LET AN ENGINEER TEACH AN ACCOUNTANT A LITTLE FINANCE. IN A PROJECT FINANCIAL APPRAISAL, THERE IS ONLY ONE IRR. CASH IN, CASH OUT, BEGINNING VALUE, END VALUE, ITERATE THE DISCOUNT RATE TO FORCE THE BEGIN VALUE EQUALS TO THE END VALUE, YOU GET IRR. YOU MAY GET TWO VALUES, BUT ONLY ONE IS CORRECT.
COMPARE YOUR REQUIRED RETURN TO THE IRR. YOU THEN CAN DECIDE IF THE IRR IS GOOD.
YOUR REQUIRED RETURN DEPENDS ON MANY THINGS, COST OF BORROWINGS, BUSINESS RISKS, FINANCIAL RISK, CONFIDENCE OF EARNINGS AND CASH FLOWS ESTIMATES. IN THIS CASE, MANY OTHER RISKS SUCH AS CURRENCY RISKS, POLITICAL RISKS, PARTNERSHIP RISK, ETC.
2017-05-23 01:01
your required rate of return could be subjective compare to the company required rate of return as the company has difference stance? What is the IRR norm for coal-based power plant in Vietnam? I am sure they have done their research prior that. For the risks mentioned, i think the management has addressed well through their meeting with PBB analyst. Of course there are still some assumption but that is what business is afterall.
2017-05-23 01:26
stockmanmy, always define where is the conflict first...
perhaps his statement is completely inline with yours..
what is it that you are stressing and trying to put across?
where is your confusion/dispute with his statements?
2017-05-23 02:00
.
Anyway... for what that we all know... for the foreseeable and mid term... watch this closely... the EPC be a very good start for the IPP project
r°Moi And.... the (EPC) contract worth RM1.9bn... could well be much much easier than r°Moi had earlier thought
22/05/2017 08:40
.
2017-05-23 08:01
Let ride TRC, don't waste time on Jaks. whats the point analysing it when you not interested to invest in it? Jaks has Uncle Koon, i will join in few years time but not now.
2017-05-23 10:54
Why so much fuss over JAKS? Before this, it was JTiasa, Xingquan, among others. What happened to these stocks subsequently? Why only blow trumpet on the winners but forgot to highlight the losers. By being transparent, we can then judged how good the person really is.
2017-05-23 11:00
Value investing only care about getting cheaper
And the cheaper they think the lower they will want to buy
And the price will keep going down despite the market condition is bullish
This is how the newbie get into value trap
The low get lower
2017-05-23 13:10
this discussion has really aroused my interest to know more what is IRR
from my reading so far, still have not truly understood what is IRR, I am glad to say that
1. KC had presented his case systematically , readable and comprehendible ,
very good, and has aroused my interest to know more
2. Stockmanny , i do not know how to write anything good about you , honestly
speaking I do not understand what are you trying to say about IRR, I have a
feeling you are trying to mislead the reader into buying a high risk stock at a
high price, that is very bad , no good
my conclusion : JAKS not a good buy at current price !
why ?
the risk is very very very... much higher the the big reward
what is the major risk?
KYY holding !!!!!
when he starts selling you cry like no tomorrow
what to do ?
BUY GADANG !!!
WHY?
CAN SLEEP WELL !!!
2017-05-23 13:11
Next time we will see value investing in digital coin soon
This is the richest that create value rule
The best value digital coin is the one use the less energy to mine a single coin!
See this is how rule is being made
2017-05-23 13:15
After few year another set of new rule will surface
The best value digital coin is the one that pay good dividend
Oh yeah digital coin also can pay dividend
And safety of margin in digital coin is xxx%
It is cheap!
2017-05-23 13:17
Posted by CharlesT > May 23, 2017 06:52 AM | Report Abuse
Kc dont bully 61 years old retired senior ac clerk lah
Charles, look at who is trying to bully who. Hear it from a third party, a credible person.
Posted by Ooi Teik Bee > May 21, 2017 12:12 PM | Report Abuse
Someone is looking for every chance to attack KC and valued investors.
What I am trying to do is to have some discussions with this 61 year old accountant, on accounting and finance, who "is looking for every chance to attack KC and valued investors."
2017-05-23 15:31
Aiya, pity KC loh, always bully by a dog. Whatever KC said sure kena twisted by the doggy
2017-05-23 15:46
Posted by ipomember > May 23, 2017 01:26 AM | Report Abuse
your required rate of return could be subjective compare to the company required rate of return as the company has difference stance? What is the IRR norm for coal-based power plant in Vietnam? I am sure they have done their research prior that. For the risks mentioned, i think the management has addressed well through their meeting with PBB analyst. Of course there are still some assumption but that is what business is afterall.
If I invest in a company, I do not simply accept what the management says. That is my style. No, I do not invest in this company. No, I wrote this to share with people here what I think, not to degrade the company. I like to write and share. I know many do not like me doing so, but I think there are some more mature investors who like to hear the other side of the story to make a better investing decision.
Note management is not the same as shareholders, and they have different interest, although often management wears two hats, but still their interest is not the same as other shareholders. I know this well as I was a corporate guy before.
I present my points here about what construction accounting profit is about, what is the risk free rate in Vietnam, opportunity cost, cost of capital and the various risks involved in the project. It is your duty to evaluate the management is doing the right thing, for you as a minority shareholders. It is not about whether "the management has addressed well through their meeting with PBB analyst". Well, that is what I think, looking at the business sense of it.
If you think your company is taking such a great project with such a great IRR, good on you. Go invest more. Sailang on it. You may soon become very rich.
2017-05-23 16:14
KYY has proved his stock selection LOUSY & TERRIBLE! With the latest result release by Lii Hen, no pleasant surprise at all.
KYY has failed in XinQuan, doing so so at CSCSteel & Lii Hen, remain to be seen at Jaks.
While everyone seem doing very good in 2017, KYY stock selection based on his OLD MAN SENSE was terribly bad!
http://klse.i3investor.com/servlets/pfs/54015.jsp
2017-05-23 17:51
Bitcoin set to record high again!
The best investment that actually make everyone become millionaire
unlike klci which always make people poorer and banker getting richer only
:(
all this value investment is junk
:x
2017-05-24 19:58
The Bitcoin I mined last few years already appreciated by few thousands percent and make nearly one million for me while klci still making loss non stop
Sooner or later I will quit this stupid market and focus on Bitcoin development
:))
2017-05-29 00:29
you know how to mine bit coins? respect.
some say it will be US$ 20,000 in a few years.
2017-05-29 00:55
charles....
Financial tools must be handled with care otherwise it can be very misleading.
a project can give you $ 1000 per annum and yield you an IRR of 12%.
another project can give you $ 100 million per annum and still yield you an IRR of 12%
you will want the $ 100 million p.a. project over the $ 1000 p.a. project if you can get it.
there is some thing fundamentally flawed in maths teacher way of looking at things.
Businessman look at the money, follow the money...be direct about it.
2017-05-29 01:03
Not only I know how to mine it
I am lending it out for some interest income
and the interest income is good
:))
2017-05-29 01:10
Posted by stockmanmy > May 29, 2017 01:03 AM | Report Abuse
a project can give you $ 1000 per annum and yield you an IRR of 12%.
another project can give you $ 100 million per annum and still yield you an IRR of 12%
you will want the $ 100 million p.a. project over the $ 1000 p.a. project if you can get it.
there is some thing fundamentally flawed in maths teacher way of looking at things.
Businessman look at the money, follow the money...be direct about it.
I am an engineer by profession. I am a teacher teaching you this accountant on accounting stuff. But no matter how much i teach you, you just don't get it. And yet you still continue to bark here and there, "tearing your own face". Shame on you!
Let me teach you another accounting lesson.
What is IRR of 12% of your Jaks? Is this an expectation or an outcome?
It is just basing on estimation of future cash flows.
What if there is a financial crisis and banks pull back the credit?
What if Dong, the currency of payment, slumps 30% in the future?
What if the cost overrun by 30% for the power plant?
What if the Chinese partner makan you?
What if the inflation rate goes up to 10% a year?
What if the Vietnamese official ask you to pay more money to him, otherwise this cannot, that cannot?
What if risk free rate goes up to more than 10%?
What if the Vietnamese agency refuse to take your power supply or reduce your rate say if there is no demand for the power?
What if this and what if that?
Those are the risks we are talking about!
The outcome of your IRR, instead of 12%, becomes -10%!
What happen to Mudajaya's power plants in India?
Why was there such a delay?
Wasn't their expected IRR also in the teens?
What happen now?
How much money they have lost?
What is their IRR now? negative 20%?
All the things you talk about dynamite investing, panic moment, sailing, take high risk and sure high return are just talking cock!
Where got business sense? You kidding?
2017-05-29 01:21
Did Bitcoin pay good dividend?
Yes it pay good dividend
refer to this website for a good lock
https://www.poloniexlendingbot.com
this technology will rewrite the rule of investment forever
2017-05-29 01:26
KC and his IRR is old school
Bitcoin and block chains are the real deal.
sounds exciting to me but I too old to learn.
my son is studying CFA
my daughter is studying Big Data and Analytics.
who will have a brighter future?
2017-05-29 01:36
a small project with small capital and decent earnings will give you IRR 12% and $ 1000 p.a.
An US$ 2 billion IPP project with decent earnings will give you an IRR 12% and US$ 100 million p.a. if the capital structure and gearing levels are done right and especially if there is an early recovery US$ 100 million of capital from EPCC...follow the money...details matter.
Good businessman will choose the latter, maths teacher thinks there is equivalence....that is why business man drive Rolls Royce and maths teacher drives what?
2017-05-29 01:49
there are good reasons KYY drive Rolls Royce and raid drives what? Not all luck.....hahahahaha
2017-05-29 11:46
Yeah the future for IT is very bright
I know this guy Vitalik Buterin he is the founder of the software that will change this world how banking operate and rendering all the greedy banker to jobless
He is billionaire by net worth at the time of writing
Also the alpha go success is another mile stone to strengthen the future of IT
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitalik_Buterin
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k0HmrSfJwhU
2017-05-31 11:17
IT is replacing all conventional business operation
They do not need to develop new business
Just replace the existing business with IT
It is very cheap to do so.
2017-05-31 11:55
Big fat frog is now dying on the road, soon it will become fried skinny frog
2017-06-22 23:21
Why need to fear Jaks loh ??
1. Jaks construction, we all know is lousy....bcos they have rm 50 million bank guarantee being called by Star....due to project delay.
2. Vietnam Power plant...Murphy Law
2.1 It suppose to look attractive but they are not generating power yet, the current profit on construction is book entry profit on shiok sendiri accounting entry loh...!!
2.2 Jaks says it has subcontract everything to its china jv partner...but does its partner pay any profit to jaks on the works ??
Answer No loh...!!
2.3. The china construction co quite cunning loh...just look at msia ECRL and Suria fibre....no need to do anything, already draw 70% on value of the project on progress paymment.
Some more all payment are settle in china....how sure r u jaks interest is really secure and protected leh ??
2.4. The vietnam and china govt has always have an uneasy relationship...what if the dispute escalate leh ??
2.5. People is looking at green energy and here u r...with a coal power plant project....what if the vietnam govt slap it with a carbon tax leh ????
3.0 KYY kena force sell....what if another teething problem.......jaks will fall below rm 0.40 loh....!!
Like warren buffet says, do not bet your farmhouse on this dubious project and inefficient management, it is very toxic loh....!!
2018-07-30 11:43
I noticed the bitcoin promoter hilang liao after the price crash WAKAKAKAKA
2019-04-14 08:14
Post a Comment
Featured Posts
MQ Trading Signals
Time
Signal
Duration
Type
2024-04-25 16:50:00
EMA 5
10 Mins
BUY
2024-04-25 16:30:00
EMA 5
5 Mins
BUY
2024-04-25 16:30:00
ADX
5 Mins
BUY
2024-04-25 16:25:00
ADX
5 Mins
SELL
2024-04-25 16:15:00
ADX
5 Mins
BUY
Apps
Top Articles
1
Good Articles to Share
Malaysia in Talks With Tycoons on Casino to Revive $100 Billion Forest City
2
3
4
THE INVESTMENT APPROACH OF CALVIN TAN
5
6
BFM Podcast
7
8
BFM Podcast
#
Stock
Score
Daily Stocks
Stock Name
Last
Change
Volume
Stock Name
Last
Change
Volume
Stock Name
Last
Change
Volume
Featured Advertisers / Partners
Ride The Bull Short The Bear
CS Tan
4.9 / 5.0
This book is the result of the author's many years of experience and observation throughout his 26 years in the stockbroking industry. It was written for general public to learn to invest based on facts and not on fantasies or hearsay....
sunztzhe
Ideas percolate. Through natural selection, the best ones survive.
Andrew Lo
2017-05-22 20:32