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From Graham to Greenblatt kcchongnz

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Publish date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016, 11:38 PM
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This a kcchongnz blog

Posted by murali > Mar 9, 2016 09:36 PM | Report Abuse http://cdn1.i3investor.com/cm/icon/trans16.gif

I think average Joe lose money in stock market...somebody mentioned before 80% investor in the market lose money..dont know how true is it...

The above statement was posted in my recent thread, “When market retreats, Pong Pong Pong again” in the link appended below.

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/92727.jsp

My opinion on the above statement is not far from the truth. However, I would like to replace the phrase “lose money”, with “grossly underperforming the broad market”, as you know, during a bull market, many people make money too, but most of them will lose back more of what they have gained when the market turns the other way. There are numerous academic research showing this phenomenon.

I have analysed and mentioned that the broad market has had a compounded annual return of just 6% over the last 10 years in the link, “Investing and the eighth wonder of the world” below.

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/92412.jsp

  •  

So with such a poor return from the stock market, why would I encourage youngsters to work hard, save and invest in the stock market? Why don’t they just put their money in the bank with an interest rate of 4%, which would most likely beat the performance of an average investor from the stock market, and with little risk?

Here lies the secret which was revealed in my previous thread, “Does fundamental value investing has any predictive power?” in the link below.

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/92580.jsp

 

Value Investing, the era of Benjamin Graham

The link above described some rigorous studies that using value investing such as just buying cheap in any form, be it be low P/B, P/E or P/CF (and also P/D) give better return than the broad markets and with lower risks. The higher return is more pronounced for small market capitalized stocks.

I have also shown the track records of certain school of investors, the school of value investing following the philosophies and methodologies of the grand master of value investing, Benjamin Graham, who had generated annual compounded returns (CAR) of between 18% and 29% over long track records lasting between 13 to 28 years, out-performing the broad market by very wide margins.

A 40-year old who has zero net worth now but can just save RM1000 a month from now on, and increases his saving by 4% a year in accordance to his growth in income, would have accumulated a tidy sum of RM2.7m when he retires in 20 years’ time if he can manage to earn a return of 20% from the stock market, compare to just RM500,000, if he places all his money in the bank, with an interest of 4%.

That is the power of compounding, compounding at a higher return over a long period of time can make a big difference in your retirement sum.

However, the above quantitative strategy is more suitable for fund managers having a lot of money from investors to invest in a diversified basket of tens or hundreds of stocks, such that the expected return likely to be achieved with less risks. Individual investors with less financial resources would have difficulty following those value investing strategies.

The link below explains why using a low P/E investing strategy with a few stocks can have some problems if individual investors do not know enough what the denominator in P/E ratio means; and the E can mean anything from hell to heaven.

The link below explains some problems on E produced in the income statements of some companies.

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/63417.jsp

What can individual investors do? Just forget about investing in the stock market? That would be a mistake as I have shown you the difference in wealth creation from higher compounded growth rate (CAGR), than a lower one as shown above.

Let us go the Joel Greenblatt’s Magic Formula again. I could hear someone shouting, “Magic Formula, not again!” Can’t blame him, as I have talked about this Magic Formula many times, like a broken record.

But you see, even though I have mentioned and explain this Magic Formula many times, I doubt few readers bother about it, and even less understand or care to understand what I was talking about. Can’t blame anybody, because each of us is in his own profession, and you can’t expect he is good at everything, unless he cares about his financial wellbeing in the future. But this is very important in investing, and hence sorry, I will repeat it.

 

From Graham to Greenblatt.

The first thing Greenblatt did in his Magic Formula in value investing is to replace the problematic P/E ratio, which is only relevant to equity shareholders to the equivalent metric of enterprise value/Ebit, or operating income, which is for the whole firm.

 

Why EV/Ebit for the whole firm and not P/E just for the equity shareholders? What are the advantages? Please refer to this link again as it explains in details.

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/63417.jsp

So if low P/E works, low EV/Ebit should work better as explained. Greenblatt reverses this metric to earnings yield, or EY, which is Ebit/EV. It is easier to use this to compare with the return on alternative investments, such as the return from bank interest or bonds, or return of property investment. That is another one up. What next?

Greenblatt, besides looking at cheapness, with his better “cheapness” metric of EY, also looks at the “goodness” of a company; and only buy not only it is cheap, it must also be cheap. How can you go wrong then?

 

How to gauge “goodness” about a company?

What straight come to most retail investors’ mind would be profit and EPS growth, the profit of this quarter must be better than the profit of the next quarter, and so on. But is there really such thing as the profit of the next quarter of a company is always better than the previous quarter? What about seasonality? What about economic cycle, product cycle, business cycle etc.?

This is what Warren Buffett says:

Customarily, most investors measure annual company performance by looking at earnings per share (EPS). Did they increase over last year? Are they high enough to brag about? For his part, Buffett considers EPS a smokescreen. Most companies retain a portion of their previous year's earnings as a way of increasing their equity base, so he sees no reason to get excited about record EPS. There is nothing spectacular about a company that increases EPS by 10%, if at the same time, it is growing its equity base by 10%. That's no different, he explains, from putting money in a savings account and letting the interest accumulate and compound. Worse still, there are many companies borrow huge amount of money to improve EPS, but the marginal return is way below its borrowing costs.

The test of economic performance, he believes, is whether a company achieves a high earnings rate on equity capital ("without undue leverage, accounting gimmickry, etc."), not whether it has consistent gains in EPS. To measure a company's annual performance, Buffett prefers return on equity or ROE. -- The ratio of operating earnings to shareholders' equity
.”

How can a company be good if it has RM100m equity, but earns only RM3m, or just 3% return on its equity? The company might as well liquidate its assets, pay creditors and return the balance money to shareholders so that they can earn better return from somewhere else, even better to put the money in fixed deposit which is close to riskless.

How can a company good if it keeps on collecting money from shareholders with right issues, or “free” warrants and later pay money to convert to underlying share, and with those earn higher profit, but below the cost of its capitals?

Hence a good company is one which return higher than its cost of equity, or a high ROE. If you require a return of 10% investing in a stock of a company, surely you will expect the company to earn a return higher than 10%. Won’t you?

Buy good company with high ROE when it is cheap. Isn’t it better than just buy a good company? So what is the chance that you can you go wrong using this investing strategy?

But ROE also has various problems too as shown in this link.

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/52949.jsp

If investors are not careful, it can divert attention from business fundamentals and lead to nasty surprises. Companies can resort to financial strategies to artificially maintain a healthy ROE, even though operational profitability is eroding, just to keep investors happy.

Greenblatt refine this “goodness” metric with a better one; return on invested capital, or ROIC, the profit for the whole firm with all the capitals employed, from the equity shareholders as well as from the debt holders. It is the effectiveness of the company’s employment of capital.

 

ROIC and EY, are they any use in real life investing?

 

The Magic Formula quantitative investing

In his The Little Book that Beats the Market, Joel Greenblatt, a top-performing hedge fund manager since the 1980s, describes a Magic Formula to beat the market. The secret of his magic formula is actually no magic to it at all. It is basically “a long-term investment strategy designed to buy a group of above-average companies with high ROIC when they are available at below-average prices with high EY” as shown in the link below.

 

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/51631.jsp

 

The Magic formula outperformed S&P500 17 out of the 22 years from 1988 to 2009, and achieved a compounded annual growth of 23.8% as compared to the 9.6% of S&P.

$10000 invested 22 years ago in 1988 has grown to $1.09m by the end of 2009, compared to if invested in the broad market of just $75000 during the same period, even after the US sublime crisis in 2008-2009. This is by no means a small feat.

Don’t always talk about the US market. What is the performance of the principle of Magic Formula in Bursa? Show me your records.

Here I have to use my longest established record in i3investor which was set up on 20 January 2013, named “GE13 Watch” in the link below to illustrate.

http://klse.i3investor.com/servlets/pfs/13147.jsp

 

Performance of GE13 Watch

The portfolio consists of a diversified portfolio of 10 stocks in Consumer Products, Industry Products, Constructions, Property Development, Services, and Technology. The prices are adjusted for all corporate exercises and dividend payments as obtained from Yahoo Finance. They were generally selected from good companies based on high ROIC, and selling cheap with high EY at the time of selection on 20th January 2013 as shown in column 7 and 9 in Table1 in the Appendix.

 During the three years and two months’ period from 20th January 2013 to to-date on 10th March 2016, KLCI only went up by a meagre 3.7% from 1631 to 1691. The Small Cap Index went up much higher by 24.9% during the same period. However, the GE13 Portfolio, went up by an average of 132.7%, or a CAGR of 31% as shown in Table 1, way outperforms both the indices.

All 10 stocks in the portfolio except the only underperformer of Pantech (-6.3%), have positive total returns which varies from the lowest of 4.2% for Plenitude to 502% for Prestariang. The high exceptional performers were, Prestariang (502%), SKP Resources (316%), Pintaras (166%), and NTPM (141%).

The three highest returns companies of Prestariang, SKP Resources and Pintaras were accompanied with highest Magic Formula scores of ROIC and EY.  The worst performer, Pantech, not that bad though at a loss of 6.3%, has the lowest Magic Formula score. How obvious was that.

GE13 Watch is just one of my published portfolios in i3investor. I have two to three portfolios which have done well too, and they are likely to do as well in the long term.

Can the experience of the Magic Formula in US and my personal experience using the financial statements in Bursa be used to counter the argument below?

Posted by PureBULL . > Mar 7, 2016 07:01 AM | Report Abuse http://cdn1.i3investor.com/cm/icon/trans16.gif

It's a game with expiry date. Never spend too much time to analyze their engineered P&L n Cash-flow statements.
Use a simpler n better way to monitor them, like price action theory or weekly candle sticks to determine its trend.

Do you think I should discard my own investing methodologies and strategies which have been proven successful for me and start using other methods?

One of my course participants obviously does not think so as shown below:

 

KC

After more than two months into this course and having read all your postings, I am convinced that fundamental analysis and value investing is the best method that would slowly, safely and surely lead to success and rewards in the long term.

Having done 3 exercises on income statements, balance sheet and cash flow analysis, I can now read and understand your article contributions in i3investor forum and appreciate its values in a more meaningful and joyful way.

Thanks for your reply and the various advisory and investment options you have recommended.

To kick start my investment journey with you, I would like to accept your offer of a portfolio consisting of 10 stocks with detail analysis given progressively within three months. I believe this option suite me best as a beginner. It gives me the opportunity to read and learn from your detail analysis and in the process also enhances my knowledge and develops my skills.

Perhaps, in the days ahead when we know each other better with greater degree of mutual respect and trustworthiness we can then move on further to exploit greater business opportunity on a large scale.

Thanks and regards

 Blank 9/3/16

 

Do you buy my proven successful investment principles and methodologies and wish to learn about it, or may be require my other services?

Please contact me at

ckc14training2@gmail.com

 

K C Chong

 

Appendix

 

Table 1: Return of Magic formula in Bursa

Discussions
2 people like this. Showing 39 of 39 comments

Terry Tan

Very good sharing Mr KcChong. Keep up with the good work!

2016-03-10 23:59

PlsGiveBonus

Too bad the house return is far exceeding klse performance
Klse perform 100-200% over the 20 years, but house price increase over 1000%
Can you imagine 50k banglow house compouding to 5-10millions in value?

2016-03-11 00:27

PlsGiveBonus

And the risk is house is too low compare to diversify in portfolio
Why need to create multiple portfolio and betting one of the portfolio actually perform well?
You don't need to pick so many house just to make over 1000% return

2016-03-11 00:32

PlsGiveBonus

The return of the equity market is too low, it doesn't worth the effort to do it, of course high dividend yield is another story but how many pick actually can give better dividend compare to house? One of the best performing is hapseng if you bought it since last subprime crisis, it will also giving a dividend yield of 12% annual, but at the same time the house price already increase multiple times, and it is the best of all penny stock.

2016-03-11 00:37

spectre007

Dow Jones down... klse tomorrow how ahh?

2016-03-11 00:43

PlsGiveBonus

Any house can outperform the best performing stock in Klse, investing is no brainer decision

2016-03-11 00:44

PlsGiveBonus

Of course it is not easy to buy house when you are poor
But what I see now more and more youngster are readily to afford their first house once they finish their school
Buying house is like shopping for them it is simply affordable.

2016-03-11 00:50

PlsGiveBonus

How many penny stock can actually outperform hapseng?
Basically none of them can do it even if you included MyEG or ifca and any high speculating penny stock cannot come close to it.

2016-03-11 00:53

PlsGiveBonus

We can have Top glove karex supermx Kossan Hartalega to compete but their dividend yield is pathetic as well, if you bought it since subprime crisis it will reward you handsomely

2016-03-11 00:59

PlsGiveBonus

You can only be rewarded handsomely if you can predict the crisis correctly or most of the time a waste of effort to invest.

2016-03-11 01:05

PlsGiveBonus

Why need to learn value investing when the market is always overvalued and only a 1998/2008 can bring them to a fundamentally worth to buy?
Learnt to short this market so the 1998/2008 could repeat itself.
The junk investment is flooding the market now, why not give it a massive cleansing.

2016-03-11 01:13

PlsGiveBonus

Market is about to crash when more quantitative easing and print money couldn't save it, bank will get to taste their own junk strategy, and start to collapse, when the bank start to fall, we would see plenty of junk rate company to be wipe out by the reality.

2016-03-11 01:49

PureBULL .

Hi Guru kcchongnz ,
Wow u quoted my name.
That means u also peek into my stuff. TQ GURU.
Fully agreed with u, stick to whatever u know that works, esp for yourself.

All sport coaches' famous lecture :
Know your weak pts n turn them into your strong pts.
Your own Strong pt will take care of itself.

My advice to a newbie who asked me;
PureBULL . > Mar 9, 2016 10:21 AM | Report Abuse X

Dear Yen Leng,
U r not my sis-in-law. r u?
I strongly believe for somebody new or old to stock mkt to have a good foundation n grounding on FA.
U must know what drives up stock prices.
We have a few FA taiko on board i3.
I recommend u seek knowledge with Guru kcchongnz. He's very hard working n a great teacher. Highly qualified financial pro with 2 uni degrees n more n also graduate from school of hard knocks.
Best, He will never MIA. U'll learn abt IV, intrinsic value of co. Pls teach me after that.
11/03/2016 01:32

I was FA 1st of course. A true FA indeed. Out of BCT University, I was a Corporate Planning Officer with the most aggressive chinaman banking conglo. as my 1st job n last job. I did many projects on M&A, detail financial n biz feasibility studies, operational audits to advise mgmt co. to increase installed plant capacity n to enhance mkt development n penetration. I do know the very importance of FA to biz future prospect. To do well all stock players need to know.

2016-03-11 02:06

PureBULL .

Mar 11, 2016 03:22 AM | Report Abuse X

Dear PlsGiveBonus ,
U r feeling the heat of the mkt now.
Mkt primary cycle completes n repeats every 6-9 yrs. The last 2 yrs in that giant cycle, stocks never fail to crush then crash.
Signs are clear that next 12 months r hard to go by.
Sifu Icon8888 said he can't understand what I'm writing abt.
I think he's very 'gungho', can still go up one.
But his AIRASIA call is ok, am awaiting at 156.

1 successful financial Jew I learned from, by the name of ____berg.
all berg r Jews, so is kukubird.

He said recently in the net:
2 top lines to drive 2 bottom lines of stocks.

2 TOP
i. Economy, #s
ii. FED, fiscal n monetary policies, also a bit of ECB
r catalysts to
2 BOTTOM
i. Profits, growth then recession of stocks
ii. Cash flow, final problem of many stocks
Any good reports must comprise of combination of the above 4 items. If not then it's for sure a BS report.

2016-03-11 05:00

PlsGiveBonus

Some people need to earn money very urgently
They want to earn until the last day (month) before the market finally fall

2016-03-11 11:18

PlsGiveBonus

May be their commitment is high?
They want to sponsor hundreds of student to enjoy honey moon

2016-03-11 11:19

kcchongnz

Posted by PureBULL . > Mar 11, 2016 02:06 AM | Report Abuse
Hi Guru kcchongnz ,
Wow u quoted my name.
That means u also peek into my stuff. TQ GURU.
Fully agreed with u, stick to whatever u know that works, esp for yourself.
All sport coaches' famous lecture :
Know your weak pts n turn them into your strong pts.
Your own Strong pt will take care of itself.


PureBULL,

I quote you because you are one of the few more respectable gurus here in your own right, although we differ in investment strategy.

It is good to play in our own game. It is good to have a say 58 degree wedge in our golf bad, but it is really not a must and yet still can play a good round of golf.

Thanks for your recommendation for other to learn from me an FA. I never know teaching finance and investment is such a joyful thing to do, besides earning some money.

2016-03-11 13:20

PlsGiveBonus

The problem with the quantitative easing is

1. Market is always illiquid for big stakeholder to move their cash around
2. When quantitative easing kick in, they finally found their hope to dump large quantities of paper asset at the bank
3. Finally the market throw all their junk into the bank
4. Bank cannot afford to give the loan with negative interest rate
5. Market start to crash, the riches has already moved all their stake into money while the poor getting trapped into the market

2016-03-11 13:25

PlsGiveBonus

Every quantitative easing is making more bankruptcy than ever.
The term "easing" only valid to te rich, while the poorer get the taste of the side effect of the easing

2016-03-11 13:27

PlsGiveBonus

What will the rich do with their money?
Park their money on safe heaven asset like
1. Property
2. Gold
3. Food and drink
4. Necessary item

2016-03-11 13:40

PlsGiveBonus

Only the poor go investing in falling market
Why ask the poor get poorer?

2016-03-11 13:52

3iii

Post removed.Why?

2016-03-11 15:25

kcchongnz

Posted by 3iii > Mar 11, 2016 03:25 PM | Report Abuse
KCChong, Thanks for sharing your portfolio and Joel Greenblatt strategy. I noticed your portfolio is concentrated and has been held for 3 years. If I recall Joel Greenblatt's book, he advocated for a diversified portfolio which he rebalanced every year using his strategy. He creamed the stocks in the market (the top 10%) that satisfied his screening criteria of high ROIC (quality) and high EBIT/EV (low priced). Joel Greenblatt might have mentioned that his strategy is based on betting on the overall market and not specific stocks. Would you like to comment to guide our learning? Thanks again.


Greenblatt use his Magic Formula investing (not betting) on stocks (not market) meeting the two criteria. Yes, he was doing quantitative investing in scores of stocks with the top scores in Magic Formula, and as you said, re-balanced them based on the criteria.

This style is more suitable for those harvesters with a lot of money such as fund managers.

As a retail investors with limited financial resources, I am not exactly doing what Greenblatt is doing with his Magic Formula, rather using his principles of the Magic Formula to hunt for some good buys, ie buying good company (with high ROIC)at cheap (high EY) price.

In fact I will add another essential criterion on top of it later.

2016-03-11 16:12

PlsGiveBonus

Any fundamentalist will never tell you anything about market crash,
Because they need to exit it before anyone else.
And they will start to promote their fundamental views while unloading their stakes
Sound like common corporate exercise?
You bet it.
Insider trading is very famous in klse it is proven by sc, it is not my finding.

2016-03-11 17:21

Ah Gan

Kcchong, when you add these stocks into your portfolio, will you consider other factors like forex? oil price? sectors?
or just base on the roic & ev/ebit?
thank you!

2016-03-12 18:26

kcchongnz

Posted by Ah Gan > Mar 12, 2016 06:26 PM | Report Abuse
Kcchong, when you add these stocks into your portfolio, will you consider other factors like forex? oil price? sectors?
or just base on the roic & ev/ebit?
thank you!


Focus on what one can control. Nobody knows exactly what will happen to all those macro thingies next year.

2016-03-12 19:00

PlsGiveBonus

When market is heading for crash
Any fundamental views cannot even worth a penny

2016-03-12 23:28

PlsGiveBonus

Many fundamentalist try to ignore macro econonics views
They are vulnerable to failure
Quantitative easing is the key factor that kill all the fundamental of investment
The riches always can outsmart the poor

The quantitative easing is once introduced to stimulate the market slow down activities, it is first print a lot of money and inject into the market, the injection itself had ruined the market fundamental by destroying it is fair trade principal, it is rigged trades, and the riches find the loophole in this quantitative easing before the poor can realize, they (the riches) can be the first to know when to dispose off their junk investment paper asset at the poor.
What will the riches do with their money after they sold all their stake holding? They can always make another new company and issues more shares, list on the security is very easy to get rich, and the public listing didn't take much effort for the riches, they buy property asset, and flip them like a boss,

2016-03-13 05:52

PlsGiveBonus

If you follow the trend carefully
The property you bought 8 years back now is rewarding you at least 300%
1 milllion property now is being inflated into 3 milllions worth, it is the problem with quantitative easing, they didn't fix the main problem and thus creating another problem, now they still insisted on issuing more of this failure to fix the market, the more quantitative easing, the more likely the rich will withdraw themself from the market, they like to park their cash on safe heaven asset, the poor who still think fundamental works will never get riches.

2016-03-13 05:58

PlsGiveBonus

I found commercial building is the highly inflated of all investment
One commercial property bought at 4 years back now can sell for 300% price marked up, I am calling the flipper to be crazy, but what can you do with them? They are riches and they hire professonal to manipulate this property market, and they got all the fundamental to support their reasonable price marked up.

2016-03-13 06:06

PlsGiveBonus

300% return within four years
It is equal to 30% CAGR for four consecutive year!
Now tell me what is the reason you want to invest in paper asset when you can get high return at almost no risk?
Paper asset has become too expensive to invest!
You need at least 100k to be a starter investor, but you can also use this 100k to buy your first house and get rich like no one else, which idiot in this world will choose the lesser option?

2016-03-13 06:14

PlsGiveBonus

That is why youngster had no idea what is investment
They are delusional about investment
It can't be help since they are too obesed with their fantasy
The only way to help them is teach them with lesson

And for complement, most fundamentalist will also included a list of successful story and chart showing their return from investment "undervalue" paper asset, it is amusing to deal with them, sound like mlm to me.

2016-03-13 11:44

PlsGiveBonus

Well their operandi is as usual quote some famous person with impressive wealth, and tell you must follow them, copy and paste their quote, and boom! Profit!

2016-03-13 11:45

PlsGiveBonus

To teach youngster about investment
I think it should best start with convincing them house is the most rewarding investment in the universe, next will be education and follow by junk paper investment, most of them can easily accumulate 100k in their youth after working for several years, but they had tendency to spend all their wealth on junk that is assumed by someone else as "investment", buy car with cash is the most typical result from youngster, next will be buy phone and another tangible and intangible asset, their investment knowledge is only limited to very small sources, they never believe house is investment, because their friend told them so. Too bad they may end up spending their money on something else more useless when their knowledge is so limited, may be out of 1% of them actually get lucky and treat house as investment? Who know.

2016-03-13 12:30

PlsGiveBonus

Youngster had tendency to contradict themselve as well
They don't like to manage their wealth carefully but depend on someone else to do so
They hire financial planner who is guiding their with their junk products that they don't even understand well, and the planner will use any trick to push their sales so they will convince youngster how can house is not a good investment and their junk is far superior and they even give example of house from poor location and type of property bank value testimonial from their selected few life failures, and then it work like a charm, youngster get into their get rich quick scheme. Once they get into the trap, they keep telling thenselve they can make good money from it, they even try to convince other people into their scam as well, that is irritating to see them doing all this non sense. Why no they just follow the rules?

2016-03-13 12:39

Equityengineer

As if the past generations so called baby boomers never indulge themselves. Baby boomers created all those nonsense to make everything commercial and and make it a business, but claiming that they have done great deed and expect the next gen to follow their footsteps.
Baby Boomers always insulting and self-righteous articles complaining about how “pampered,” “entitled,” and even “narcissistic” they perceive Millennials to be.

2016-03-13 12:57

stockmanmy

they call it the art of investing for a reason.


nobody ever calls it the maths of investing.

2016-03-13 16:04

PlsGiveBonus

Food price increased, flour price increased, milo iced price increased, roti canai price increased, car price increased, and stupid financial planner tell me house price is overvalued and need to be drop. They can only cheat youngster with their unreliable chart, data, info, as long as you have this information, youngster is readily to get cheated.

2016-03-13 21:13

PlsGiveBonus

But they can give some overvalued paper asset at unreasonable high expectation,
Biased analysis existed in every corporate world, the planner themself has no idea how to plan their life, and they only work for their daily pay check, will they care about your life when they are more worried about theirs?
Of course planner is trained to be sweet mouth and talk only what entice their potential client, most of them like to despise property because it is what their client like to heard

2016-03-13 21:20

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