Thanks, passerby. You helped make the decision for me. It's okay even if it were to go up after this. I can live with that - had missed so many others before:-) It's the indecisiveness that really troubles me. Anyway, I think I'm going to just watch and keep the remaining capital for future opportunities.

Dato' Ariff @ Sakmongkol - I know him. Met him in Kota Baru when he came from Kuantan in 2009.

Yeah, I was surprised to see some of the quality counters suddenly clawing back and exceeding yesterday's close. The telcos, SK Petro etc. No sign of that with Sime yet - I'm in a dilemma as to whether to buy the CR at this price or wait. Darn! I hate the indecisiveness.

Those people who were bold enough to bite the bullet and bought the mother or its CWs yesterday must be having a wide smile today. Fortune favours the brave again, although some of the brave who came in a bit early will have to wait a bit more. I was waiting for a lower price and was late in seeing it going up.

Hope this golden cross happens. It went as low as 5.33 earlier but recovered... and is 2 sen in the plus at present. This is encouraging. Many investors are comfortable holding TM but they want to be reasonably sure it has bottomed out first before buying. Another positive end today will really boost sentiments.

0.02 is better than 0.04. Will be in the money if Sime gets to 9.60. Your guess is as good as mine, but I feel it's definitely achievable with a counter like this. However, have to consider the present general market sentiments. It's definitely a bearish trend where low might become lower. At the same time, there's the year-end window-dressing period to consider... if it does happen. And with four months left to the warrants expiry, CR at this price is a reasonable bet.

I'm wondering about the call warrants. Capital reduction, rights etc. don't matter when it concerns the ex price and date, do they? As things now stand with the sharp drop, the ex prices have become further away and look unlikely to strike. But what if the exercise moves fast, with this being completed within a few months? With new capital and assuming the par is still 1.00, MAS would be on a firmer footing when these new shares are put on the market. Would it also mean the share price would be much more than the par... more than the CWs ex prices?

But whatever, it's better to know the details of the exercise first.

Not in December... but if it's 2 Jan 2013, that's almost the same:-)

Just received an alert from Affin about MAS - it's due to a proposed capital restructuring and rights issue.

Some fund manager is obviously offloading it, giving at whatever the buyer wants. Who - EPF?

@maxtew01, Normally they'd also buy back the warrants - the conventional one (with "W" as the prefix) since these are issued by the company concerned. Not the call or put warrants though ("C" and "H").

YTLP looks promising today with this strong start including having the volume. This is especially so given the rest of the market. Just wondering whether it will last.

My gosh!! Why the big drop?? It has just reported a PROFIT!

This looks like an okay counter to TRADE, not invest. If it's the latter, there are many other better companies on BSKL to choose from. The last quarter might be profitable but MAS is still very shaky. However, several times a year, people would feel optimistic about it and feel its share price is "too cheap to resist" and "the bottom has been reached". Inevitably, increased interest and volume, plus the price, beget even more of these and it'd go up. That's the time to cash out and wait for it to slide back before buying again. Repeat this process a few times with this seeming `loser' and you'll make more than a few bucks:-)

I've been sitting still the past few trading sessions, not doing anything. Definitely won't sell the CU at a loss - not when there are so many months left. True, TM might go down further, especially with the market like this. But I believe there would be a limit as to how low the CU would go regardless of this - the expiry date is a strength and most traders are more inclined to wait rather than sell at a loss.

At the same time, I'm not buying more either. Have to be cautious until there's a clearer signal. I'm only checking the market and this forum every few hours so that I won't be influenced by the price movements and `live' comments:-) Have to stick to my own game plan and strategy. By the way, it's okay to add more at a slightly higher price later, IF one is reasonably sure there's an uptrend. In the very short term, it doesn't matter too much even if it goes down. Let the market sort itself out... I'll wait.

Today (Tuesday) was actually good. Been some time since TM's candlestick bar was white:-) It's encouraging to see it bouncing off the day's low and finishing in the plus, especially when most other stocks suffered losses. But this is only one day; we'll have to see how it performs tomorrow. If it's another positive day, then more people will be interested in this counter.

By the way, TM will announce its quarter results on Friday. If there's a rise tomorrow and Thursday, that could be insiders (or their friends) buying in anticipation of positive results.

One doesn't need to be reminded of how bad MAS is as compared to AirAsia. But that's business-wise. For the trader, and when it concerns the "share price" and potential for profits, maybe MAS is safer.

Over the past week, most of the so-called quality counters have been going down and you can't be sure where the bottom is before there's some sort of rebound. But MAS seems very well supported at 1.00. It's ironic that those who had bought MAS at 1.03 or so, despite the small paper loss at the moment, are doing better than those who bought AirAsia, SK Petro or Perisai last week. Who's to say MAS won't up in the next few days?:-)

@afar, With warrants, the time remaining adds value to them. Many if not most traders won't be waiting to cash out at its expiry. Besides the long expiry date, another attraction with CN is the ex price, which is lower than the mother at present. Then the ratio of just 2. However, all of these would be useless if it goes down to OSK's TP... which I don't think will happen unless if there's a market crash or prolonged bearish sentiments. If that's the case, then all other counters will go lower too.

Dave Singh says at 2.99:-P But if you don't think that's likely, maybe it's better to wait until its technical readings turn positive first.

I wasn't aware there's a new call warrant issued by KIBB - JCY-CN:
Exercise Price - 0.60
Ratio - 2:1
Expiry Date: 18/11/13

Now selling at 0.14. This ex price is much more reasonable than the others.

Wisdom from Jim Rogers. The first one about previously being poor - that's me too although I'm not rich yet. Commodities - yes, they are down at the moment. But they are "real, tangible products". And gold - we don't know what's going to happen in the future. The price might look "sky high" now if you compare it to 10 years ago when it was around RM50 per gram. I like the fact that Rogers indirectly admits he doesn't know what the price will be in the future, unlike those who confidently shout and scream "Buy" or "Sell".

Chee Keong Koh, I'm going to check that one too. CIMB Kepong? What a coincidence - my wife previously had an office above it, in between CIMB and Serene Music at Desa Jaya Kepong. This branch is very nice with easy parking. Often, you can park your car directly in front of it.

Adil, by global instruments, do you mean stock markets in other countries and futures markets? Some of them do - Affin, CIMB, OSK are the ones that I'm sure of. With Affin, you need to open another account specifically for these.

@winwinwin, I've been having that "Refresh" trouble since last week. I suspect it has something to do with Java. Previously, I didn't have to refresh because it will automatically do so. The problem most likely isn't limited to just those with Affin but also other investment bank clients who use N2N.

There's also a problem with sorting counters according to volume, name, percentage etc. Only the first screen is correct when it comes to the most active counters. You'd have to scroll screen by screen for all the counters to have their info loaded first before the sorting become accurate. That's tedious and previously unnecessary!

@reyes430 - Thanks for the info about Malacca Securities. I've never even heard of it. Minimum RM8?? WOW! Since it has branches in Subang Jaya and SS2, I'm putting it in my list to also consider.

It's been in a coma for weeks. But maybe there will be renewed interest in it again very soon. The trader might have to wait a bit though. But at the very least, it shouldn't slide down further than where it is now.

Dave Singh does have a few valid points. One of them is that King's sardin is a better buy than Ayam brand. I had always preferred Ayam but one day my wife tried King's and it didn't taste too much different, surprisingly. TC is okay too, but it must be the higher-priced ones. Had also tried the cheaper Tesco house brand but I can't remember how it tasted. Does Carrefour have its own sardin house brand? I just `tembak' above and assumed it does HAHA!

Digi at 3.00...? If you've been in the market or followed it long enough, you'd know this isn't a totally impossible scenario. Or TH Heavy at 5.00. But given the variables as we know them at present, I feel that's very unlikely. If you're going to use only par value and net tangible assets to evaluate a share, then maybe it should be 3.00.

But NTA on its own doesn't move prices and is of use only when a company is going to be liquidated or taken over. If NTA is the prime consideration, then MK Land with its NTA of 0.89, shouldn't be at 0.35. I'd say investors are more concerned with what and how much a company can bring in from its core operations; its profit margin against turnover. Plus its record of dividends and how seeming "safe" it is. I believe there are a lot of very eager buyers waiting to buy it if it goes lower - at present, 4.00 or so is a very, very solid support.

Digi will only go to 3.00 in a market crash or a prolonged bear market. But if these happen, others will be similarly affected too. Including KFima - from 1.87 now to... 0.80 as in February 2010? Hope this does not happen because if it does, Dave Singh will have to downgrade from sardin to ubi kayu:-)

Please don't disturb Dave Singh - he's busy preparing dinner-cum-supper... rice and sardin goreng. For tea, he had roti goreng sardin; lunch - sardin straight from the can; breakfast - sardin sandwich. Definitely not Ayam brand because it's too expensive, as he had said. King's brand from KFima? No, cannot! He now uses Carrefour/Tesco house brands when they are on offer - the ones packed in plastic. Dave has to economize... because his money `sangkut' with those KFima buys HAHA!

KC Loh, yes it is. Because I don't know what to say really. Anyway, Digi is a good counter to buy. "When" is the issue, of course. Bargain hunters and value investors might feel now could be a good time and that it should rebound soon. Maybe they're right.

But the charts don't look encouraging. A technical rebound next week is possible but how far will it go? Would a potential gain of 5-10 sen justify the risk? From my reading of the one-year chart, Digi's last uptrend was very neat - a technical analyst's textbook signal. For all you know, it could have been self-fulfilling - since everybody said "Breakout" - and bought - Digi inevitably went up.

Anyway, the 20-, 50- and 100-day moving averages converged at the end of May 2012 - buying on 31/5 at 4.00 when it went above the 100-day MA would have been a great buy.

At present it is below all three moving averages. With a counter like this, maybe it's better to wait for at least one positive technical reading to appear first before we start to buy.

With Digi, many failed to sell earlier at 5.40 or so because of this assumption - that institutions would hold until at least 8 Nov. because they want to collect the 12 sen dividend. Turned out to be incorrect. Apparently, those funds that had bought from early September, and especially earlier, were more than satisfied with the capital gains which they had gotten since then - around 60 sen (Buy 4.80, Sell 5.40). They were willing to forsake the 12 sen to lock in the much bigger capital gains.

This is one of a few lessons that we can learn from the recent Digi episode: due to volatility in the markets, including BSKL, Buy & Hold might no longer be valid with most counters. If something of Digi's quality can slide like this, what about lesser counters? My strategy now is "Hit & Run" - when there's reasonable profit, rather than waiting, I'd prefer to cash out and move to something else.

Digi will most probably rise again but wouldn't it be better to sell it at a high price, buy again when it's "cheap enough" (whatever it may be) and repeat the process whenever there's the opportunity? Smaller profits, when repeated and repeated, will add up over time.

I don't really know how to specifically answer the question. So I'll just write what's on my mind about Digi's price movements. For one thing, different people have different preferences and bias when it comes to deciding whether a counter's price is cheap, reasonable or pricey. The easiest (and laziest) way is to use a combination of PER and the dividend yield with a price movement chart that covers, say, five years or so. We can use the mean average as a point to compare where the current price is at to decide whether it's cheap (which means our entry point) or expensive (sell or don't buy).

Predicting the future price - this is the most difficult part because we simply don't know how the variables are going to change and by how much. And that's for the KNOWN variables - there are some things that we simply don't even know about until they happen.

For instance, we might know "something" about the Euro situation, the US debt, China's economy which is said to be slowing down etc. and thereby TRY to quantify the various possible scenarios that might happen. But what about something like this: a natural disaster on a global or at least continental scale?... solar flare that knocks out various telecommunications and power systems, and severely disrupting basic daily activities? In such a situation, whatever previous projections and predictions on things like PER, technical analysis etc. become essentially useless.

This is an extreme variable, of course. But something not impossible. My point is this - we can only project and predict up to a certain point and level only.

I'm with Affin and thinking about opening another account. Affin's rate of 0.42% (online trading) is okay but the minimum is RM28. JF Apex as mentioned by @Thiban, with its minimum RM12 looks very attractive.

I'm also evaluating things like the resources provided. Affin uses the N2N system which is okay enough I guess. But N2N sucks when it comes to the technical analysis charts - the ones provided are too barebones.

It's always a risk when we participate in the market regardless of the quality and potential of counter and whatever the technical analysis charts may say. There are variables which we simply don't have any means to quantify. Fundamental, TA or whatever, there's always the possibility things won't go as we project now. If one is terribly fearful about making losses and simply can't accept losing money, the best way is to just keep it in the bank.

For the rest of us, since we want to TRY and make profits from the market, we HAVE to take risks knowing that there's the possibility we might lose some of it should things not work out. "Managing the risks" is the best that we can do and we should have a syatem that we're comfortable with.

My general strategy is this: no matter how convinced I am of a counter, I'd never stake everything in a "Win or die" trade. I must ensure that, should it not work out, I will just be "stung" or at worst, "hurt". But I will definitely be able to live and fight another day.

When I like a counter but am not sure whether a certain time and price are right to buy - there's the possibility if I don't buy, it might go up in the near future. On the other hand, if I buy and it goes down, I'll feel like an idiot... not to mention having my capital stuck. So what to do to overcome this dilemma?

One way is a form of hedging: use a certain percentage on the planned capital - maybe one-third - to buy the counter. This way, if it does immediately go up, I'll benefit since I already have a position. I might use another one-third or even all to buy more if I feel the counter has the strength to rise further.

If the counter goes down, tough. But at least I still have the remaining two-thirds of the planned capital. That means I have the ability to average up at a certain price. Having this resource and power gives one power and choices.

This strategy has worked for me a number of times in the past. With SKPetro, for example, after its merger. Everyone knows it is a quality counter. But many didn't buy when it slid to below 2.00, fearful it might go lower. I went in at 1.96, using only one-third of the planned capital. Would have bought more had it gone down significantly lower than that - maybe at 1.80 or so. But the lowest was 1.92... and then it went up. I benefited because I had a position. Might not have gotten as much profit compared to if I had used all to buy. But that's okay because I still got something. One-third of a cake is better than none.

It's the same with TM or TM-CU, whatever it may be. No one can deny that it's a quality counter and the price is now "reasonable" as compared to what it was some weeks ago. But how do we *really* know it has bottomed and will go up again? WE DON'T. That's why I'm being cautious and using this form of hedging. With CU, I've decided to use only one-third of the planned capital for now. This way, if it gets lower, I will have the choice of whether to average up or to just wait some more. "Choice" is power.

Actually I already have Dialog:-)
JCY's warrants - only CF looks remotely probable to strike. But at 1.22 compared to JCY's price now and the time remaining, it's going to be very very tough. If one is a cowboy, he can try. After all, it's just a question of sentiment and momentum, as seen recently. 0.015-->goes to 0.03 - that's 100%!... IF others chase it. But if they think "No hope to strike" and no one willing to take over, then it might be 100% loss. Me, tak berani la.

So we're in the same boat then:-) Consider these before you make a decision:
1) it might be too early and the price too low to average up.
2) if the mother's downtrend continues, the CU might possibly go even lower. So why not buy later to average up, whenever that may be?

"But what if it goes up?" --- Well, that's a good thing, isn't it?...because you already have the CU at 0.04.

Given the general market currently, maybe it's better to be more prudent. That doesn't mean stay away from the market - just to be more cautious. Like buying only half of what you had intended to buy to hedge: if the price goes up, we'll still get something. If it goes down, we still have the remaining capital to either average up or to buy something else or to just sit and wait.

I came in a bit too early again, with CU at 0.04. Looks like I'll have to become `a forced investor'. One consolation is its long expiry date. Don't want to recommend either buying or not buying it. But at the very least, buying at 0.035 is better than my 0.04:-P

I wouldn't dare to recommend anything - it's dangerous and of no benefit to me, especially if things don't work out. BUT since you asked... watch YTL Power, among others. If it has reached the bottom, and really rebounding, this might be worth investing in. Today's Friday and I normally don't buy anything on this day. That's because we don't know what might happen during the weekend. Kena sekali - that time of the JP Morgan thing some months ago where the US drop then affected us too the following Monday. Might have to pay a bit more next week, but I'd consider that as "insurance premium" for not having to hold over the weekend.

CIMB and Affin both came up with "Buy" calls today. YTLP no doubt is a quality counter. The only question is, has the bottom been reached and that this is a genuine rebound?

@kclee, No, it's definitely not useless. Like it or not, people *are* influenced by their reports, just like they are with those written by journalists. These people are regarded as experts in their fields. Unfortunately, they are not all alike - some are better than others. And some might have hidden motives. But fortunately, we now have the internet and forums like this - analysts, journalists and the likes no longer have a monopoly on opinions. We must have a critical mind and not be afraid to explore the various possibilities and angles.

@buybackma, You very suspicious mind, ya:-) And that's what I was thinking too. This is not an accusation, so OSK please don't marah ye. But you have to think up of every possibilities.

The very first trade yesterday - very heavy lots were given away... at 5 sen lower than the previous day's close. Percentage-wise, that's very low. WHY SO MUCH and SO FAST?? Okay, so people were worried after learning about JCY's latest quarter. But is it that bad? It wasn't even a loss! Other company sometimes report something similar. But did they suffer a start like that?

Someone might have intentionally started a panic by those first heavy trades, knowing that it would induce contra players to head for the exit and thereby bring a crash. The authorities should investigate this one, at least: Who made that transaction and from where? What if it's from OSK? Wouldn't that be grounds to launch a deeper and wider investigation?

That's exactly the point! Companies are created to MAKE PROFITS. And when one does that, and is projected to continue doing so plus at a more than reasonable rate, why should it be downgraded to so low and so harshly?! This is my issue with the OSK analyst - they do have some influence on investors and the market and therefore must face greater scrutiny. We are talking about real money here; of people losing money because some analyst added fuel to a fire. The question is, was it intentional and with hidden motives?

Another questionable entry in the OSK report: It forecasts EPS of 7.7 sen and 7.4 sen for 2013 and 2014.

Since JCY is still going to make a PROFIT, why such a low TP?? Par value of 0.25 and earning 0.077 - that's the equivalent of a 1.00 par company earning 30 sen per share. How many are managing that? As a general rule of thumb, its share price should be around 2.50-3.00. With a 25 sen par, that should be 0.625-0.75. And we haven't taken dividends into account yet!

Treat this OSK report with caution. It's either one of three things:
1) The analyst is a true-blue stockmarket genius, OR
2) He has hidden and deceitful interests and motives, OR
3) He's actually a numskull masquerading as an analyst who should be writing advertisement stickers for the Alongs instead.

What a great resource i3investor is! Here's the link to the OSK report: "JCY International - Time to Let go"
http://klse.i3investor.com/servlets/ptres/11931.jsp

Among other things, it says "JCY's FY12 results were disappointing, as its full-year core earnings only made up 83%/87% of our/consensus forecasts." <--- A 17% shortfall in earnings forecast means... JCY should be only 0.35?!

@Fat Cat, the problem is people do give a lot of attention and make decisions based on these analysts' reports. And the media too would use these to write their articles or at the very least repeat what these analysts had said. These reports can be useful, and some analysts have gotten things right at times. So, which analysts and IBs do we follow and who should we look upon with suspicion?

Maybe someone or group should start a site or page where we can track the accuracy of these reports and highlight how right or wrong they have been. This forum can be such a place because we have links to various past reports by them. We should try separate the consistently good ones from those who should be working in some other line of work.

By the way, my comments here should not be taken to mean that I'm saying "Hold or buy JCY because it should rebound soon." Or "Sell now to cut loss because it looks like going down further." I don't have any opinion about its price at the moment because I'm surprised by it all. My focus right now is solely on OSK and its manner with the TP.

If any of you guys are holding JCY, it's best that you make your own decisions. It's very easy for others to say "Cut loss" or "Hold" or whatever. But only those in a similar situation will understand that undecided feeling inside with whatever decision that's made. All of us would have been in this situation - Sell to cut loss... and then the price rebounds. Or hold, only to see it sliding further. That's the dilemma.

I've looked at the price movement and transactions from the start of trading today, trying to visualise what I would have done. Actually I was only able to follow the market at 11am and so had missed the start.

In retrospect, anyone could sagely offer this `advice' of "You should have cut loss early on." How was the trader to know what was to follow??

Notice the huge deviation between this OSK analyst and the other IBs. If it does drop to 0.35, then one thing will be proven - that this guy is a true stockmarket genius who should also be crowned as "The King of Analysts". The least that I can do during his coronation is my "Run to The Curve and Jumping Jacks" as punishment and atonement in not recognising the glorious being that he is.

With these analysts, conveniently, they often do not provide any timeframe. It's like giving a TP of 4.50 for Bumi Armada, for instance (now 3.89). It goes to that... five years later in 2017. And that after ups and downs with a low of 2.50 somewhere along the way. If you put in enough years, any TP of whatever counter is bound to be correct eventually. That's why I had stated JCY *might* be 0.10. Or AirAsia 0.60, Nestle 2.50, TH Heavy 5.00, Mudajaya 8.00, Perisai 6.00... without things like bonus issues, splits, capital reductions, consolidation etc. "TIME"...

Back to OSK's TP - Is it saying that the price will be downhill all the way to 0.35? I'm not totally rejecting this figure "over time". But what if there's a significant rebound along the way?...that it gets to 0.80 or more in the next few months? Where does that leave investors who sell tomorrow at 0.70 "to cut loss", as OSK wants them to do, with its scary TP?

I don't gain or lose anything from JCY because I don't have it. However, I'm really displeased with how the analyst arrives at the TP figure. Hopefully someone can provide a link to this full report so that we can understand better.

KC Loh, JCY might even go to 0.10 for all you know. Not impossible, if the troubles in Europe and the US debt worsens and a worldwide depression follows. But the point here is that let whatever due course follow first. How did the OSK fellow arrive at the 0.35 figure? Why not see how it fares at its immediate supports of 0.67 and then 0.64 first?

If these support levels hold, I'm willing to increase my stake - not only will I run naked to The Curve, I will also do jumping jacks in front of IKEA. On OSK's part, if JCY doesn't get to 0.35, please convert its branches into cybercafes or sell budu and tempoyak there instead. It just doesn't have it to be involved in the stockmarket.

So that explains why the price around the Subang Bestari area is high! Some of the houses are very nice, especially the three-storey ones. But I feel the asking price in the secondary market is too much - many are just a bit cheaper than in Kota Damansara. Yes, it will be like KD eventually but that will take some years yet. These speculators seem to be jumping the gun, assuming that things will roll on sweetly forever as it has over the past few years or so.

Not too familiar with this particular area - I'm often at the other side near to Mah Sing's upcoming Star Avenue and Subang Bestari. But you are right about the value of properties at the Subang Permai area. For one thing, it's closer to KL. The more important factor is its proximity to Guthrie Corridor.

This is one thing that I've realised and accepted of life in the Klang Valley: tolls are a way of life and, instead of fuming about paying, it's much better to accept it as part of one's regular monthly expenditure like electricity etc. and make allocations for it. Should I have the means to buy my own house here, it must be somewhere that's near to a toll entrance/exit.

You guys who have lived here for years and years might not realise it, but for me the road system here is good. Yes, it would be great if using these expressways is free. But we have to accept the fact that it costs a lot of money to build them and the people who risk their capital have the right to make reasonable profits.

Anyway, that's the key factor for me - easy access to the nearest expressway. Plus security.

@mictkp, As I had commented earlier, I think it's because the contra players panicked and this set about a chain reaction. This is especially so with those who had bought on Monday and Tuesday when they see the price rising and the technical readings being positive.

Some of them might not have enough capital to pick up their purchases after the contra period. They might have been ready for a possible loss of a couple of sen. However, nobody anticipated the swiftness of things and the sharpness of the slide. Inevitably, many panicked and rushed to cut loss "before it gets worse". This is the danger of over-extending yourself - you have very few options.

I think there's nasi dagang by a few traders around the Section 6 apartments - stalls by the roadside. But this particular area is somewhat rather messy and a bit chaotic. My wife's favourite is a Kelantan-owned restaurant in Bandar Pinggiran Subang (also known as "Subang 2"): Mak Uda Selera Timur https://foursquare.com/v/mak-uda-selera-timur/4bea47cb62c0c92839b6e0d4 This place is packed with people during breakfast and lunch

One easy way is to look at the weekly PE ratio, Dividend yield and Net Tangible Asset of different counters, plus the one-year high and low. This info is in The Star on Saturdays. Try find the price range over a longer period - five years would be good. That's how I came across and decided on Scomi Group when it was at 0.215, among others.

Another method is through this forum itself. Often, you'd get alerted to some potential counter. See the comments and then decide whether the stated counters might be a good investment. This is one of the reasons why I come here regularly - a lot of information and good opinions.

That's my logic too. Banking on the oversold position to result in a rebound, no matter how mild. The main worry is this - if it breaks below it's support, it will likely go on a downtrend and the -CU will go lower, of course. Well, have to take the risk if one wants to try make a profit.