Posted by kancs3118 > 2017-05-23 16:25 | Report Abuse

Hahaha ....Symlife 25% net profit margins....please wake up

Posted by darrenliew > 2017-05-24 09:42 | Report Abuse

RE-POSTING OF A 2015 REPORT (FOLLOWED BY A REVIEW)
Friday, 11 September 2015
Symphony Life - A deeper look into its deep value
SYMPHONY LIFE BHD
A deeper look into its deep value


Main highlights:
Based on my assumptions and rough estimates, fully diluted RNAV is RM4.34. Applying a conservative 50% discount, the stock has a fair value of RM2.17.
Symlife should start to progressively reflect its true value after FY16 in view of two positive catalysts in 2017-18.
Main catalyst will be the announcement of the Sg. Long land development's launch (slated for 2017/18). If valued at RM50 psf, the Sg. Long land is worth RM900mil (3.9x market cap). GDV for this development was previously estimated at RM8bn (>30x market cap).
The other catalyst will be a jump in profits (and as a result probably higher dividends) driven by its record high unbilled sales of over RM700mil (about 2.5x FY15 revenue). Upcoming/future launches of around RM2bn in GDV (excluding Sg. Long development and ongoing projects) to support earnings.
Despite the subdued property market, Symlife's high-end projects (first phase of Star Residences and TWY) achieved high take-up rates of more than 80%.


The delay of the Sungai Long development and management's guidance for lower sales in FY16 may come as a disappointment to some who follow Symphony Life (Symlife) closely.

But for some investors who are more forward looking, Symlife still remains an attractive property stock to be invested in.

After FYE Mar 2016, about 7 months from now, the stock could start to progressively reflect its true/intrinsic value, in view of the positive catalysts that's about to come in 2017-18.

The main catalyst would be the announcement of the Sg. Long development's launch (which should draw interest of institutional investors to the stock).

The other catalyst would be a jump in profits (and as a result, probably higher dividends) driven by unbilled sales of over RM700mil (the highest ever recorded by Symlife; ~2.5x FY15 revenue).

Much of this sales weren’t reflected in recent quarters and won’t be in the remaining ones of FY16 because Symlife’s recent launches were mostly high rise developments which construction works are now only at the foundation level.

As profits are recognized using the stage of completion method, the bulk of the unbilled sales will only be recognized at further stages of the developments' construction, from FY17 onwards.

Sg. Long development – the main catalyst

The Sg. Long development is now slated to be launched in 2017/2018. The land area for development has now been reduced to 400 acres after around 20 acres was acquired for the EKVE.

With less land, the previously estimated GDV of RM8bn should also be lower now. If we assume a proportional GDV to land area decrease, the GDV would be roughly 5% (20/420 acres) lower at RM7.6bn (but still over 30x Symlife's current market cap)

On the bright side, the EKVE cutting through the development could serve as a positive due to better accessibility/connectivity

Figure 1: Information on the Sg. Long land

Source: Symlife’s IMTN Programme Information Memorandum (dated 16 May 2013)

Location of the Sg. Long land

From the info memo (Figure 1), location details are:

To the south of the Sg. Long land:
- Bandar Mahkota Cheras
- Bandar Sungai Long
- Taman Cheras Vista
- Taman Vista
- Taman Desa Budiman

To the north of the Sg. Long land:
- Taman Bukit Sekawan
- Taman Sri Nanding
- Taman Cempaka
- Taman Perkasa
- Taman Dusun Nanding
- Kampung Sungai Serai

Posted by kancs3118 > 2017-05-24 09:44 | Report Abuse

Why dropping ?

Posted by darrenliew > 2017-05-24 09:44 | Report Abuse

The location looks about right judging from the quarry terrain (currently the land is being used for quarry operations, Symlife in FY12 paid about RM143mil to extend the lease of the land to 99 years and to convert the land status to make it ready for property development).

Potential value

Since the land is close to Bandar Sungai Long, which was developed by SHL Consolidated Bhd, land prices in that area could serve as a good indication to what Symlife's Sg. Long land is worth.

PublicInvest Research, in a non-rated report on SHL, indicated the market value/price of land in Bandar Sg. Long was RM130 per sq ft. (The report can be found here on bursamarketplace.com)

Figure 3: Extracts from PublicInvest Research report on SHL

Posted by darrenliew > 2017-05-24 09:47 | Report Abuse

Source: PublicInvest Research non-rated report on SHL (dated 22 Jul 2014)

If we use the RM130 psf as guidance, Symlife’s 400-acre (17,424,000 sq ft) land could be worth RM2.27bn, or about RM7.30 per share.

In a July 2015 article by The Edge Property on Bandar Sungai Long (link to article), there was a mention that “the value of residential land in the township is between RM150 and RM300 psf now.”

Another way I would value the land is to use the NPV method.

As a rough estimate, if we evenly spread out the RM7.6bn GDV over a 10 year development period (RM760mil/year), assume net margins of 20% (net profit of RM152mil/year), use a WACC of 11%, we would get an NPV of RM895mil, which comes to about RM51 psf. Based on this, the land is worth RM2.89 per share.

Potential value of Symlife stock

Many of Symlife's properties have not been revalued for some time and hence are carried at low net book values (see Figure 4).

Figure 4: Properties owned by Symphony Life

Source: Company annual report

What could Symlife's RNAV be if we were to value the properties at current market prices?

For my own entertainment, I made some guesstimates to the values of the properties to see what RNAV Symlife could potentially have (see Figure 5). Note that these are just my own estimates and not the market prices. I feel my estimates are conservative, but actual market prices could be lower or higher.

Figure 5: Hypothetical revaluation of Symphony Life properties

Posted by darrenliew > 2017-05-24 09:57 | Report Abuse

*Based on my own assumptions/estimates.
**Based on my own assumptions/estimates.

Assuming full conversion of the warrants, I arrived at a fully diluted RNAV per share of RM4.34***. Based on this figure, Symlife shares (at RM0.755) are trading at a discount of 83% to its FD RNAV.

(***Updated 13 Sep 2015: lowered from RM4.75 after some tweaking – no surplus for properties not for development)

Note: For recently added properties, I used back the same net book values. Some of the properties could be under a subsidiary which is not wholly-owned, so Symlife's effective ownership of the properties could be less than 100% and if so should account for less in the RNAV. But most importantly, the Sg. Long land is definitely 100%-owned by Symlife. For the Sg. Long land, I should be using 400 acres instead of 420 acres (I don't know what price the 20 acres will be acquired for), but for the sake of convenience, I'm following the acreage as per annual report.

I also have not included some active developments which lands are not owned by Symlife. Including the DCFs from these projects would increase the RNAV. E.g., Star Residences was not included in the RNAV. This 50:50 JV project has a GDV of RM2.8bn and a 6-year development period. As a rough estimate, if we assume net margins of 20%, use a discount rate of 11%, the NPV would be about RM395mil. Symlife's 50% stake of this would then be worth RM197.5mil or RM0.47 per share (fully diluted).

What would be an appropriate discount to RNAV?

I believe Symlife should trade at a discount to RNAV similar to smaller cap property stocks that are more toward the affordable to mid-market segment. Property players in this segment are less affected by the current property market slowdown.

My rationale for this is that the Sg. Long development, once launched, will be more toward the mid-market segment; the development should also make up most of Symlife’s GDV in the future.

Given the location and target market of the Sg. Long development, there shouldn’t be concerns of oversupply or over competition, unlike regions such as Iskandar Malaysia now.

Market sentiment toward affordable to mid-market housing developers that don’t have heavy exposure to the Johor market seems to be relatively more favourable (in terms of discount to RNAV) than those that do.

As a benchmark, Hua Yang, with a market cap of about RM486mil, is currently trading at 48% discount to RNAV*. Hua Yang's dividend yields are close to 7% and its net gearing levels are ~0.6x. Matrix Concepts (~RM1.3bn market cap) is trading at 34% discount to its FD RNAV*. Matrix's DY is ~6%, while net gearing is relatively lower at ~0.1x. (*based on Kenanga Research's RNAV estimates). Both trade above book value.

Symlife has a market cap of ~RM230mil. Its net gearing is 0.4x, DY ~6.6%, and its stock trades at less than 0.4x P/BV currently.

It is also worth noting that while many developer’s high-end projects are experiencing poor take up rates, Symlife’s higher-end projects such as its TWY@Mont Kiara and Star Residences in the KLCC area have achieved good take-up rates of more than 80%.

In my view, for Symlife shares to trade at 50% discount or less to its RNAV would be fair and reasonable.

Posted by darrenliew > 2017-05-24 09:59 | Report Abuse

Future/upcoming launches

Tijani Signal Hill, Kota Kinabalu (est. GDV RM450mil)
10-acre JV development located in the prestigious Signal Hill area of Kota Kinabalu
Two towers of condominiums of various sizes and 12 units of 3-storey landed luxury villas.
Expect to be able to launch in 1H16. Phase 1 GDV RM150mil.
51% stake via Brilliant Armada Sdn Bhd.

Sunway (est. GDV RM400mil)
On a 2-acre land adjacent to the Sunway South Quay development.
About 600 mainly small unit apartments targeted for students, parents of students and investors due to its proximity to several established universities and medical centres.

Subang Airport Road, Subang (est. GDV RM200mil)
JV project arising from the purchase of 3.2-acre land from Kwasaland by the landowner and is part of the huge RRI land development.
Mixed development concept with retail and residential components that is expected to do well due to its visibility along Jalan Lapangan Terbang Subang.
51% stake via Vital Capacity Sdn Bhd.

Mont Kiara 2, Kuala Lumpur (est. GDV RM400mil)
On 2.2-acre of land located across Jalan Segambut from TWY@Mont Kiara.
Concept will be different from TWY@Mont Kiara but will continue to include innovative features that would differentiate its product in this mature location.

Section U10, Shah Alam (est. GDV RM300mil)
JV project located within a rapidly growing corridor along the Shah Alam-Batu Arang highway with notable developments such as Sunway Alam Suria, Cahaya SPK and Nusa Rhu in its immediate vicinity.
The 25-acre residential development will consist of 444 units of townhouses and terrace houses.
3 years development period.

51G, Kuala Lumpur (est. GDV RM360mil)
On 1-acre land at Persiaran Gurney.
Luxurious condominium project with a private car port in each of its 71 units and a 26-feet wide driveway on each floor which enables residents to drive into their units.
50% stake via 51G Development Sdn Bhd.

* * * * * * * * *

"Despite the challenges, through a combination of innovative products that created some excitement in an otherwise subdued market and competitive pricing, we recorded our highest ever sales of just over RM700 million for the financial year ended 31 March 2015 (FY2015). This has built a solid foundation of unbilled sales that will contribute positively to future earnings of the Group."
– Symphony Life 2015 Annual Report

Posted by darrenliew > 2017-05-24 10:18 | Report Abuse

REVIEW & UPDATING

SYMLIF'S UNBILLED SALES CITED IN THE ABOVE REPORT WAS ONLY RM700M.
THIS HAD NOW GROWN TO AT LEAST RM1.5B AND APPROCHING A PROSPECTIVE RM2B. CLEAR VISIBILITY POINTING TO ROBUST GROWTH IN REVENUES, PROFITS AND GOOD CASH FLOWS FOR MANY YEARS GOING FORWARD. THE STRONG UPTREND IN ITS PROFITS ALREADY SEN IN ITS 9M PROFITS JUMPING UP BY 378% (FROM 4.2M TO 20M). ITS 3Q PROFIT WAS MORE IMPRESSIVE (UP 553% (9.8M AGST 1.5M PREVIOUSLY)
STRONG PROFIT GROWTH WILL PROPEL ITS SHARE PRICE UP TO NEARER ITS INTRINSIC FUNDAMENTAL VALUE.

SYMLIFE'S CURRENT SHARE PRICE AT 1.05 IS DEEPLY UNDERVALUED/UNDERPRICED AS INDICATED BY THE FOLLOWING COMPARITIVE PRICE TO BOOK RATIOS(P/B)

SHARE PRICE NTA P/B
SYMLIFE 1.05 2.12 0.49x
MALTON 1.55 1.65 0.94x
IWCITY 1.81 0.81 2.2x
ECOWLD 1.62 1.42 1.1x
WCT 2.27 2.19 1.0x
LBS 2.06 1.73 1.2x

THE NEXT BIG CATALYST (ITS SG LONG 400 ACRES REVALUATION AND DEVELOPMENT)

ITS BOOK VALUE (PER ANNUAL REPORT/ACCOUNTS) IS ONLY RM8 PSF

Posted by darrenliew > 2017-05-24 10:44 | Report Abuse

THE ABOVE REPORT HAD COMPUTED SYMLIFE'S RNAV AT RM4.34

IF DISCOUNTED AT A REASONABLE 50%, SYMLIFE'S TRUE/INTRINSIC VALUE WILL BE RM2.17.

THE 2 MAIN CATALYSTS TO PROPEL ITS SHARE PRICE UP TO ITS INTRINSIC FUNDAMENTAL VALUE OF RM2.17 ARE STATED ABOVE

Posted by Skng Keong > 2017-05-24 11:14 | Report Abuse

If d counter is good dont need 2 explian so much, as i know all r old story repeat...

Posted by darrenliew > 2017-05-24 14:11 | Report Abuse

ITS ONLY FAIR TO NOTE THAT SYMLIFE'S FUNDAMENTALS HAD IMPROVED SIGNIFICANTLY SINCE THE COMPREHENSIVE ANALYSIS WAS POSTED BACK IN 2015

Posted by darrenliew > 2017-05-24 14:50 | Report Abuse

NOTEWORTHY IMPROVEMENTS INCLUDE ITS UNBILLED SALES HAD INCREASED TREMENDOUSLY FROM RM700M TO A PROSPECTIVE RM2000M (2B). THIS IS GHE MAIN SOURCE OF REVENUES AND PROFITS AS THESE BECOMES PROGRESSIVELY COLLECTED UPON THE COMPLETION OF EACH STAGE OF CONSTRUCTION.
RM2B IS HUGE WHEN U COMPARE SYMLIFE'S PAID UP CAPITAL IS ONLY 310 SHARES AN D ITS MARKET CAPITALISATION IS ONLY RM319M

THIS BIG UNBILLED SALES WILL ENSURE ITS SEQUENTIAL QUARTERLY PROFITS WILL CONTINUE TO GROW STRONGLY.

WE CAN EXPECT ITS DIVIDENDS TO ALSO INCREASE IN TANTUM

Posted by darrenliew > 2017-05-24 15:40 | Report Abuse

IN TANDEM (TOGETHER)

Posted by kancs3118 > 2017-05-24 17:35 | Report Abuse

Let us keep this story real short and sweet. Let us forget about Sungai Long and all the other projects in the pipeline. We just focus on today - on the projects that they are currently selling - which is TWY, STAR and Union Suites.

If I can explain this to a 5 year-old, then my story is sound and good. Story has it that Steve Jobs just threw the iPhone to a kid and the kid immediately knows how to use it.

We don't need all the marketing mumbo jumbo.

My TP is RM1.50. How I got this magic number? I don't know what is RNAV and don't bother to use it. I just stick with simple PE.

RM'Million --------------------------> Remarks
Unbilled sales $2,000.00 ------------------> 1
x net profit margin of 15% ------------------> 2
Net profit $300.00
Divide by 3 years $100.00 ------------------> 3
Shares outstanding 310.00 ------------------> 4
Net profit per share $0.32
Assuming if PE is 5 ------------------> 5
TP = $1.61

Remarks:
1 RM2B unbilled sales is attainable assuming if Union Suites is a sell out. That is why I keep stressing on Union Suites. TWY and STAR is considered done deal.
2 Using a mixture of high gross profit margin project such as STAR vs lower gross margin project such as TWY (since they bought landbank for TWY at market price)
3 Why 3 years? Because Star project is expected to be completed by 2019/2020 and this has not even factor in the fact that construction is ahead of schedule
4 Actually, shares outstanding is lower because of shares buyback from the company and ESTS
5 Why 5? Because I rank Symlife as an underdog - boring and dead company that no one bothers to dig up

Mark my words. TP = RM1.50

Posted by makalingkong > 2017-05-24 18:14 | Report Abuse

Ada untung QR loh

Posted by kudamuda > 2017-05-24 18:17 | Report Abuse

QR result announced..

http://www.bursamalaysia.com/market/listed-companies/company-announcements/5437709

Full year (ended 31Mar17) EPS : 11.23 sen
Full year (ended 31Mar16) EPS : 4.68 sen

Posted by azlan88 > 2017-05-24 19:37 | Report Abuse

Great Result! For FY18, if they maintain RM10 million per quarter, the EPS would easily reach 14cent. Believe the net profit will increase more than RM10 per quarter.

Posted by kancs3118 > 2017-05-24 20:25 | Report Abuse

Kiam siap to the max....just 3 cents dividend !!

Posted by darrenliew > 2017-05-24 21:10 | Report Abuse

AGREES WITH AZLAN.STRONG PROFIT GROWTH FIRMLY ON TRACK.

CLEAR EARNINGS VISIBILITY FROM HIGH UNBILLED SALES (AND ACCUMULATING EVERY MONTH)

WE CAN DEFINITELY SEE INCREASINGLY HIGHER PROFITS IN EACH SEQUENTIAL QUARTER GOING FORWARD. THIS WILL BE ACCOMPANIED BY HIGHER DIVIDENDS RIDING ON INCREASING PROFITABILITY. NOTEWORTHY IT HAS RM325M IN ITS RETAINED PROFITS AC.

ALSO AGREE WITH KANCS3118'S METHOD OF USING THE P.E. RATIO TO ARRIVE AT HIS PRICE TARGET OF 1.51.

PERSONALLY KANCS'S 1.51 IS MY 1ST PRICE TARGET.

MY 2ND PRICE TARGET IS 2.17 BASED ON 50% DISCOUNT ON ITS RNAV OF 4.34

ALSO SUPPORTED BY THE FACT THAT IT IS NOW TRADING AT ITS DEEPLY UNDERVALUED PRICE TO BOOK RATIO(P/B) OF ONLY 0.49x which means its share price will double to around 2.17 (as positive catalysts of robust quarterly profit increases accompanied by higher dividends plus additional growth of its unbilled sales plus progress news for the development of Sg Long project drives up its share price to approach its P/B to 1.0X) in tandem with its peers in the Property Sector

Posted by kancs3118 > 2017-05-24 21:36 | Report Abuse

Kiam siap like hell...just 3 cents dividend

Posted by kudamuda > 2017-05-24 22:08 | Report Abuse

Sure kiam siap lo.. will tell you need working capital for BIG projects ahead... Wonder how will market react tomorrow... Disappointed and sell?

Posted by kancs3118 > 2017-05-24 22:19 | Report Abuse

FY2018 results will definitely be better than FY2017...

Posted by kancs3118 > 2017-05-24 23:25 | Report Abuse

PE 5 good enough

Posted by josephtan > 2017-05-25 00:23 | Report Abuse

slightly disappointed with the dividend, was expecting 4 cents coz FY15 earned 41M give 5 cents :)
anyway, two take-aways

1. contribution from joint venture started to be significant, 20M in FY17 compared to 3M in FY16 AND yet, unbilled sales was replenished with new sales, currently 973M compared to 972M QtoQ. AMAZING!!
2. better margin, 3rd and 4th quarters 16% and 20%, respectively. for high rise, margin should improve after the foundation works

looks like need to wait a little more to realize the unbilled sales

Posted by darrenliew > 2017-05-25 08:53 | Report Abuse

GOOD RESULTS. PROFITS JUMPED UP BY 174% FROM 10M TO 30M . EPS UP FROM 4.7 TO 11.2 SEN. STRONG SEQUENTIAL QUARTERLY/YEARLY PROFITS ON TRACK.

COMPARITIVE FUNDAMENTALS CONFIRMED SYMLIFE THE BEST/MOST UNDERVALUED
====================================================================
SHARE PRICE NTA P/BV P.E. EPS DPS

SYMLIFE 1.05 2.16 0.49x 10.7 11.2 3
malton 1.55 1.65 0.94X 20.3 8.6 3
lbs 2.06 1.73 1.2x 16.0 14.5 6
ecowld 1.62 1.42 1.1x 21.0 8.7 0

Posted by cherry88 > 2017-05-25 09:12 | Report Abuse

Whatever it is...buy on rumour SELL on fact. Despite the strong results, Syndicate had taken the profit and left. It leaves to retailers to "kill each other". Better sell now before too late. Volumn shrink.

Posted by kudamuda > 2017-05-25 09:14 | Report Abuse

If symlife were to give DPS 5.. maybe the price would really appreciate.. :-(

Posted by cherry88 > 2017-05-25 09:24 | Report Abuse

the fact is .....no....anyway....enough lah...take profit and walk away

Posted by hng33 > 2017-05-25 09:35 | Report Abuse

sold back symlife at 1.01 and 1.02, lock contra batch loss, offset by balance earlier batch on paper gain.

Posted by Ya Hoo > 2017-05-25 09:53 | Report Abuse

Quarter revenue still very low which only RM52m. Meaning that still no major contributor from TWY & Star residence as unbilled sales maintain at high level of RM970m.

Posted by CharlesT > 2017-05-25 10:18 | Report Abuse

Selling vol not much....No worries

Posted by kancs3118 > 2017-05-25 10:20 | Report Abuse

oh my .... price drop like bird shit....

But at current price of RM1.00, the PE is at about 8.7.

Posted by kancs3118 > 2017-05-25 12:16 | Report Abuse

This time, die lor...

Posted by nyj > 2017-05-25 12:51 | Report Abuse

For FY17, the recorded total sales was about rm413mil. Currently still have about Rm973mil unbilled sales on 31 March 2017. Additionally in April 2017, they launched another project Suites@Sunway with GDV of rm480mil. So means that the revenue and profit will be keep increasing.

Posted by enid888 > 2017-05-25 15:00 | Report Abuse

From the site progress, we can see that Twy and Star are still at the initial stages of construction. Twy is still at ground level and Star is still at the level less than 10 storeys tall. Bigger amounts of profit will come in at later stages of construction especially when the projects are completed. This FY17, Symlife is making EPS of 11.23 sen. The profits will increase progressively at least for the next 3 years as the developments move to advanced stages.

Posted by nyj > 2017-05-25 15:12 | Report Abuse

The main contributors to revenue and profit were:
- Tijani Ukay (a gated and guarded development consisting 109 units of zero-lot bungalows and 9 units of bungalows in Ulu Kelang);
- TWY Mont' Kiara (a service apartment development consisting 484 units in Mont' Kiara); and
- Elevia Residences (a gated and guarded development consisting 128 units of condominium and 34 units of villas in Taman Tasik
Prima)
Our joint venture, Star Residences also contributed significantly to the Group's profit for the quarter.

From the QR. Although some project still in progress, but they already start collecting the money from the recorded sales.

Posted by Ya Hoo > 2017-05-25 16:00 | Report Abuse

share price will only going up once the major profit start contribute from TWY and Star Residences.

Posted by Ya Hoo > 2017-05-25 16:03 | Report Abuse

otherwise need to wait insider push up the share price before good quarter result out.

Posted by bumperProfit88 > 2017-05-25 20:24 | Report Abuse

FY17 graham number = sqrt(22.5 x 0.1123 x 2.16) = 2.33
FY18 graham number = sqrt(22.5 x 0.15 x 2.28) = 2.77 --> estimated eps 0.15, nta 2.28
accumulate on weaknessssss

Posted by kancs3118 > 2017-05-25 22:05 | Report Abuse

Stupid Symlife

Posted by bumperProfit88 > 2017-05-25 22:38 | Report Abuse

consolidation, good for newcomers like me to join the party :)

Posted by siam8888 > 2017-05-25 23:29 | Report Abuse

Good profit and offer dividend, why the share price dropping??

Posted by kudamuda > 2017-05-26 09:30 | Report Abuse

siam8888, my guess is the result looks "Good & offer dividend", but it's not excited, no positive surprise! Maybe price would hovering around 1.00 till next QR.. If ppl don't want to hold, they would just sell.

Posted by cherry88 > 2017-05-26 11:22 | Report Abuse

Buy back at 90 sen, its support level

Posted by kancs3118 > 2017-05-26 11:56 | Report Abuse

Ohh shit....it is dropping !

Posted by kancs3118 > 2017-05-26 12:01 | Report Abuse

Why why why is it dropping ??? Oh my god

Posted by kancs3118 > 2017-05-26 12:19 | Report Abuse

Ohh my god...a 10 cents drop from an all time high of RM1.16

Posted by Ya Hoo > 2017-05-26 13:46 | Report Abuse

as you said "stupid Symlife"....hahaha...

Posted by nemesis > 2017-05-26 15:07 | Report Abuse

EPS below expectation...Dividend i guess will be only 4 Sen per share...1 bil unbilled sales but earning unimpressive...what is wrong?

Posted by vitac > 2017-05-26 15:12 | Report Abuse

Haha they pin the unit & create the unbilled sales, there is only a few of real buyers...