Posted by ahhuat56 > 2019-10-19 10:53 | Report Abuse

Again, there is nothing wrong to want to make money. But one must do so ethically. Human beings are a different class of creatures that God created. We have conscience, unlike other animals. If the love of money make a man/woman loses his/her basic characteristics of a human being, how sad!

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-19 13:03 | Report Abuse

"If ICAP is wound up, TTB is not hurt. He can manage other funds or other clients and maybe is happier because he does not have to deal with city of london anymore or being attacked by hooligans in the forum like this."

The above is the undisputed top quality intellectual post in I3. Congratulations !

ttb can easily start a new fund for all his ICAP followers to invest if ICAP is wound up. ttb n his followers can make 30% profit from the NAV if ICAP is wound up n of course they are happier with the 30% extra profit from the wound up of ICAP !

Posted by jeydan89 > 2019-10-19 13:23 | Report Abuse

Ya agreed, everyone wants to make money, London also, but must be ethical. if icap wound up, they can go elsewhere easily. Poor novice, small fries investors, aunties, uncles, may need to rely to tips, rumours, or other "so called experts" since can't afford fund manager. No more closed-end fund in Msia, if buy unit trust, before they perform, need to pay fees first...5-6%?? Don't think got any UTs with sustainable track record over 10-15 years.

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-19 13:27 | Report Abuse

From ICAP jump into any UTs managed by our ttb ?

Posted by jeydan89 > 2019-10-19 13:39 | Report Abuse

To be fair, no fund manager is perfect. Even WB make mistakes. Will have dead ducks in the portfolio but if the overall portfolio is still performing, why complain. it is not fair to keep harping on specific stocks and forget about the overall performance.

Posted by jeydan89 > 2019-10-19 14:03 | Report Abuse

Need to pay fees first before UT can perform and also no guarantee, unlike CEF.

Posted by jeydan89 > 2019-10-19 14:08 | Report Abuse

From Ahbah ""CLIM is an investment adviser and does not hold any shares in ICAP, either as nominee or as beneficial owner, and has disclosed clearly how its clients’ shares in ICAP are held."

Based on ICAP Annual Reports and Bursa announcements, London is substantial shareholder but then, they say they are not shareholder.. sounds very confusing

Posted by stockraider > 2019-10-19 14:18 | Report Abuse

NOT TRUE LOH....TTB REPUTATION WILL BE HURT TOO TOO MAH...!!
WITH TTB PUTTING ALMOST 70% MONIES IN FD FOR MORE THAN 5 YRS WITH ALMOST 5 LONG YEARS WITH ALMOST NO INVESTMENT IN EQUITY & COLLECTING FEES WITH NO PAYMENT OF DIV TO ITS SHAREHOLDERS,TTB REPUTATION ALREADY BAD NOW MAH...!!

ICAP CLOSURE WILL MAKE TTB BADDER & DOWN TO THE DRAIN LOH...!!

ANYWAY OUR CAMPAIGN IS NOT WANT TO MAKE TTB LOOK BAD, WE WANT HIM TO MAKE MONIES FOR US & NOT ABUSE HIS POSITION LOH....!!

5 LONG YEAR OF POOR PERFORMANCE IS LONG ENOUGH, WE WANT ICAP TO BE LIQUIDATED FOR ALL LOH....!!

PLEASE SUPPORT CITY OF LONDON LOH.....!!

Posted by ahbah > Oct 19, 2019 1:03 PM | Report Abuse

"If ICAP is wound up, TTB is not hurt. He can manage other funds or other clients and maybe is happier because he does not have to deal with city of london anymore or being attacked by hooligans in the forum like this."

The above is the undisputed top quality intellectual post in I3. Congratulations !

ttb can easily start a new fund for all his ICAP followers to invest if ICAP is wound up. ttb n his followers can make 30% profit from the NAV if ICAP is wound up n of course they are happier with the 30% extra profit from the wound up of ICAP !

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-19 14:34 | Report Abuse

I want dead fish if dead fish is more valuable n give me more money than live fish.

Posted by stockraider > 2019-10-19 14:39 | Report Abuse

I M QUITE SURPRISE WITH THE FINDINGS THAT ICAP CANNOT EVEN BEAT KAF TACTICAL FUNDS PERFORMANCE OVER A VERY LONG PERIOD OF 15 YEARS LOH:

THIS is DESPITE ICAP close end OPERATING funds HAS ALL THE ADVANTAGES COMPARE TO KAF TACTICAL OPEN ENDED FUND LIKE:

1. Icap no need to set aside fund for redemption of share like kaf open ended fund.
thus icap can invest very long time whereas kaf need to take care of potential redemption of unit holders.

2. kaf tactical funds pays dividend whereas icap do not

3. kaf funds run by not so famous fund managers, whereas icap run by famous owner TTB loh...!!

4. kaf has many layers of review & bottleneck b4 a buy or sell can be made, whereas icap can do very much faster if big boss TTB says go loh.!

6. Icap can even borrow to invest more, if it want to but kaf cannot loh.!

5. Operating open ended funds has more handicaps in terms of return compare to icap bcos more constraints loh...!!

I m sure up to 2013 Icap actually beat KAF flat in terms of performance, but then TTB chicken out next 5 years putting almost all monies into fixed deposits, this is where this kaf catch up & beat Icap loh..!!

TTB is very selfish is put almost all monies in fixed deposits, bcos this will ensure he collect fat management fees, no matter what happen disregarding interest of unit holders loh...!!

Please support London to liquidate this useless ICAP loh...!!

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-19 14:42 | Report Abuse

Which fish U like to own ?

1. a live fish at Rm2.43 or

2. a dead fish at Rm3.21

Posted by stockraider > 2019-10-19 14:46 | Report Abuse

Of course Rm 3.21....then u must back city of london to bungkus icap loh......!!

Posted by ahbah > Oct 19, 2019 2:42 PM | Report Abuse

Which fish U like to own ?

1. a live fish at Rm2.43 or

2. a dead fish at Rm3.21

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-19 15:00 | Report Abuse

I no mind if my live fish die next year because the dead fish will return me Rm3.21 while now the life fish cost me Rm2.43 only.

Posted by calvintaneng > 2019-10-19 15:06 |

Post removed.Why?

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-19 15:17 | Report Abuse

Thanks, all oredi got your message loud n clear.

NetX ... the undisputed Bursa champion soon !

NetX ... it is the gold mine in Bursa !

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-19 15:21 | Report Abuse

Our beloved country on track to make FLYING CARS soon !

Dr M said that.

Hidup Malaysia !

Posted by jeydan89 > 2019-10-19 15:24 | Report Abuse

Stockraider : I M QUITE SURPRISE WITH THE FINDINGS THAT ICAP CANNOT EVEN BEAT KAF TACTICAL FUNDS PERFORMANCE OVER A VERY LONG PERIOD OF 15 YEARS LOH:

Where u get your fact? From the websites, cumulative perf of KTF since launch in Sep 2004 - 17 Oct 2019 is 114.17% , as at 30 Sep 2019, ICAP NAV cumulative perf is double of KTF, even share price beats KTF. Are u seeing the right KTF??

Don't simply bash TB lah and please STOP confusing others....there are genuine novice investors here who want to listen to OBJECTIVE and UNBIASED views!!!

Posted by stockraider > 2019-10-19 15:50 |

Post removed.Why?

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-19 15:54 | Report Abuse

I am a novice investor here. All please no corn me. Thanks.

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-19 16:05 | Report Abuse

According to the Federation of Investment Managers Malaysia data, despite the fall in AUM last year, the fund management industry saw an average compound annual growth rate of 12.8% in the past decade.

https://themalaysianreserve.com/2019/07/05/fund-managers-see-rm32b-loss-as-investment-values-drop/

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-19 16:06 | Report Abuse

12.8 % ... gross or net ?

Posted by stockraider > 2019-10-19 16:10 | Report Abuse

Please note 2018 to 2019 is 1 of the worse performance....overall icap make a negative NAV after taking into accounts all its dividend it obtain the investment & it did not distribute anything to its shareholders loh....!!

Icap performance in fye 2019 is even worse than klci index loh!!

Posted by jeydan89 > 2019-10-19 16:15 | Report Abuse

Ahbah, u don also con me (or us) with your dead fish theory.

Dead fish is dead and gone forever..eat very full one time only then go hungry again

Live fish can grew and maybe "give birth" to more fishes......sustainability for the investors..

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-19 16:22 | Report Abuse

Agreed.

Posted by stockraider > 2019-10-19 16:25 |

Post removed.Why?

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-19 16:37 | Report Abuse

Do we need a FM to put our money in the bank for 5 years ? or

Do we need an office boy to put our money in the bank for 5 yrs ?

Who no know how to put their money in the bank for 5 yrs ?

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-19 16:44 | Report Abuse

"Looking at the chart below, we can see that Property Index (at 770) is fast approaching the support at the horizontal line at 750. After a drop of nearly 50% from the peak at 1500, property stocks are fairly attractive."

Property Index down 50%, any cheap property stock to invest now for

long term ?

Please give some advice. Thanks.

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-19 16:47 | Report Abuse

Some property bosses already eat all their stocks like Daiman n Selangor Properties. Kbunai, YTL Land.

Posted by ChiChing > 2019-10-19 23:37 | Report Abuse

Inferiority Complex “Symptoms”
1. Social Withdrawal
2. Fault Finding
3. Performance Anxiety
4. Craving for Attention
5. Increased Sensitivity

Just sharing here
https://www.thrivetalk.com/inferiority-complex/

Posted by ChiChing > 2019-10-20 00:38 | Report Abuse

Inferiority Complex “Symptoms”
1. Social Withdrawal
2. Fault Finding
3. Performance Anxiety
4. Craving for Attention
5. Increased Sensitivity

Just sharing here
https://www.thrivetalk.com/inferiority-complex/

Posted by JohnDough > 2019-10-20 20:40 |

Post removed.Why?

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-20 21:12 | Report Abuse

"But ICAP is by far the safest product in the market and is the only transparent product with the best returns over a comparable period."

ICAP .... the safest product ... 100% correct !

ICAP is the mkt darling now all want to court !

ICAP is so very pretty no one can ignore !

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-21 09:30 | Report Abuse

" Posted by jeydan89 > Oct 19, 2019 4:15 PM | Report Abuse

Ahbah, u don also con me (or us) with your dead fish theory.

Dead fish is dead and gone forever..eat very full one time only then go hungry again

Live fish can grew and maybe "give birth" to more fishes......sustainability for the investors.."

If the live fish is priced like the dead fish, then all including

London will take good care of the live fish to ensure it lives

forever to give further birth to more new born babies !

Posted by iPilot50 > 2019-10-21 10:09 | Report Abuse

My bad that the numbers are reversed. Kenanga's cumulative return is 237.66% while KAF's return is 94.30%. But KAF tactical fund has not paid dividend in the past 6 years. And you say open end fund got so much bottlenecks and handicaps. How do you know and why should I believe you? Are you just saying things you don't know? So in a way you're also lying.

Posted by stockraider > Oct 19, 2019 3:50 PM | Report Abuse

Raider no bluff u mah jayden, the info is obtain from this sohai ipilot50 a staunch supporter of ttb mah....!!

Posted by jeydan89 > Oct 19, 2019 3:24 PM | Report Abuse

Stockraider : I M QUITE SURPRISE WITH THE FINDINGS THAT ICAP CANNOT EVEN BEAT KAF TACTICAL FUNDS PERFORMANCE OVER A VERY LONG PERIOD OF 15 YEARS LOH:

Where u get your fact? From the websites, cumulative perf of KTF since launch in Sep 2004 - 17 Oct 2019 is 114.17% , as at 30 Sep 2019, ICAP NAV cumulative perf is double of KTF, even share price beats KTF. Are u seeing the right KTF??

Don't simply bash TB lah and please STOP confusing others....there are genuine novice investors here who want to listen to OBJECTIVE and UNBIASED views!!!

Posted by iPilot50 > Oct 17, 2019 4:33 PM | Report Abuse

Let me educate you about some other major funds in Malaysia. Let me give you 2 examples: KAF Tactical Fund and Kenanga Balanced Fund. To be honest it might not be completely fair to compare since the KAF and Kenanga's funds are open-end while iCapital is closed-end (Do your own result to know the difference. Lazy to explain), but they follow the same principles in rewarding their investors. I also chose these 2 funds because both were established close to the year 2005(KAF was 2004 and Kenanga was 2001) and they have similar investing philosophy, which is medium to long term. Current iCapital cumulative return is 231.15% since inception, while KAF's and Kenanga's cumulative return is 237.66% and 94.30% respectively as of August 2019(Find the information yourself). Now KAF's fund beat iCapital, but only a small margin. To note, this is not to say I'm discouraging people to buy KAF's and Kenanga's funds. In fact I think it is admirable that they make millions for their investors considering the nature of their funds. But you can clearly see the performance. If you can find another fund that has a similar inception date and investment philosophy that beats iCapital, then I'll salute you. But I still won't change my mind that iCapital's performance is good.

Posted by Quincy > 2019-10-21 10:36 | Report Abuse

@ahbah ok la boss, since my wife is holding icapital.biz Berhad shares, and after attending the AGM, here is my 20 cents la especially after attending the AGM la.

1) On cash holdings

I used to agree with you also la, hold so much cash why my wife need to pay Mr. Tan to hold cash for her right? Recently, I was making an effort to understand an American company and got to know one of the largest shareholder is Baupost Group, led by Seth Klarman la. Dude has more than 15% CAGR over 33 years, which would multiply your initial capital by a minumum of 100x la....think this sums the logic of cash holdings quite well la..

https://valuehunter.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/klarman_cash.pdf

I personally hold very few stocks that have done relatively well for me la...United Plantation, Can-One, AirAsia, Hibiscus and Hartalega la...but I think I was lucky only, punted Johore Tin also thanks to CharlesT. My wife and I are retirees and I believe you are probably aware of the average profile of iCap investors also. If you mapped U.S. non-financial corporation's market capitalization with its subsequent 12-year return, you are looking at very strong explanatory power of valuation on long-term returns. Why U.S. you would ask? Because Malaysia where got give so deep data and whenever something bad happens to U.S., we also kena la...With the valuation metric now pointing towards close to 0% return over the subsequent 12 years, I would be inclined to hold cash also la so I don't think Mr. Tan is timing the market per se but rather asset valuation does not offer sufficient margin-of-safety la...In fact, the valuation metric started pointing to an expected 4% return over the subsequent 12 years since 2012 and I was pre-disposed to hold cash as well la since I am taking quite some risk compared to FD...few months ago CIMB even offered Islamic FD with interest >5% p.a....got promotion they say... Should I penalize him for capital preservation while returning my wife 9% p.a. (NAV) since inception...I don't know leh...I always imagined also if he is fully invested on those same holdings, he could probably generate >15% easily but given the options available in the market with most unit trusts being fully invested generating +-8% per annum... I think I give credit to him for that especially when you think about how his investors are mostly retirees la...

2) On Parkson.....

I also questioned my wife and myself on his decisions on Parkson la..but then my dating experiences taught me about "can't see the forest for the trees" la... Seth Klarman built a ~9% stake in Antero Resources starting from 2014 at a price of $50++ all the way down to $15++ and now the stock is trading at $2.55....takkan I wanna say Seth Klarman is stupid..quite sure a lot of professional fund managers in U.S. are not even confident of spouting that.. plus Mr. Tan stood to his promise of deploying cash when opportunities arose and he did significantly into SAM Engineering... I do not understand the business well enough la but this is among Icon8888's largest holding la and he expects the share to trade at RM15...so this one give credit also la..

https://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/icon8888/115861.jsp

3) On missing out the semiconductor run....

This one I personally also missed la haha because I cannot understand at all but thank god I participated a bit on the furniture export run la..the last thing my wife and I would want to hear from our fund manager would be that he is investing in hot stocks he barely able to understand..this 1 I fully agree with Philip's idea that one should understand the business intuitively first la.. although I also tangan gatal looking at Frontken..

4) Compensation

Can't say much about this la since I do not know their cost structure that well but their employee count is pretty high based on what we saw in the AGM...on the performance, hard to tell in 15 years especially the past 5 years when even American value funds under-performed..at one time frame, even Seth Klarman underperformed the index by 50% only to emerge a winner later on...I addicted to OTB also la but my wife is happy with >7% p.a. without worrying any risk of losses...if she experienced OTB's 2018 temporary crash I will have a tough year la..

My 200 cents ;) still waiting for @CharlesT to tell me what he thinks about Can-One Bhd going forward.....

Posted by jeydan89 > 2019-10-21 11:21 | Report Abuse

Thank you ipilot50 for clarifying that icap performance is actually more than double of KTF, as at 18 Oct 2019, icap : 232% KTF : 114%.

Even share price beats KTF, icap 150.5% as at 18 Oct 2019.

Both charging 1.5% annual mgmt fees, expense ratio almost the same, KTF has sales charge of 1.75%, can max up to 6.50% of NAV per unit.. icap just brokerage fees, very low now, btw 0.3% - 0.7% I think.

Please note, I'm stating the facts, no bias here....

Posted by ahhuat56 > 2019-10-21 11:25 | Report Abuse

Out of curiosity Ahbah, how come your English suddenly improve some much ? No more broken English, and with perfect grammar ? Amazing!

Posted by glittercat > 2019-10-21 11:45 | Report Abuse

actually I don't understand eh. iCap is trading at a discount right. So when you buy you buy cheaper also. Then when you sell you want to do away with the discount? A bit like you buy clothes from uniqlo during time sales then ask if can refund at original price not meh

Posted by jeydan89 > 2019-10-21 11:58 | Report Abuse

The "dead" fish won't be RM3.21 by next year lah, may be higher, so still want to sell??
Why not wait for NAV to grow more, I'm still young, can wait, hehe....

Also, icap Board has asked London to reduce stake as per the Bursa announcement.
If we join them, we may be in sinking boat, especially if regulators take action on London for breaking the Msian law!!

Posted by ahhuat56 > 2019-10-21 12:48 | Report Abuse

Glittercat, ICap has been trading at a consistent premium since listing until the 2008 global financial crisis. Subsequently, the discount narrows to about 3% until City of London started buying in 2010. Since then, the discount started to widen and has maintained at around 20% for about 10 years. There are a number of things I don't understand. Firstly, why CLIM bought so much, the discount did not narrow ? You are talking more than 20% of the shares !!!!! Secondly, the discount is a straight line. It is like a person on tightrope walking, holding a balancing beam, making sure that it is maintaining at about 20% less he falls. How peculiar !!!

Posted by ahhuat56 > 2019-10-21 12:53 | Report Abuse

ICAP board is doing the right thing by asking CLIM to observe the law.

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-21 13:31 | Report Abuse

Got go to school to learn Inklis lah.

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-21 13:35 | Report Abuse

Regulators got take action ? Please paste regulators action here. Thanks.

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-21 13:36 | Report Abuse

I no sell. I want to return to get the dead fish price lah.

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-21 13:56 | Report Abuse

"ICAP board is doing the right thing by asking CLIM to observe the law."

Korrect, take London to court to face the law if London no observe the law. Sokong !

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-21 14:22 | Report Abuse

Since April/May 2011, I have been bearish on equities globally, including that of Bursa Malaysia. My bearish views have not changed one iota. The best times are when there are screaming buys. The stocks are so undervalued that they actually scream at you to buy them. I am patiently waiting for these.

Read more at https://www.thestar.com.my/business/business-news/2011/10/01/your-10-questions-with-tan-teng-boo#2UcHQtRg2aUpobfA.99

Posted by Blackjack21 > 2019-10-21 17:26 | Report Abuse

@ahbah Would you like a piece of brisket to go with your brexit?

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-21 18:24 | Report Abuse

A pkt of nasi lemak going with kopi O kaw is still the best.

Posted by FreeStyle > 2019-10-21 19:35 | Report Abuse

wow! it took me a while to read through the messages. Thanks CharlesT, ahhuat56 for the advice.
after reading through so many heated messages, i guess i have to stick to my objective and reasons of investing in ICAP, which is long term value investing. I am not a big investor, but i am looking for an investment that will help grow and more importantly protect my capital, which is meant for retirement. and it took me a while to find ICAP, and TTB. I cant be following everyone's advice, i have limited resources. I have to be sure of what i am investing in. This City of London seems to create a lot of problems in ICAP, while i guess big investor like them aims for quick gain, i do not know if City of London will take interests of the small investors like me into consideration (i highly doubt so). Small investor like me cannot afford to play the game with them. i just pray for TTB to continue manage ICAP according to the fund's investment strategy and objective, so i can be sure that my investments will be safe.

Posted by ahbah > 2019-10-21 21:02 | Report Abuse

Does Icapital.biz outperform Berkshire Hathaway Inc.?

http://bursastocktalk.blogspot.com/2014/12/does-icapitalbiz-outperform-berkshire.html